The things they do in the name of religion

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You are trying to make a battle out of this discussion and polarise the members into two groups that fight each other. Wont work buddy!

No, I was just being sarcastic.

I was also trying to make a small point: some of the things that some people say ARE shite, and I don't see why others get annoyed when it's called.

[brgnorway 0]

When thinking about the technological revolution we have experienced since the industrial revolution, the industrial period - and during and after the post-industrial period when we alledgely have sufficient methology to answer our questions : WHY then do many of us still choose religion to answer our prayers?

This is still going on despite our wealth, our knowledge provided by science, our superior education and our general progressive pragmatism!

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]WHY then do many of us still choose religion to answer our prayers?

Maybe because parents grind religion into their childrens' brains while they're still malleable?

[Acecombat 0]

This thread is wonderful we started from a poor lady journalist having her Email account wiped out to a God exists or not and religious people are bat shit insane

Ok i'd like to add a few comments here , and some questions.

First Baron do you really think that religion from Adam to Muhammed was a whole big conspiracy theory against mankind ? I mean how did they all plan this up any ideas?

The way its all organized it seems that all divine religions must have been foreplanned or not? Maybe someone is using time travel and messing this up for us eh?

Finally what have you got to say for those SECULAR scientists who i might remind you are much more educated and secular then you might even possibly be , certify the some facts presented to them from the Quran (or perhaps even bible cant ay for sure) as VALID and very true. They themselves also claim that those facts couldnt have come from a human being at that time or age but from someone else ::hint:: divine intervention. What have you got to say for that ? Or do you simply outright deny it ? If your wondering which those facts i could post them if i had the time to find the links again but some of them have already been posted in other discussions here in the forum.

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]Such as?

I really can't be bothered to look back the whole thread but this post was quite recent:

Albert said:

Quote[/b] ] have the impressions some of you people here have stopped dreaming, phantasizing for the sake of always being rational and objective. You kill your own boring life with that and one day you kill the creative heads of your children that seek for a little magic tale or lie. Or at least with the doubt that there may be a god who listenes to them in case they are realy feeling bad!

You said:

Quote[/b] ]Nice. Insult everyone who doesn't agree with you.

How could you view that as an insult? And even if it were an insult, it really doesn't look like he was insulting everyone who disagrees with him.

Quote[/b] ]How amazing. The religious don't believe they are wrong.

What's so amazing about that? Me for example; you can never drive me away into thinking something else. Try what you may.

Quote[/b] ]Is this IRL? No, this is a topic on a forum, which is about religion. Why do you want to censor posts about it?

What the bloody hell are you talking about? I was implying that you guys started it all, yet you are complaining that 'religious people are intolerant and try to force their beliefs on others' and 'religion gets in the way of scientific discussions'. Where did I say I want to censor the posts?

Quote[/b] ]I never said you could.

I never said that you said that you could.

But your intentions were to put it on people.

Quote[/b] ]You can, however, improve the standard of education so that people figure out for themselves how much pap religion is.

Oh? And what about scientists that believe in God?

[brgnorway 0]

any religious aspect is pseudo scientific. What else could there be when trying to use science to explain religion. Absolute rubbish I agree. But that is the constant mistake of atheists/religious scientists trying to find a trace with their own university tools.

Eh?

You can use science to figure out the roots of religion and what effects/ reasons for its existance there are

(it was useful early on in humanity's history, but is not now.)

No you can't! Simplest reason is because you put reason after effect. It's not a satisfactory explanation. This troubled early anthropology (which is my field) . Genetics are not a good basis for explanation. Accordingly there are too many inconsistensies in "survival of the fittest-theories" .

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]WHY then do many of us still choose religion to answer our prayers?

Maybe because parents grind religion into their childrens' brains while they're still malleable?

Yes, that is a qualified alternative. However, that implies social organisation in one way or another - and that's anthropology not (natural) science  

I'll post more after I have walked my dog  

[Scorpio 0]

OMG STOP USING NAUGHTY WORDS AND SLAGGING OFF RELIGIOUS PEOPLE THEY ARE NOT STUPID

[/sarcasm]

Great...if you want to make this a slagging match then be my guest mate.

"Isn't God so lovely..."

"No. There is no God. Anybody with a brain can recognize that. You're stupid to believe that. Go back to school."

"But don't you think-"

"No. Don't argue."

"[insert argument for]"

"Eh? What are you talking about? Anyway...you're stupid. Religion is crap".

