The things they do in the name of religion

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Religious zealotry over the centuries has been directly responsible for countless deaths, imprisonments, needless suffering, torturings, and the oppression of people on grounds of sex, race, colour, sexuality or belief.

Yes that is absolutely true. But how many crimes were committed NOT in the name of religion? There I can provide you with a much longer list. Besides, many countries for centuries were able to establish a relativey peaceful culture based on the rules of their religion. Dont forget that relgion made people respect certain rules even if noone would have ever caught them for a crime.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Yes that is absolutely true. But how many crimes were committed NOT in the name of religion? There I can provide you with a much longer list. Besides, many countries for centuries were able to establish a relativey peaceful culture based on the rules of their religion.

Please read the whole article instead of picking bits out of it that are dealt with later on. The fact that not all crimes are religiously based is not disputed.

Quote[/b] ]Dont forget that relgion made people respect certain rules even if noone would have ever caught them for a crime.

Evidence?

I disagree.

Don't forget that threatening to flog them to death made slaves obey rules. Does that mean that threatening to flog people is a good thing?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

God has revealed to me that those doing battle for Allah and our country and meet death will immediately go to Heaven.

-The Ayatollah Khomeini (1984)

God is on our side, and Satan is on the side of the United States.

-Saddam Hussein

Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.

-Jimmy Swaggart (former pop preacher)

Sickness and disease will be a part of life of this planet until Jesus comes back.

-Pat Robertson

I know there are some Christians who believe that war and their participation in it are morally wrong. While I respect their views and must allow them to follow their consciences, I do not believe the Bible teaches pacifism.

-Pat Robertson

Whenever the civil government forbids the practice of things that God has commanded us to do, or tells us to do things He has commanded us not to do, then we are on solid ground in disobeying the government and rebelling against it.

-Pat Robertson

Those who are not Christians go to a place of suffering and torment called hell.

-Pat Robertson

The Bible talks about everlasting fire and eternal darkness when it describes hell... We do know that hell is real and forever.

-Pat Robertson

The heart of man is "deceitful and desperately wicked."

-Pat Robertson

Satan is a tool of God's love in the sense that he forces us to see God's loving patience.

-Pat Robertson

The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.

-Pat Robertson

If you go all the way back to the days just following creation, men lived nine hundred years or more.

-Pat Robertson

He [Jesus] had the ability to walk through doors, to travel vast distances in an instant, and to ascent into heaven.

-Pat Robertson

Therefore the spiritual standard for America would be the gospel of Jesus and everything in the Old and New Testaments.

-Pat Robertson

Fornication is sex between two unmarried people.

-Pat Robertson

My personal feeling is that oral sex is "against nature."

-Pat Robertson

The strategy against the American radical left should be the same as General Douglas MacArthur employed against the Japanese in the Pacific . . . blast the individuals out of their power bunkers with hand-to-hand combat. The battle to regain the soul of America won't be pleasant, but we will win it."

-Pat Robertson

There will never be world peace until God's house and God's people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world. How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy moneychangers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?

-Pat Robertson

Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

-Pat Robertson

The key in terms of mental ability is chess. There's never been a woman Grand Master chess player. Once you get one, then I'll buy some of the feminism..."

-Pat Robertson [According to the Chess Federation of the U.S. there were already two women Grand Masters at that time, both from Georgia. Since Robertson's gaffe, at least three more women became Grand Masters.]

The inability or unwillingness to hate makes a person worthless. If we do not hate detestable things, the quality of our character is suspect. The Bible commands that we hate.

-H. A. (Buster) Dobbs, Editor of Firm Foundation magazine and Church of Christ preacher, from the June 1994 issue.

The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind and desperately in need of their Messiah and Savior.)

-Rev. Jerry Falwell (from his book Listen, America!)

The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country.

-Rev. Jerry Falwell

I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!

-Rev. Jerry Falwell

Is he [the Antichrist] alive and here today? Probably. Because when he appears during the Tribulation period he will be a full-grown counterfeit of Christ. Of course he'll be Jewish. Of course he'll pretend to be Christ. And if in fact the Lord is coming soon, and he'll be an adult at the presentation of himself, he must be alive somewhere today.''

