The things they do in the name of religion

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Well wait up a second. i think we should clear things up a little bit.

A: you are claiming that hitler was a religious man and that his religion drove him to the Holocaust and WWII.

-> You must prove it!

B: You came forward with a quote of "Mein Kampf" and I showed you a link to the most renowned historical scientist in germany who claims that it cannot be proven.

-> So you are saying, this scientist must be wrong

C: Considering this scientist is wrong then you must prove it

-> Hitler was a manipulator. He never spoke in public about what he realy thought. And there are some unofficial insider quotes that would surprise you about him. So considering he never realy spoke his mind, how do you want to proof anything about his "belief"? How is this possible.

D: Hitler followed his "beliefs"! How can I possibly denie this. The word belief is so abstract that it could embrace everything attitude, perception, emotion, experience...basically everything. But this thread isnt about "belief" it is about religion. Now saying that any "belief" is a religion is like saying Humans are animals. Yes and no! Too flexible to use it as a thesis! And you started this thread so you must come forward with a clear statement.

[Pathy 0]

I was the one that brung up beliefs. I said, i did not believe that Hilter was driven by religion, more his belief in the Superior race, ect.....

Baron then falls into the trap of thinking belief is religion

I point it out

He claims that i am the one confusing different types of belief.

I never said "Religious Beliefs", and i defined the type of belief i was talking about........

Sorry mate, your the confused one.....

As Albert says, i have yet to see any solid evidence Hitler was driven by religion. As far as i see, religion was another propaganda tool in the inventory of Hitler, to be controlled cleverly to promote himself and his beliefs. Not his religious beliefs, mind.......

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Then if someone totally irreligious stands up on a soap box and preaches and advocates harm against another person in front of another crowd, you believe that this should be tollerated and permitted?

Aside from the fact that irreligious people don't stand on soap boxes and urge violence in the name of being irreligious anyway; no.

There is a difference between every individuals right to choose their own religious beliefs or lack of (which I wholeheartedly agree with)* and the right to incite violence.

*I agree with their rights to do so; I don't think that they are correct to do so, more moral to do so, or in any way justified doing so: but that is their right.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Lol, well how can i be wrong? I was the one who brought belief up, you just twisted its meaning to be religious belief. I never said religious belief, its not my fault if YOU decide to deliberately not read a post. Lets go through it again

You are the one who confused religious belief (hitler's religious beliefs) with the everyday usage of belief; which is not the same thing. That is how you are wrong. Please read the post. I know you didn't think they are different: but they are. Please read the post.

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I specified BELIEFS. Not RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Just BELIEF. It is YOU who is confusing the meanings of beliefs. So how you can come back at me and say i am the one mixing the meanings of belief up, i do not know......

You ARE CONFUSED WITH THE DEFINITIONS. You are saying Hitlers religious beliefs were not religious beliefs: thats YOUR fault, not mine. Once again;

Religious beliefs: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. Hitler's beliefs were faith-based, religious beliefs. Accept that.

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Oh and btw, you didnt mention "faith" anywhere in your post.

Wrong again.

Really?

(Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX @ May 02 2004,14:24)

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FAITH/ BELIEF in his ideology. Non-religious people do not have absolute faith/ belief.

Once again I am forced to say to you: please read the thread before posting nonsense.

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As i pointed out earlier, religion and belief are not the same thing.

As you claimed earlier, wrongly. Faith based beliefs, with no logical proof or material evidence, are religious in nature. I don't know why you cannot seem to understand that.

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Quote[/b] ]So: wrong. Sorry.

Quote[/b] ]There wasn't any 'science' per se. You may want to do some studying on the subject if you think science has been around for more than a couple of hundred years.

I do study the subject, thats how i know that some form of science has been around alot longer than 200 years.

Not very well, apparently. Science, as a discipline, requires the invention of the scientific method. There were, of course, rational, sensible people who tried to work things out before the invention of it; but they are not scientists in the modern sense of the word. Which is why I wrote 'per se' (would you like me to underline where I said that in case you try to claim I didn't say that as well?)

Also note I didn't say 'exactly 200 years.' The point, which you are trying to ignore with pedantic nitpicking, is that your claims of 'the scientific fact of the earth being flat was wrong' are ridiculous and erroneus.

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Ok, youve just told me im wrong, and then using different words just told me exactly what i just said.

What is believed to be correct theory at one point in time will be superceded, i gave an example that commonly acknowledged theories in the 50's and 60's are now discarded for better ones...

'Accepted Theory' and 'Scientific Fact' are two completely different things......