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Baron, this is your last warning.

If you can not debate properly (Denoir showed you very nicely how to do it properly), you will not debate at all.

If I catch you one more time with your rude, arrogant, patronising and demeaning posts, I will give you a week-long holiday from the forums.

Stop trolling.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Ok i'd like to add a few comments here , and some questions.

First Baron do you really think that religion from Adam to Muhammed was a whole big conspiracy theory against mankind ?

Dear ace combat, please could you trouble yourself to possibly read the thread. You might notice that I said no such thing.

It's not a conspiracy by any means. Its simply that people realised that they could use religion (and their own interpretations of it, such as pretending to be the reincarnation of a god) to gain power and influence. Then it snowballs from there.

Quote[/b] ]

Finally what have you got to say for those SECULAR scientists who i might remind you are much more educated and secular then you might even possibly be , certify the some facts presented to them from the Quran (or perhaps even bible cant ay for sure) as VALID and very true. They themselves also claim that those facts couldnt have come from a human being at that time or age but from someone else ::hint:: divine intervention. What have you got to say for that ? Or do you simply outright deny it ? If your wondering which those facts i could post them if i had the time to find the links again but some of them have already been posted in other discussions here in the forum.

I'd say please post these supposed facts. Because I do not believe you. Because every time you've tried this before (and others using the Quran) its been some very subjective and loose interpretation.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

How could you view that as an insult? And even if it were an insult, it really doesn't look like he was insulting everyone who disagrees with him.

He equated a lack of religious belief with KILLING CHILDREN!

You don't see how that is insulting??

Quote[/b] ]

What's so amazing about that? Me for example; you can never drive me away into thinking something else. Try what you may.

It's not. That was an ironic statement. I was remarking that it was not amazing at all.

Quote[/b] ]

I never said that you said that you could.

But your intentions were to put it on people.

You do not know anything about my intentions.

Quote[/b] ]

Oh? And what about scientists that believe in God?

Quite rare. Already discussed in the thread many times. Please read it, thank you.

[Acecombat 0]

Hm you can check the mideast thread for them i believe i had them there , and they arent weak interpretations trust me i understand the language in which it was written

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]He equated a lack of religious belief with KILLING CHILDREN!

You don't see how that is insulting??

Read this sentence again, please:-

Quote[/b] ]You kill your own boring life with that and one day you kill the creative heads of your children that seek for a little magic tale or lie.

If you still don't get it...he didn't mean it literally. He was saying that he had the impression people would have the submittance to rationality and science so much that their lives would be killed by it and the creative minds of their children would be killed due to the parental influence. He wasn't equating killing children to lack of religious beliefs at all.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]He equated a lack of religious belief with KILLING CHILDREN!

You don't see how that is insulting??

Read this sentence again, please:-

Quote[/b] ]You kill your own boring life with that and one day you kill the creative heads of your children that seek for a little magic tale or lie.

If you still don't get it...he didn't mean it literally. He was saying that he had the impression people would have the submittance to rationality and science so much that their lives would be killed by it and the creative minds of their children would be killed due to the parental influence. He wasn't equating killing children to lack of religious beliefs at all.

...And you don't think that is insulting??

:o

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I realy have to laugh.... This tread is a mixture of "analyse INSULT" and "put that in scientific terms" and "dont try to convince me".

Very entertaining!     (and I mean everyone, including me)

What I meant was that always being objectively doesnt make your life better, especially not for children which keep their curiosity alive by beliving in magic, tales and irrational ideas. The same is true for you and me. Of course during our work and daily life we have to be objective and down to earth, but there are moments where your objectivity makes you despair. E.g. your wife suddenly gets cancer, the condition of your grandma is deteriortating. Some people, who are usually very strong might suddenly collapse because there is no way out. Sometimes the only resort is the church. I worked in a hospital (obligatory work experience) and I was lucky such thing as religion exists because the old people could fight their fear of death through it! We could argue that religion and praying rarely provided a solution. But it seems to have some effect on the people because a priest can comfort a dying client better than a doctor or relatives. Whether you believe it or not doesnt play a role. It works and people feel well accomodated when they prey.

[brgnorway 0]

I realy have to laugh.... This tread is a mixture of "analyse INSULT" and "put that in scientific terms" and "dont try to convince me".

Very entertaining!    

Yes I have to agree with you - unfortunately!