-Rev. Jerry Falwell at a conference in Kingsport, Tenn., 14 Jan. 1999

The Bible tells us that the unbelievers will go into endless punishment.

-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)

Christ, who came meek and mild to save us from pain and suffering, was the One who talked more about hell than any other person in Scripture.

-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)

Christianity teaches that the human race is depraved, fallen, and sinful.

-D. James Kennedy (Why I Believe, World Publishing, 1980)

I believe this notion of the separation of church and state was the figment of some infidel's imagination.

-Rev. W. A. Criswell (Dallas, 1984)

I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

-President George H. W. Bush (the First), during an August 27, 1987 interview by Rob Sherman

"Execute Murderers and Abortionists."

-Bumper sticker on anti-abortionist John Burt's car

I can't help it when what I do inspires somebody to go off the deep end.

-John Burt, anti-abortionist

I talk to my only friend Jesus our "LORD"! I know "JESUS" understands my terrible desires and ect. I have tords little boys! And the main reason I murdered them little "BOYS", is because our society is so "AGAINST" the fact of "CHILDREN-DOING-SEX" together or with anybody! I believe children should be "ABLE" to do sex! And I can "ARGUE" that all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court! "SEX" is a great "GIFT" that Jesus gave us all!!!!

-Freddy Goode, serial killer, in a letter to one of his lawyers [misspellings, his].

If religious feeling is put in opposition to social change, then it does become an opium, but if it is joined to the struggle for social change then it is a wonderful medicine.

-Fidel Castro (Meeting With Evangelicals, 1990)

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners... But for that very reason, I was shown mercy so that in me... Jesus Christ might display His unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the king eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.

-Jeffrey Dahmer, convicted serial killer, in a statement to the court, Milwaukee, WI, February 17, 1992

My children, Michael and Alex, are with our Heavenly Father now, and I know that they will never be hurt again. As a mom, that means more than words could ever say. . . My children deserve to have the best, and now they will. . . I have put my total faith in God, and he will take care of me.

-Susan Smith, who drowned her two children, in her confession letter, Nov. 1994

"...a noble practice which does honor to women."

-Sheik Gad Al Haq Ali Gad Al Haq (explaining Mohammed's law for removing part or all of a girl's clitoris to reduce her sexual appetite)

We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against abortionists is justifiable homicide.

-Paul Hill, killer of abortionist doctor

We need to do more than win an election or win the House or win the presidency, my friends: we need to make this beloved country of ours God's country once again."

-Pat Buchanan at the Christian Coalition 1995 Road to Victory Conference, as reported in the October 1995 issue of Church and State.

I want to be invisible . . . I paint my face and travel at night. You don't know it's over until you're in a body bag. You don't know until election night."

-Ralph Reed, Director of the Christian Coalition, from the Virginian Pilot and Ledger Star, 11/9/91.

I imagine every Christian would agree that we need to remove humanism from the public schools. There is only one way to accomplish this: Abolish the public schools.

-The Reverend Robert L. Thoburn

I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good . . . our goal is a Christian nation. We have the biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism...

-Randall Terry, Director of Operation Rescue, from The News Sentinel (Ft. Wayne, IN, 16 August, 1993.)

Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies.

-Randall Terry

Suppose that you, a religious person, decide to rent out an apartment over your garage. Along comes a possible renter who seems to meet all of your requirements, except that he lets slip, in casual conversation, that he is a Satanist. . . . If you follow the law ... then you must allow on your property activities that your religion forbids. You might even fear the hellfire. . . . As we have seen, the Supreme Court has made such a mess of the right to exercise one's religion freely that there is little chance the claim for an exemption would succeed. So you would, in the name of nondiscrimination, be stuck with the Satanist.

-Stephen L. Carter (The Culture of Disbelief, pp. 136-137, 1993)

Both the Magisterium of the Church. . . . and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action. The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.

-Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1994

God will not give Japan and Europe the honor of bringing down the United States. This honor God will bestow upon the Muslims.