And the FACT that the eath is an oblate geoid will never, ever be superceeded. It is a solid, hard, fact. The hypothesis (and a tenous hypothesis at that) that the earth was flat was NOT a scientific fact. That is the point you are struggling to bicker about.

Please read the article I quoted. You might learn something, specifically about the Popper - styled heckle.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

There are plenty of White-supremacists and other racists out there that also happen to be atheists and agnostics...

There are also plenty of Christians who aren't remotely racist...

I don't think that logic dictates that Hitler was a racist/supremacist because of his religious beliefs.

These racists don't have any irrational beliefs not based on evidence, do they? I'd very much like to hear the evidence that they are basing these non-beliefs on.......

The point was that religious, irrational belief can lead to people like Hitler, not that every single person with any irrational belief will act like hitler. That was fairly clear in other posts, IMO.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Well wait up a second. i think we should clear things up a little bit.

A: you are claiming that hitler was a religious man and that his religion drove him to the Holocaust and WWII.

-> You must prove it!

Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic and was never excommunicated.

Definition of Religion:

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Hitler fits both of these definitions for having religion.

Hitlers religion was of his OWN devising, not the thule orden stuff; although he did incorporate elements of that into it.

He may not have been a christian (which is debatable, and is what most historians debate about) - but he was, indisputably, religious.

Evidence for Hitler being religious:

Irrational views about the universe

repeated, constant references to biblical prophecy/ stories

Repeated, enforced claims to be doing 'gods work'

Absolutely insisting that all soldiers in the German Army pledge to God (Himmler did a similar thing with the SS)

The phrase 'Gott mit uns' on Nazi regalia/ items

Irrational hatred of other religions / irrational action towards those of a specific religion.

FAITH/ BELIEF in his ideology. Non-religious people do not have absolute faith/ belief.

I think you are minsunderstanding the historians. Once again; you are confusing Hitler not being christian with Hitler not being religious. There is a difference.

The Church had severe problems with the Nazi party before it came to power (as it was gaining support) - they attempted to put people off it by claiming it was 'anti-religious' - by which they meant anti-what they said.

""I often feel that we will have to undergo all the trials the devil and hell can devise before we achieve Final Victory....I may be no pious churchgoer, but deep within me I am nevertheless a devout man. That is to say, I believe that he who fights valiantly obeying the laws which a god has established and who never capitulates but instead gathers his forces time after time and always pushes forward—such a man will not be abandoned by the Lawgiver. Rather he will ultimately receive the blessing of Providence. And that blessing has been imparted to all great spirits in history."" -Hitler

Perhaps you missed this the first time.

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B: You came forward with a quote of "Mein Kampf" and I showed you a link to the most renowned historical scientist in germany who claims that it cannot be proven.

-> So you are saying, this scientist must be wrong

I am saying, Hitler was unquestionably religious. I am also not convinced (since you have brought no evidence on the matter) that this historian (historical scientist... no) was saying that Hitler was not CHRISTIAN which, for the 500th time, is what most historians debate about.

Unless he has some new defintion of 'not religious' which includes faith in a god, religious belief, etc, it is simply wrong to say Hitler was not religious.

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C: Considering this scientist is wrong then you must prove it

-> Hitler was a manipulator. He never spoke in public about what he realy thought. And there are some unofficial insider quotes that would surprise you about him. So considering he never realy spoke his mind, how do you want to proof anything about his "belief"? How is this possible.

Considering he never spoke his mind? Are you psychic? How do you know he never spoke his mind? What point would there be for someone who didn't hold these beliefs of persuading people to do what he (didn't)believe? That makes utterly no sense. So you're saying that Hitler only pretended to believe the Jews needed exterminating? So, he really liked them and just pretended to believe..... That makes sense.

Of course Hitler persuaded people. He persuaded them to help him fulfil his beliefs. You are confusing the fact that Hitler pretended to hold CATHOLIC beliefs in the early stages of the rise of the NS party with the fact that he did hold other religious beliefs.

'Unofficial' - as in 'Stuff that could be made up.' - Now, some may well be true... but there is no way to tell what is true and what someone with their own agenda made up (EG German war criminal confessing to the Americans is not likely to claim Hitler was religious as the Americans would not like it in their fear at that time of Communism)

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D: Hitler followed his "beliefs"! How can I possibly denie this. The word belief is so abstract that it could embrace everything attitude, perception, emotion, experience...basically everything. But this thread isnt about "belief" it is about religion. Now saying that any "belief" is a religion is like saying Humans are animals. Yes and no!

Humans ARE animals.