No wonder there's war in this world when certain people are able to mobilise such a fundamental lack of empathy for other people.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

What I meant was that always being objectively doesnt make your life better, especially not for children which keep their curiosity alive by beliving in magic, tales and irrational ideas. The same is true for you and me. Of course during our work and daily life we have to be objective and down to earth, but there are moments where your objectivity makes you despair. E.g. your wife suddenly gets cancer, the condition of your grandma is deteriortating. Some people, who are usually very strong might suddenly collapse because there is no way out. Sometimes the only resort is the church. I worked in a hospital (obligatory work experience) and I was lucky such thing as religion exists because the old people could fight their fear of death through it! We could argue that religion and praying rarely provided a solution. But it seems to have some effect on the people because a priest can comfort a dying client better than a doctor or relatives. Whether you believe it or not doesnt play a role. It works and people feel well accomodated when they prey.

I disagree. Being rational always makes your life better.

Being delusional never makes your life better.

Whether you believe that or not doesn't change that fact.

[brgnorway 0]

One can only be intentionaly rational . The economic man perspective is flawed. You would be surprised to discover that desicionmaking is a process more marked by irrationality rather than rationality.

[Scorpio 0]

ROFL!

I disagree. Oranges are blue. Oranges are not orange.

Wether you believe that or not, it doesn't change the fact that oranges are blue.

[shinRaiden 0]

Ok, it appears that there was some misunderstanding about my earlier example.

When I mentioned that I 'know' 10 * 10 = 100, I'm referring to the equation a * b = c. This is process #1.

Quote[/b] ]*edit* sec... *edit*

Having counted from 1 to 100, I 'know' that there are 10 groups of 10 in 100. Based on this experience, I 'believe' that the formula is correct, and that (17 * 100) will equal 1700, even though I have not confirmed that that is the case via another process. The strength of this belief is such that I have the faith to trust my life to the engineering calculations that go into construction of airplanes and the like, even though I have not run the same calculations myself.

@Denoir:

A wonderful followon post, I really appreciate your clarity.

A couple points though from my perspective, may not be shared by all.

Quote[/b] ]We get all our information from the world from our senses

With religion, it is commonly believed that there are more senses than are currently scientifically evaluatable.

Quote[/b] ]The bible says that the earth is 6,000 years old

My understanding is that the material recorded post-eden starts from ~6000 years before now. The creation I believe was 7 phases / epochs of unknown duration.

Quote[/b] ]Saying that the religious text isn't supposed to be read literally and that it's impossible to exactly say what the text meant

The biggest block on this is the difficulties of translation and interprtation. I believe that you can only understand a passage if you have a measure of the same spirit in which it was given. Basiclly, if you believe God said it, but you don't understand it, ask Him and He'll explain it. That's only for personal application though...

Quote[/b] ]the following of authority, without critical evaluation

Here, I view two types of 'authority': 1) is authorization to act for and on behalf of a religious organization in the authorized capacity, and 2) the self-manifest 'omnipotent' 'authority' assigned to God.

Quote[/b] ]It requires 100% blind faith in the issuing authority

Again, I have a unique opinion of faith, that faith is not the blind belief in unsubstaniated theories, but rather the willingness to accept, believe, and act on what I have experienced. Now those experiences are not externally confirmable via known scientific methods, but that does not make those experiences any less real to me.

@barron:

I'd also echo speedydonkey, and thank nearly everyone for discussing this in a civil fashion. While I may view my own personal deep inner beliefs as radical fundamentalist from the macroview, those are my beliefs - independent from yours Baron. I choose my beliefs, and attacks on that are deliberate insults to my life's experiences, of which you are totally ignorant. While I believe your time would so much more effectively be spent 'helping' me with my alleged incapacities, the inhumanity of your demagogery is discouraging at best. The choice though ultimately is yours.

The solution to the ambivelence I sense regarding the plethora of diverse religious organizations is that as there is clear history of progression, why shouldn't there be a pattern of degeneration? Gibbon's treatise is called "The decline and fall of the roman empire" after all. Bin Laden argues that modern Islam should go back to the days of the caliphate, and others argue that going back earlier would potentially disavow any later contrived justification for slaughter of innocents. Christ wasn't knocking Moses, he said those who sat in the seat of Moses were AWOL.

[shinRaiden 0]

I am so not a math major. I had a secondary process of confirmation that was bogus. I ended up getting 1000000010, because my process of evaluation was flawed.

That don't mean that 10 * 10 does not = 100, nor is math bad either. It means I got to confirm my stuff better.

