EECP - Enhanced ECP

[pogingwapo 0]

@Kurayami

I respect your decision.

@Jinef

I meant "troop transport" sorry.

[Jinef 2]

Well even then it depends what time of infantry they are, if they are Division C motorised infantry then they will ride around in 1930s rustbuckets, as the troop quality gets higher so does the quality of transport.

[Taconic 0]

Whole situation would be different if this would be the real Config Project. But now that this is A MOD of A MOD... ehh I don't really see a point there.

I have the ECP team's permission to do what I am doing. The "point" of my config is to build upon what the ECP team has already created, not to usurp their position within the community, which is pretty good since I'm a pretty mediocre scripter when compared to Zayfod and the other ECP guys. The ECP team seems to be more interested in altering the core functionality of OFP, which is a great goal and very important work for the game, but what about the actual content of the game?

Why let the great things that mod teams have created languish? Why let their work go unused? Why not add a nice coat of shiney paint to the exterior since ECP has certainly cleaned up the interior? That's where I decided to step in. I don't think that the core ECP team has any interest in doing what I'm doing, and since there is a demand for it, the task has to fall to somebody, and that somebody apparently is me.

As for it being "pointless," this isn't exactly of small hack to ECP that took me and hour to do and that I'm calling my own. I've added close to 6,000 lines to ECP's base config at this point and invested probably close to 200 hours into the config and assorted scripts. I'm one person, not a team, so there isn't any way that I could reasonably be expected to come up with something as extensive as ECP or FDF Mod on my own.

Quote[/b] ]We had a really nice co-operation with snYpir and the ECP project but too bad he doesn't develop ECP anymore.

I don't see why this is any reason not to cooperate with somebody else, even if their work is "pointless" and apparently insignifigant in your eyes, but to each his own. I see little point in discussing it further. Your position has been made clear and I respect it.

[kegetys 2]

Remember we are all trying to add to the ofp community.

Taking something thats already done is not adding anything to the community.

Quote[/b] ]FDF recoils gives better ambience and challenge, yet you don't want anyone using them?! Fucking ridiculous. Especially considering a recoil value is basically a few numbers ...

You said it. Its just a few numbers. There's no point on taking them straight from FDFmod to some other mod, you'll just end up with a "FDFmod clone".

The recoil values are very very simple and very easy to edit, if you want your mod to have good recoil values, its very easy for you to make your own, and its propably also easy to make something much better than what we have made to FDFmod. This is the kind of progress that brings OFP forwards, you should keep improving things instead of just stacking up the same things over and over again.

Quote[/b] ]Oh and all editors and mod makers start from somewhere, Mikkov when you started editing did you ever need help with aspects or want to start from somewhere? Saying fuck off to small time mission makers and modders basically halts the production of small time mods and thus a lot of good ideas are not conceived. Has the FDF mod ever used anything from OFPEC, I would bloody well think so and i'm very sure that OFPEC is not what it is now by having a condenscending attitude towards newer modders. Grow up for fuck's sake.

I started from nowhere, I have almost never needed any help from anywhere. You should still find an (old) tutorial from OFPEC written by me that tells you how to make your own recoil values for your mod.

Quote[/b] ] Remember that all mods (Apart from Chain of Command) are under no legal protection

Everything we have made to FDFmod are "protected" under the copyright law.

[Lupus-WD- 0]

Remember we are all trying to add to the ofp community.

Taking something thats already done is not adding anything to the community.

well, taking and reissueing something already made by someone else as is isnt adding , but compiling different things in a bigger mod with different goal and to meet requirement of a different or wider (or even smaller) audience is adding to the community.

Kurayami is making something that meets some ppl needs for their gaming experience and i think there's no problem with that.

I gave him my configs and tweakings because i see no point in doing things from scratch again (also called reinventing the wheel) when he could give more time in other parts of his mod.

Now he's also free to modify and improve what i have given to him, (in the meantime while he's concentrating on adding new parts the vehicle still has wheels and he might improve them later when time allows, if you know what i mean), and if some people are happy with the result he will have added to the community.

Now i respect everyone'sposition on the subject but i wanted to give my point of view hoping that it give some food for thought, not some oil on the fire.

[TermiPete 0]

I'd just like to pitch in my 2c and say that Kurayami's project is all class, and I never cease to be impressed by the professional and courteous manner in which he 'does business'

I always think it is a shame when addon/mod makers aren't prepared to extend the benefits of their work to others working on high-quality 'non-duplicate' projects. However, Kurayami is right to seek and respect their wishes.