-Louis Farrakhan, 1997

Before you call me crazy, these wheels will be seen all over America. You will look up one day and see them, and I don't want you to be terrified. They're your friends, black man.

-Louis Farrakhan who claims to have been brought to earth by a UFO

Screw the Buddhists and kill the Muslims.

-Henry Jordan, South Carolina board of education (when another board member said the displaying of the Ten Commandemtns in public schools might offend students of other religions)

``I am sorry for the people I killed and the people I hurt. The reason you don't see any more tears is I have been forgiven by God.''

-Luke Woodham (the teenager who shot and killed two high school students and wounding seven, after his conviction on June 13th, 1998)

" I know that Jehovah will take care of all of them in the next life. . ."

"Please know that I love Leigh Ann, Matthew and Mychelle with all of my heart. If Jehovah is willing, I would like to see all of them again in the resurrection, to have a second chance."

-Mark O. Barton, the Atlanta killer of 14 people (including his family), in a letter that explains his feelings for his murdered wife and children

I told all four [Congressional leaders] that there are going to be some times where we don't agree with each other, but that's OK. If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator.

-George W. Bush (the Second), in a news conference at the U.S. Capitol, from CNN news, 18 Dec. 2000

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

-Jerry Falwell (13 Sep. 2001 on the Christian Broadcasting Network explaining who helped in the World Trade Center & Pentagon tragedy.)

This is America, God has sent one of the attacks by God and has attacked one of its best buildings. And this is America filled with fear from the north, south, east and west, thank God.

-Osama bin Laden, 7 Oct. 2001

It's been a fabulous year for Laura and me.

-George W. Bush, December 2001, three months after the World Trade Center attacks.

My answer is bring 'em on.

-George W. Bush, challenging militants attacking U.S. forces in Iraq, July 3, 2003

Well, I can't see any problems that religion might bring at all. Looks like these people were all totally motivated by politics

[theavonlady 2]

Well, I can't see any problems that religion might bring at all.  Looks like these people were all totally motivated by politics  

Hey! Where's my tribe?!

[Balschoiw 0]

here Avon

Anyway I fail to see the sense in your post Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX.

Believe has always been put in for policy reasons.

You have a large group of believers in your country, tribe, etc and you adress them that way. It is abused by politicians to unify or create virtual differences between groups of people.

Well, you should be smart enough to realize that and draw your conclusions, but that doesn´t mean religion is a bad thing. It´s the things done "in the name" of religion that make believes bad sometimes.

[Major Fubar 0]

I firmly that believe that in a theortical world where the concept of religion was never invented, most people who are religious zealots or commit violence in the name of religion in our world would still be the same in this theortical world, just their energy and beliefs would be diverted to something else (i.e. state, country, personal power etc.).

It boils down to state-of-mind and personality...

My 2 cents.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

let me guess who is gonna reply first! hmmmm?

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Believe has always been put in for policy reasons.

You have a large group of believers in your country, tribe, etc and you adress them that way. It is abused by politicians to unify or create virtual differences between groups of people.

Well, you should be smart enough to realize that and draw your conclusions, but that doesn´t mean religion is a bad thing. It´s the things done "in the name" of religion that make believes bad sometimes.

True, the fact that politicians can abuse the credulity of religious believers to manipulate them doesn't make it a bad thing, but that is not my point nor what I said. There are other reasons, which have already been stated, as to why religions are bad.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

You mean that I'm not a US citizen because I don't believe in the "Invisible Man With 10 Special Rules" story ?

Quote[/b] ]He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

Fundamentalist Muslim Disease Control! Doesn't it sound effective ?

Quote[/b] ]Our goal must be simple. We must have a Christian nation built on God's law, on the Ten Commandments. No apologies.

But according to the Constitution, the US government can't favor any one religion. So we'd have to use all religious laws, not just Christian laws. Let's start cutting off the clitorises of Christian women ASAP!

Quote[/b] ]Screw the Buddhists and kill the Muslims.