Same with religion. Most of the alleged inconsitencies are actually misunderstandings based on false assumptions inserted after the fact, like the whole gnostic tradtion of patching things together, which by the way is mirrored in east asian religion's adoption / insertion of christianity.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]We get all our information from the world from our senses

With religion, it is commonly believed that there are more senses than are currently scientifically evaluatable.

..But until that has any evidence at all, believing that is not reasonable/ not a sensible thign to do.

Quote[/b] ]

My understanding is that the material recorded post-eden starts from ~6000 years before now. The creation I believe was 7 phases / epochs of unknown duration.

Which, as I already said, are in the wrong order anyway. The light did not come before the stars, for example, and the order for animals and plants are wrong also. You may find it discomforting but the simple fact remains that it did not happen as related in that book.

Quote[/b] ]

The biggest block on this is the difficulties of translation and interprtation. I believe that you can only understand a passage if you have a measure of the same spirit in which it was given. Basiclly, if you believe God said it, but you don't understand it, ask Him and He'll explain it. That's only for personal application though...

....Well, you've convinced me

Might I possibly ask how someone might tell the difference between your method and.. say... a delusional person talking to themselves?

Quote[/b] ]

Again, I have a unique opinion of faith, that faith is not the blind belief in unsubstaniated theories, but rather the willingness to accept, believe, and act on what I have experienced.

... Also known as blind belief in your own unsubstantiated theories.

Quote[/b] ]

Now those experiences are not externally confirmable via known scientific methods, but that does not make those experiences any less real to me.

Well, if you were intellectually honest, they should. They certainly do not appear real to anyone else. If you are having hallucinations, then maybe you might want to see a doctor.

Quote[/b] ]

@barron:

I'd also echo speedydonkey, and thank nearly everyone for discussing this in a civil fashion. While I may view my own personal deep inner beliefs as radical fundamentalist from the macroview, those are my beliefs - independent from yours Baron. I choose my beliefs, and attacks on that are deliberate insults to my life's experiences, of which you are totally ignorant.

I am sorry if the truth hurts. However, like the man who is convinced he is Napoleon Bonaparte, the sooner you see your own problems the quicker you will get better. I do not mean to make you feel bad, simply for you to think in a manner consistent with reality.

Quote[/b] ]

While I believe your time would so much more effectively be spent 'helping' me with my alleged incapacities, the inhumanity of your demagogery is discouraging at best. The choice though ultimately is yours.

I am trying to help you. You are not cooperating.

[Veovis 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am trying to help you.  You are not cooperating.

You are trying to help him, eh? Telling people they are delusional, have false beliefs, and have lost all touch with reality is usually not the best way to go about that. Your sarcastic tone makes an intelligent discussion almost impossible, but telling somebody they are a dumb fool because of something that makes them happy, that you can obviously not comprehend, is crossing the line. What would make you so hateful as to do that?

Quote[/b] ]..But until that has any evidence at all, believing that is not reasonable/ not a sensible thign to do.

whisperFF06, myself, and a few others here have tried to explain this to you. Religion is not there to prove anything. Saying it isn't sensible to fill a mental/spiritual hole in somebody's life is ridiculous. Spirituality cannot possibly be explained scientifically, so according to you that is irrational? If you find evidence necessary to explain religion, you won't ever get it, because that's not what it is about. If you are happy without it, good for you. That doesn't mean a religious person is an ignorant moron. There are things that are intangible, and not provable. If you want to argue proof and fact, find somebody who believes the bible is just that. It's a waste of everybody's time to put facts up against things intangible (souls, God, heaven, etc.) There are many of us who accept both science and religion.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

veovis. welcome to our board. You will see not every thread is as explosive as this one. But according to your style of argumentation I am sure you gonna enjoy it. But I guess you have already seen most threads yourself and you are very well able to judge yourself. I am just happy we also get new members, most of us are dusty heads here and we are just repeating what we already said here months and years ago. Or as Karl Valentin put it: "everything has already been said, just not by everyone"

[brgnorway 0]

veovis. welcome to our board. You will see not every thread is as explosive as this one. But according to your style of argumentation I am sure you gonna enjoy it. But I guess you have already seen most threads yourself and you are very well able to judge yourself. I am just happy we also get new members, most of us are dusty heads here and we are just repeating what we already said here months and years ago. Or as Karl Valentin put it: "everything has already been said, just not by everyone"

Damnit Albert! - That's good manners. You are undoubtedly the most well mannered and polite of us all!