I don't agree with Kegety's implication that the use of FDF-equivalent recoil values could in any shape or form make EECP into a "FDFmod clone". But he is right in saying that it is just a set of numbers . . . and it's his call!

Jinef . . . "common courtesy and respect ... then fuck them, rip it out guys". Don't let your frustration get the better of you eh?

[theavonlady 2]

Some of you should learn from real life before crtitcizing Kurayami:

Quote[/b] ]South African Man Kills Designer for Criticizing Home

Tue Jun 15, 7:20 AM ET

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - A South African man told a court how he hacked to death his interior designer because she criticized his decor, local newspapers reported on Tuesday.

Jose da Silva, 37, pleaded guilty to murdering 47-year-old Beatrice Harrowyn in 2001 after inviting her to his new house in a classy suburb north of Johannesburg.

"We went through the house and I told her what I wanted. She did not make any nice comments about my place so I went to my garage and fetched an axe," the Star newspaper reported him as saying.

"I killed her because she reminded me of an old school teacher whom I hated very much."

Da Silva told the Pretoria High Court that voices in his head had instructed him to become a serial killer, the Star said.

He said he wanted to be caught before killing any more people and could not understand why it took police six weeks to catch him after he left clues for them to follow "like Hansel and Gretel."

"It should have taken police two days. It was their job to arrest me. I pay taxes and their salary," the newspaper reported him as saying.

Da Silva is due to be sentenced on Tuesday, newspapers said.

[Jinef 2]

For are under the BIS license, unless you have done what the coc have done and purchased a copyright then fair enough.

I am not endorsing people ripping off other's work, it's distasteful and disrespectful. However the FDF mod's attitude is getting more and more arrogant and quite honestly is uneccessary, OFP is game we play to enjoy. My idea of fun is not coming here and arguing.

Now you guys might be happy in only having one total conversion mod, as you have got your Finnish mod and your happy. I would however like to see more, I would like to see French, British, German, Swedish, Japanese, Chinese, Russian complete conversion mods and that isn't going to happen if people are so protective of their stuff.

It's irritating me to see such childish arrogance.

[Parvus 0]

Hello

@ Mrs. Avon Lady: Jesus, what a mess ...

btw; what about concentrate *the whole good stuff* in one MOD-Folder?

means:

- Llaumax 2.0 with a special newdata, which includes all known improvments, like Silecian Cesna .... Inquisitor's night gooogles etc. etc. ...

=> looks like this; it works very fine.

=> if you need some *newdata* files, give me a message plz Mr. Kurayami

greetz

[Taconic 0]

Well, I suppose this provides yet another negative answer to me, so I'll kill any plans to utilize things from the KEG weaponspack. I don't really understand why people aren't coming out and saying "no" when somebody extends them the courtesy of asking if they can use their work rather than simply stealing it, but I digress.

Taking something thats already done is not adding anything to the community.

According to the readme, FDF Mod uses:

Marfy's ZSU-23-2 and MT-LB

BW Mod's Leopard

Sigma-6's T-72M1

DKMM's TOW

RHS' T-55

BAS' MD-500

And assorted other things

You also use a number of (nicely) retextured BIS models.

I'm not trying to knock FDF Mod or your work, Kegetys, because I'm a fan of both, and I know firsthand how hard it is to create good textures, but this stance seems to be contradictory to your actions. FDF Mod has utilized many thigs that other people made. Why? Because they did not need to be remade or because remaking them from scratch would take too long and ultimately serve no purpose.

I don't understand why I'm a "bad guy" for doing the same thing that the FDF team did, especially since I asked permission, just as the FDF team asked various other people.

Quote[/b] ]The recoil values are very very simple and very easy to edit, if you want your mod to have good recoil values, its very easy for you to make your own, and its propably also easy to make something much better than what we have made to FDFmod. This is the kind of progress that brings OFP forwards, you should keep improving things instead of just stacking up the same things over and over again.

You could also make a new T-55, but you chose not to because RHS' fit the bill perfectly.

I felt that the FDF Mod's recoil values were excellent and didn't need improving. One would think that would be regarded as a compliment rather than as something bad.

[Jinef 2]

Jinef . . . "common courtesy and respect ... then fuck them, rip it out guys". Don't let your frustration get the better of you eh?