You forgot, we need to feed the Christians to the lions.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I firmly that believe that in a theortical world where the concept of religion was never invented, most people who are religious zealots or commit violence in the name of religion in our world would still be the same in this theortical world, just their energy and beliefs would be diverted to something else (i.e. state, country, personal power etc.).

My 2 cents.

And I am convinced that without the divisive power or religion, without the flawed thinking and 'reasoning' it provides and promulgates, without the seductive power of things such as '72 virgins in the afterlife,' there would be FAR, FAR less violence, intolerance and cruelty in the world.

[Major Fubar 0]

I firmly that believe that in a theortical world where the concept of religion was never invented, most people who are religious zealots or commit violence in the name of religion in our world would still be the same in this theortical world, just their energy and beliefs would be diverted to something else (i.e. state, country, personal power etc.).

My 2 cents.

And I am convinced that without the divisive power or religion, without the flawed thinking and 'reasoning' it provides and promulgates, without the seductive power of things such as '72 virgins in the afterlife,'  there would be FAR, FAR less violence, intolerance and cruelty in the world.

Well, I guess we'll have to disagree on that point.

As an aside, I think there are probably just as many people who obey basic moral rules (i.e. thou shalt not steal etc.) due to a fear of punishment in an afterlife who would be less moral without religion.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]without the seductive power of things such as '72 virgins in the afterlife,'

That's definitely one of the main problems of religion. People want to do religious violence, and they're spurred on by beliefs that their souls are immortal, that they'll stand next to God, that they'll receive 72 virgins, etc...

Edit - BTW, does anyone know what happens when all 72 virgins are no longer virgins? Do you get free refills?  

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

As an aside, I think there are probably just as many people who obey basic moral rules (i.e. thou shalt not steal etc.) due to a fear of punishment in an afterlife who would be less moral without religion.

Such as who?

Sounds like nonsense to me.

[Scorpio 0]

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

SOURCE?! I havn't seen anywhere that he said that. I do smell bullshit.

[edit] Ahh sorry, it's actually true he said that...just checked some other sources. Sick and twisted, this guy.

[shinRaiden 0]

Obviously the volunteer-supported interdenominational foodbanks of small-town USA (~three in my town of ~15k), the donation of the suborned offerings to humanitarian relief efforts worldwide, the work of Jewish groups like Zaka and Avon's group, true islamic charities working to build hospices and orphanages, are all deviant from the "true" course of religion, as they don't get reported much in the media.

If you'd like, I could subjectively post snippets from mother theresa and others who have spent their entire life serving the poor and needy, and ignore all the rest of people who claim to be religious. Wouldn't that be just as representative of the truth?

[miles teg 1]

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

SOURCE?! I havn't seen anywhere that he said that. I do smell bullshit.

[edit] Ahh sorry, it's actually true he said that...just checked some other sources. Sick and twisted, this guy.

Wow! I had never heard that. That is pretty sick. One of the problems with the Shi'ite is that they treat their Ayatollahs like a Pope or something and are supposed to abide by what their Ayatollah decrees. So I'm sure alot of Iranians are happily humping sheep.

Wait... I was born in Iran.... Hmmm.... "Baaaaaaaaaah!".

Lambchops anyone?

LOL!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[miles teg 1]

Obviously the volunteer-supported interdenominational foodbanks of small-town USA (~three in my town of ~15k), the donation of the suborned offerings to humanitarian relief efforts worldwide, the work of Jewish groups like Zaka and Avon's group, true islamic charities working to build hospices and orphanages, are all deviant from the "true" course of religion, as they don't get reported much in the media.

If you'd like, I could subjectively post snippets from mother theresa and others who have spent their entire life serving the poor and needy, and ignore all the rest of people who claim to be religious. Wouldn't that be just as representative of the truth?

Yes but those peaceful, tree-hugging religious people are all a bunch of liberal hippies who are boring.  

Kalishnakov wielding, chest-beating, bomb-blowing, suicidal maniac religious people are so much more entertaining and they give great ratings for TV news networks and yield increased newspaper readership.  