RELIGIOUS BELIEF is RELIGIOUS. Other types of belief, for example pathy's belief that OFP is a good game, are not religious. The way to tell them apart is that one is based on faith, not evidence, and is not easily discarded as it has a high emotional appeal to the believer. EG a non-religious belief, that, say, Coca Cola is the best soft drink, might be displaced, with no fuss, if the person tasted Irn Bru and liked it better. Now, if this was a religious belief, the person tasting the other drink would be unable to accept that it tasted better, despite the evidence.

I'll give you another definition of belief (I've already given it, but you seem to not have read the thread very well) - I do not have any beliefs. None. Any time that belief in the common usage is used, I can use another word; such as 'think.' I Think that team X is the best. I am of the opinion that food Y is the best.

That doesn't work for religious beliefs. 'I believe Jesus is the one true god' will not go to 'I think Jesus is the one true god', because religious beliefs are based on FAITH, not evidence.

[Pathy 0]

Baron you are the biggest hypocrite i have ever come across.

Quote[/b] ]You are the one who confused religious belief (hitler's religious beliefs) with the everyday usage of belief; which is not the same thing.  That is how you are wrong.  Please read the post.  I know you didn't think they are different: but they are.  Please read the post.

I suggest YOU read my post:

Quote[/b] ]Hilter may have been religious, but i have severe doubt that it was his motivation. The pope is religious but im sure it doesnt motivate him to take a piss every morning. Instead, Hitler was driven more by a combination of belief, greed and ambition.

Belief that the aryan race was supreme. He used religion to try to secure this belief. It was means to an end. Aquiring religous artifacts and promoting them as gods true people was merely a means to promote the Aryan race.

When i post "Hitler had a belief that Ayrans were superior", i KNOW what type of belief i mean. I am sorry if you lack the wit to realise what type of belief i mean but at least have the courtesy to admit your mistake.

"i know you dont think they are different"

Again, you try to reverse reality. Read back the post and you will find YOU thought they were the same and i gave TWO examples of how they werent.

Quote[/b] ]Belief is not the same as religion. I believe the world is round, but my belief is not taken from religion. You probably belief OFP is a good game, does that have anything to do with religion?.......don't think so mate....

As i said, i specified beliefs, you got confused here:

Quote[/b] ]'hitler was not motivated by his religion..... he was motivated by his beliefs'

You don't see anything wrong with that statement?

His beliefs were part of his religion.  His religion was what gave him those beliefs.  Beliefs are a part of religion- irreligious people do not have beliefs in that sense.

As we can see, you assumed that my reference (as quoted earlier in this post) to belief was interpreted by you as religious beliefs.

I can see already you have done the same mistake with Albert Schweizer's post........

And now you try to claim that i was the one who made the misinterpretation? Is this how you try to win arguments you are failing with? You pretend you posted the opposite numbers posts for them?

Your quote about faith comes from before this belief argument. Thats like using evidence of Hitlers concentration camps as a reason to invade Germany today......yes, ridiculous.......

You truly are a sad deseperate man......i pity you.

About Science.

Quote[/b] ]Science /'sie-ans/ Noun 1 the study, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of the nature and behaviour of phenonema in the physical and natural world.

2 a branch of systemised knowledge as an object of study

3 something, a skill or technique, that may be studied and learned systematically

4 knowledge or possession of knowledge

Comes from Scientia (knowledge) from Scire (to know)

If you think science is an invention, then it is YOU who do not know your science.

Science is the search for the truth. It has been going on since time began. It is the method by which mankind has advanced.

The thought was at the time that it WAS scientific fact that the Earth was flat. So strongly was this felt that, until pictures of the earth were taken from space, many still doubted it was round.....

And talking of dodging the point with nitpicking, you have been dodging the point, which was, by insisting that todays "scientific fact" is the be all and end all, you are as narrow minded as those people who insisted that the world was round all those years ago.

Please stop being condesending with your posts, it seems you think you are smarter than the lot of us. In that case, please go off to a forum purely for people to debate philosophy, science, politics, and insult people, maybe that would be at a level suitable for your higher mind.

Never mind the fact that 3 people now have pointed out the flaws in your post and you still insist you are right.....

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Hey, there's no need to get insulting just because you have lost the argument. I have demonstrated to you the two pertinent meanings of belief: religious belief (such as Hitler's) and everyday belief. All you are now doing is having a tantrum along the lines of 'ITS NOT RELIGIOUS BELIEF!!! BECAUSE I SAY SO!!!.' Sorry, but the facts point otherwise.

Totally missing the point on the scientific fact vs scientific theory thing. Read the post again.

Hint:

'The Earth is round' was NEVER a scientific fact.

[hellfish6 7]

Closing. Probably temporary. Chill out, peeps.