My point is -

My point is that if you cannot rely on the largest and most successful mod in the community to show respect to smaller mod makers then they shouldn't expect common courtesy in return.

I'm adding something to my signature right now.

Edit -

Kurayami said it very well in a diplomatic tone, plus with evidence to back it up.

I like being blunt so:

FDFMod if you continue in this way when people hear 'FDF' instant word association will be -

Great units and ameplay

Noise pollution music

Arrogant

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

[Taconic 0]

Some of you should learn from real life before crtitcizing Kurayami:

Nobody needs to worry about being hacked to pieces by me.

I fully expected something like this to happen, which is why I've gone to great pains to avoid stepping on anybody's toes.

[theavonlady 2]

I'm adding something to my signature right now.

"Don't feed the Spartans"?

[Jinef 2]

No, 'Share and Enjoy'

It should be the OFP community's motto as we are one of the best communities in gaming (Not that I have seen any others).

[Smartti 1]

Oh boy.

This is exactly the reason why we don't talk about our "deals" in public. Many of our offers - in the beginning and even lately - have been rejected. Still we don't have to make huge "flamefest" (I know, a bit too strong word) at public forums. Sharing of resources between mods is positive thing generally. But I guess no-one can force anyone to share their stuff against their will.

Kurayami politely asked for permission (which seems to be less common habit nowadays) and got negative answer. He decided to respect authors' wish and managed to stay calm. Why can't other people do the same?

Btw. Discussions like this aren't making any positive changes to attitudes  

[Taconic 0]

means:

- Llaumax 2.0 with a special newdata, which includes all known improvments, like Silecian Cesna .... Inquisitor's night gooogles etc. etc. ...

=> looks like this; it works very fine.

=> if you need some *newdata* files, give me a message plz Mr. Kurayami

greetz

I actually have most of that stuff in my own version.

One thing that I've been thinking about doing is adding a "reccomended addons" section to the readme with links to things like Llaumax, the Cessna, etc. as well as instructions on how to install them all together.

I don't know if I'd want to include them with the config because then we'd have to deal with things like increased filesize (which I'm trying to keep down,) more permission, and so on. There are also a bunch of "llauma packs" out there, so IMO adding another would confuse things.

[Taconic 0]

@ June 17 2004,07:16)]This is exactly the reason why we don't talk about our "deals" in public.

This is also why I try to keep any "deals" that I make private until I get a positive answer.

I never would have mentioned it in this thread if I had gotten an answer to my PM. I had hoped that it was just forgotten and that somebody close the FDF team could pass my request along, but I didn't really anticipate that this would be the result.

In any event, I have no hard feelings towards the FDF team.

[pinetree 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh boy.

This is exactly the reason why we don't talk about our "deals" in public. Many of our offers - in the beginning and even lately - have been rejected. Still we don't have to make huge "flamefest" (I know, a bit too strong word) at public forums. Sharing of resources between mods is positive thing generally. But I guess no-one can force anyone to share their stuff against their will.

Kurayami politely asked for permission (which seems to be less common habit nowadays) and got negative answer. He decided to respect authors' wish and managed to stay calm. Why can't other people do the same?

Btw. Discussions like this aren't making any positive changes to attitudes

yes Kurayami did politely ask permission,He got this public reply:

Quote[/b] ]You don´t have to rip it, the answer is simple no, no you can not adapt FDF Mod's recoil values.

Your chap could at least be polite back "Sorry mate,you can't use cos'...."

or reply by PM as to not piss off the public.

edit:Kurayumi beat me to it.

[Gordy 0]

I agree.

This leads nowhere.

I want to say that I would like Kurayami to do his stuff.

There is one reason for it.

It is almost imposible to make a perfection from the scratch.

All existing mods give ideas on how can the OFP improve without Official intervention. It shows new directions. Remember that all new inventions are based on certain knowledge which comes from different resources.

Ask youselves. Would FDF mod look the same if it was released today? Knowing things, we know today it would be much different.

I bet on Osamas head it would.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

Well, I suppose this provides yet another negative answer to me, so I'll kill any plans to utilize things from the KEG weaponspack. I don't really understand why people aren't coming out and saying "no" when somebody extends them the courtesy of asking if they can use their work rather than simply stealing it, but I digress.

Taking something thats already done is not adding anything to the community.

You could also make a new T-55, but you chose not to because RHS' fit the bill perfectly.