Sadly peace just doesn't sell.   Peace is boring.  Peace is shown in the media to lack passion or excitement.   Peace is just TOO DAMN HARD!!!  Why the hell should I work at getting to know my enemy and loving him and fighting every instinct in the core of my soul that tells me to KILL MY ENEMY???

Why should I not avenge the deaths of my countrymen? Why should I not fight for my religion like the Imams tell me to in glorious righteous battle with eternal paradise as my reward? (Pretend you are a Samurai warrior when thinking about this question.)

 

It is just so much easier and SOOOO much more satisfying to kill my enemy in the most brutal fashion possible and without mercy.

I am partly being sarcastic but I'm also being honest that this is what humanity is facing.  WAR IS ROMANTIC!!!!

War is *part* of the essence of human behavior and telling people not to fight is like telling people not to have sex.  

Some humans have the capacity to understand others, to forgive, and to discipline their urges for violence.  

Others do not.

Peace has to be taught...it has to be institutionalized...and right now neither the Middle East or America has anything remotely close to a culture of peace.   Both regions have highly war-like cultures where violence and the warrior-culture is highly esteemed.  

Of coarse this is a huge generalization... sadly there is a miniority in both regions that value peace and communication and that actually try to stick the essence of their religious beliefs and ideals by practicing peace and compassion to their fellow human beings.   But these are few and far between.  

Sadly these types are not the ones seeking power.  It is the power hungry and the warlike people on both sides that talk the loudest and are the most popular because they can rally people's fears and anger and harness them into a potent political power and violence.   That is what we see Al-Qaeda doing and that is what we see the Bush Administration doing.  Even now despite the fact that most of the reasons for invading Iraq have turned out to be lies, many Americans don't care and still believe those initial reasons are valid.

Our boys are dying their and terrorism is on the rise around the world.... now Americans are beginning to feel that we are in a fight for the survival of freedom and democracy against the commies...ooops I mean Muslims who are trying to suppress freedom and democracy.  

It's a nice easy and simple way of thinking and makes everything crystal clear when you see it that way.  Muslims become the enemy.   Vice versa for Muslims who believe every American and Jew anywhere in the world is marked for death because in some mysterious way they are supporting Israel and oppression of Palistinians...and so therefore are as guilty as an Israeli soldier blowing away some Palistinian woman or something.  

To them its so clear and simple and it is THEY who are fighting for the freedom of all Muslims and for the survival of Islam as they believe it is being attacked on all sides by Israel, America, and to a lesser extent, Europe.  

This belief is spreading like wildfire and if something is not done to stop it, we are going to see some MAJOR terrorist attacks within the United States and Europe.   I believe the next one in the US will likely originate in Canada which is a haven for radical militant Muslims.  

Even here in America, there is TONS of uncontrolled propaganda flowing in from the Middle East via the internet to the Middle Eastern and Islamic communities here in the US.  

Most of it is poorly understood by American politicians and intelligence agencies so they tend to ignore it cuz its full of too much religious philosophy and its in Arabic or some other Middle Eastern language and we don't have enough translators....US politicians are also afraid of running into "freedom of speech" arguements if they try to ban such propoganda.  

But Muslims in Europe, America, and Canada don't even need the propaganda...they can see fellow Muslims being killed every day on the evening news, many of which are innocent civilians.... and it forces them to ask themselves the question of whether or not they should be trying to protect those innocent Muslims who are being killed in the various conflicts around the world.   Their faith comes before country or nationalism (at least its supposed to in Islam).  

But then they must also balance this with the fact that they also see these terrorists killing fellow Muslims.... and they must either reject such people and ideology, or they must rationalize it by saying that "these dead Muslims were probably hypocrits and not real Muslims so Allah was punishing them."    Or they just fall somewhere in the middle and try and help with charity work in the Middle East helping the poor, orphans, and the injuired of these conflicts while participating in anti-war and/or anti Israeli protests.  

Sadly America is not too keen on addressing moderate Muslims who could go either way in this conflict.  Instead our foreign policies are driving these moderates into the arms of the militant Islamic radicals.  

We simply are not addressing the roots of this war on terror and it will be to our peril.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[shinRaiden 0]

Spot on. We have the rabble-rousers on all sides hijacking the pulpits and podiums getting folks all riled up, never mind the fact that their holy text looks like the movie ransom notes of all the cutout text pasted on a sheet of paper, compared to the holy writ they claim to cite.

Ok, here's a little thought. When I was in Israel a few years back, I noticed some guys peeing on the wall. I don't recall seeing any other human peeing in public at any other time I was there. So can I assume that all palestinians are barbarians who don't know how to use toilets? Of course not, that is rediculous. And so is Baron's attempt to slander all people of faith, including citing Jimmy Swaggart, who publicly admitted to not practicing what he preached. To me, Jimmy Swaggart's idiocy is more a reflection of his personal attitude and commitment, than any reflection on his message.

If 1001 monkeys dancing on a keyboard type out a message that says it is important to be compassionate to others, is that message bogus due to the source, or is it still true despite the source?

[shinRaiden 0]

One of the motivating factors of fundamentalists who determine to act as judge, jury, and executioner in place of God, contrary to their own religous texts, is the strong belief that the society, (particularly the US) has been hijacked by those groups and persons seeking to war against God.

For example, going back up to the quote from the catechism on self-pleasuring, the catechism states that for orthodox followers of catholicism, that that is a most egregious sin, and perversion of the instituted purpose of life. According to the catholic church and many others, humans being children of God (literal or figurative, depending on your dogma), have an obligation to bring more children into the world and raise them as good people in upright homes. To use sex for personal indulgence is to reject that obligation, hijack the process for your own interest, and seek to prevent the work of God, of making the world a better place for more people. That self-centered attitude is to many believers of many faiths is tanamount to spiritual treason in commiting sedition against God who has given you your life. To attempt to mandate behaviors and practices designed to thwart God's will is to declare open war on heaven.

Now if God don't exist or don't care, that's a different story. Where the extremeists jump ship is in "mercy interventions" where they rush to judgement in an attempt to either 'prevent' worse calamities than what they already fear, or to go out as a martyr, regardless of those around them. So A) they're ignoring theur own texts regarding their place and duties, or B) they're thinking only of themselves like their supposed enemies.

The real trick though, is in figuring out how to deal with foes who fear retribution for inaction more than potential casualties from action, on both sides.

[igor drukov 0]

What I will try to give here in this post are a few hints about the bases of Roman Catholic theology today and a few useful philosophical and historical reminders. I will stick to the fundamentals, bearing in mind that these fundamentals are also acknowledged by non-Catholic Christians, at least here in France, where I live. The core issues (trans-/cons-substantiation, individual/codified reading of the Bible, sufficient/efficient grace) will be set aside, as they are really too O.T.

I will start with a quote by Hölderlin, who, though he was a poet and not a theologian, caught the essence of today's Christian theology :

Quote[/b] ]God created man as the sea created the continents, by leaving.

Then, in the original text of the Genesis, man (adam) has been created to look after the earth (adamah). adam is the masculine version of adamah. What does this mean, what does this imply ? Nothing more than man comes from the earth, and nothing less than literal interpretations of the Bible are preposterous : translating is betraying, and I am not even mentioning the obstacles of a 4000-year-old language.

At this point, I should add that literal Protestants seem to me to be one specificity of American Christianity. I am not judging,  I am not explaining anything either, I am only stating. In France, there are virtually none, and I am very tempted to say that there aren't too many in Europe.

I really do not want to linger on the necessity not to read the Bible literally. Hannah Arendt for instance in the Human condition has shown well the absurdity of reading Matthew 5:39 literally :

Quote[/b] ]If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

This is mere Scheinheiligkeit, tartufferie, as it goes against the very Christian idea of goodness. The moment you think your actions are good, and potentially become proud of it, these actions become less good. Cf. Matthew 6:3 :

Quote[/b] ]But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth.

Anyway, two things are also deemed highly important. First, the fact that

Quote[/b] ]God created man in his own image, in his own image created he him ; male and female created he him.

(This is quoted from the King James Bible, Genesis, 1:27, which is the only English Bible I have at home. Admittedly, it might not be the most "faithful". But what a beautiful piece of literature...)

To serve my point that literal readings are ludicrous, to say the least, I will simply enjoin you to read Genesis, 2:21 and following (where the woman is created out of one of Adam's ribs). Yes, this is contradictory.

The second idea is that of the original sin. The Genesis, and many other parts of the Bible are to be read metaphorically. How else to explain that Jesus, God's son, used parabols to make intricate, subtle truths, clear to us ? These two ideas, man as God's image and the original sin are key-ideas first because they fully answer any ontological questions one might ask oneself (see below for more), then because they contain the implication that man is free. Paradoxically, to have sinned, to be sinful, is the prerequisite for man to be able to deliberate, judge and choose his fate (cf. Aristotle's bouleutikon and proairesis as defining ontological attributes of man).

Another crucial point is the relationship to sciences. Here I will freely quote one of the most influential theologians today, Christof Theobald :

Quote[/b] ]God will not reveal to us what we can find out by ourselves.

As this is pretty self-explanatory, I will go on, and deal with the accusations made against the Christians in general, and the Catholics in particular.

Christians and Catholics have made mistakes throughout history, this is undeniable, but they are also the only ones to truly repent for this, and ask for forgiveness. At any rate, whether this was because of their religion only is way less defendable. Take the Crusades : it has been argued that they were organized out of spite and envy towards the wealth of the East, and to give something to do to the numerous soldiers and mercenaries that roamed the roads of Europe after the end of the feudal wars between the lords for kingdom.

As to the Spanish Inquisition, it remained local to specific geographical and historical coordinates, and can not be at any rate extended to the Church in general : that would be taking the exception for the rule. Yes, this was a pretty fucked-up thing, partly explainable by the Muslim invasion of Spain, and of course more political than religious. Anyway, as many other things, that would not be possible today, as anyone who knows about the Council of Vatican II will admit.

Galileo ? Historical reality is often more complicated than what the lay man would like it to be. Everything would be so much simpler if everything were black or white ! I am afraid it all comes in shades of grey. I will just mention Bellarmin's warnings to Galileo to add hedges to his book, and make his thesis appear more like an assumption than an assertion. Anyway, Galileo won, and there is not a single Catholic today that doubts that the earth revolves around the sun (or is it the other way round ?   )

Hitler, the Jews : what is the story again about Hitler being a Roman Catholic ? The link you gave, Baron, does not work. For today, read this. Back then, there was Mit Brennender Sorge, too. The behaviour of the Catholic Church in WWII is explainable by the fact that the Pope was shit-scared that German Catholics might also be persecuted. At the beginning of 1944, there were 750 000 Jews in Hungary. They had not been touched yet. The Church did everything it could to save some when Hitler decided to seal their fate. 5000 of them could be exfiltrated by the Catholics' networks, even though many historian Jews acknowledge the fact that nothing more could really be done. 5000.

Something else : antijudaism must not be confused with antisemitism. Antijudaism is the hatred of Jews as belonging to a deicide people. In the course of the 19th century, antisemitism appeared, stemming partly from Christian antijudaism, but mainly from positivist and evolutionist ideas of a hierarchy of races, along with certain socio-economic features (like the Jews were richer, took the jobs from the "pure", etc.). The Jews were no longer seen as members of a religion (who could be "cured" by conversion), but as a "race", and inferior with that.

Condoms : the Catholic Church's message aims at being both universal and intemporal. To make an exception for Africa would cause the Church to CTD. Why anyway should the Catholic Africans not (try to !) refrain from having sex any more than their counterparts from other parts of the world ?

This is where I have to mention one of Baron's key-argument, that :

It is not an exaggeration to say that religion is the most inflammatory enemy-labelling device in history.

To me, there is some truth in this, but I also agree with Major Fubar :

I firmly that believe that in a theortical world where the concept of religion was never invented, most people who are religious zealots or commit violence in the name of religion in our world would still be the same in this theortical world, just their energy and beliefs would be diverted to something else (i.e. state, country, personal power etc.).

Abolishing religions would not solve the problem, symbollically formulated by the metaphor of the original sin, of man's trend to make evil. Historically, by the way, systematically opposing faith to reason is evidence of ignorance. Reconciling both was the obsession of men such as Averroes for Islam, or scholastics 150 years later for Christianity (Saint Thomas of Aquinus, Pierre Abélard, way later Thomas More, later again, the scientist Blaise Pascal, and so on...). Please do not come up to me by saying that the use of "reason" can keep us away from that : first, because nobody is always rational, then because man is more (or less, it is all up to you) than reason only, then because it is too often deemed rational to cultivate strength to crush one's enemy, last because two or more solutions to a given problem can be rational.

Scientists and self-appointed free-thinkers today always carefully overlook ontological and eschatological issues, that is to say they fail, most of the time willingly, to ask themselves the following simple questions (the formulating of which, and attempts at answering of which, were the starting point of philosophy and sciences in the Western tradition) : where do I come from ? Where do I go ? What am I ? Who am I ?

As to fanatics of all kinds, be they Catholics, Jews, Protestants, Hindus, Muslims, atheists, well, we can spot them

from far away. They want to change you. They often want to kill you. Unfortunately, there is no debate with them, for they do not negotiate. How to treat them, I leave the question open to you .

My main point here is to show things are way more complicated than what demagogues or ignorants would like them to be. Only open-mindedness and moderation can claim to take us all closer to the truth. What good is there to pray ? What good is there to bring solace to a poor child in India ? This is not quantifiable. One might want to burn down all religious buildings, one might want to make useful things only. Define useful. Anyway, I think it is a lesser evil to pray.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

-Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

SOURCE?! I havn't seen anywhere that he said that. I do smell bullshit.

[edit] Ahh sorry, it's actually true he said that...just checked some other sources. Sick and twisted, this guy.

Wow!  I had never heard that.  That is pretty sick.  One of the problems with the Shi'ite is that they treat their Ayatollahs like a Pope or something and are supposed to abide by what their Ayatollah decrees.   So I'm sure alot of Iranians are happily humping sheep.  

Wait... I was born in Iran.... Hmmm....   "Baaaaaaaaaah!".    

Lambchops anyone?

LOL!

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Lol, but in the name of religion they safe pigs from being killed. 1:1

But you know, lets be tolerant. Some poor farmers up in the mountains. No wife, no time to go down to the village to look for one since an animal farm is a full time job. They gotta release reproduction-pressure somewhere!    Poor goats though. I mean some people reject eggs because it is delivered through a very ugly body part. But imagining the steak on my plate stems from a cow that was raped by a farmer. Hell I think I turn vegetarian.

[Apollo 0]

Typicly of middle east religion's to include the omnipotentent camel ,probably sexually greatly prefered over other animals as it also feature's two "tits".

And to the reality in practice of this particular religious law ,let us just observe that Iran has quite a good amount of shepards.i wonder how the goverment control's if the meat is correctly slauthered and sold after being humped ,afterall would Khomenei really have liked "domestic meat"?

To think that an irani man can bump about anything anytime withought being against the holy law while a woman could be executed (probably by public stoning ,ack) for the smallest sign of adultury.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

To think that an irani man can bump about anything anytime withought being against the holy law while a woman could be executed (probably by public stoning ,ack) for the smallest sign of adultury.

what is wrong with that?

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

To think that an irani man can bump about anything anytime withought being against the holy law while a woman could be executed (probably by public stoning ,ack) for the smallest sign of adultury.

what is wrong with that?

Newsflash: 2 posts in one night confirm that Albert is a submissive sexist

[Major Fubar 0]

As an aside, I think there are probably just as many people who obey basic moral rules (i.e. thou shalt not steal etc.) due to a fear of punishment in an afterlife who would be less moral without religion.

Such as who?

Sounds like nonsense to me.

You seriously don't think there are people out there who's moral system is primarily based on their religious beliefs ? ? ?

Or do you think all of these people would be moral anyway?