I felt that the FDF Mod's recoil values were excellent and didn't need improving. One would think that would be regarded as a compliment rather than as something bad.

Some things we contribute quite freely, and you'll see probably a few familiar models in other mod projects every now and then.

Some things we can't release even if we wanted, and some things we just don't want to release, all for various reasons. If it makes us "arrogant" or "childish" then so be it, but it is our right to do so.

For Kegetys' Russian Weapons Pack, it is are freely available to be used if certain conditions are met and already have been used in various mods. As stated in readme, they mainly are about avoiding conflicting classnames and crediting original author.

If you want to modify this addon and distribute it, state clearly what has been edited and by who, and also change the pbo filename and the classnames from the config.cpp to avoid problems.

As for FDF's recoil values, they are far from perfect, AI has quite a lot of trouble shooting accurately at close ranges as it can't readjust from recoil quickly enough and ends up shooting too high (and adding skill level even makes it worse).

[kegetys 2]

For are under the BIS license, unless you have done what the coc have done and purchased a copyright then fair enough.

Nothing we have made is "under BIS license", there is no such thing as "purchasing copyright" for your own work (Maybe in your country there is but not here. You can search the forum for more discussion about it).

Quote[/b] ]However the FDF mod's attitude is getting more and more arrogant and quite honestly is uneccessary, OFP is game we play to enjoy.

Well I'm seeing hostility from your personal attitude... and while I cant say anything about "FDFmod's attitude" since we are just a bunch of people who all think of things in their own way, my personal "attitude" about things like this is that I want to see improvement and I want OFP to progress and be better. And part of that is a bit of control of what gets done to things I have made.

Quote[/b] ]Now you guys might be happy in only having one total conversion mod, as you have got your Finnish mod and your happy. I would however like to see more, I would like to see French, British, German, Swedish, Japanese, Chinese, Russian complete conversion mods and that isn't going to happen if people are so protective of their stuff.

Then why aren't you contributing work to such mods instead of debating here about issues which really aren't even your business? I certainly do want to see more mods to OFP, and what I would want to see from them is new, "revolutionary" things, not just recycling existing ideas. New things make OFP feel fresh, and while for example the new recoils in FDFmod were new when they were first introduced, they are not fresh anymore and like everywhere else there's room for improvement in them too. And with the recoils case, they are so simple to do that if you wish to improve them its easier to make totally new ones instead of trying to edit the existing ones.

Kuryami: I believe the russian weapons pack readme has a note in it which tells you what you can do with it (Or not, cant remember if I put it in back then yet), which tells you you can modify it as you wish as long as any modifications use different classnames.

And I have not said that you're a "bad guy", my replies were directed to Jinef. And its true that FDFmod has borrowed models from other mods (with permission), and other mods have borrowed models from FDFMod (with permission). Imo. its a whole different issue, since (most of?) the borrowed things implemented in FDFmod are modified to fit FDFmod's needs, like the T55's are modified to be a finnish T55's. It would have been pointless to remodel the T55's just for that. For the recoils its a different matter since modiying them is pointless, its a just a few numbers that are easier to re-write than modify the existing ones.

As for the PM's, I do not read private messages from this board, which is why, as far as I know, your request never even reached "FDFmod" before your post here. Any questions or other things about FDFmod should have been sent to FDFmod's email address (fdfmod@mbnet.fi).

[Taconic 0]

Some things we can't release even if we wanted, and some things we just don't want to release, all for various reasons. If it makes us "arrogant" or "childish" then so be it, but it is our right to do so.

I completely agree. I understand your motives and I'm not arguing with them. Within five minutes of being told that I couldn't use the values, I removed them from the development version of the config. It was that simple.

You may not know my name, but I'm not "new" to modding by any stretch of the imagination. I know what kind of work goes into things, which is why I respect the wishes of anybody whose work I'd like to use. I've simply never publically released anything that I've done (for any game) prior to this, and the only reason that I released this was because I saw that it filled a need which, at the time, nothing else filled.

Quote[/b] ]For Kegetys' Russian Weapons Pack, it is are freely available to be used if certain conditions are met and already have been used in various mods. As stated in readme, they mainly are about avoiding conflicting classnames and crediting original author.

I didn't know that. I've had that pack for ages, and the RAR that it's in had no readme.

Quote[/b] ]As for FDF's recoil values, they are far from perfect, AI has quite a lot of trouble shooting accurately at close ranges as it can't readjust from recoil quickly enough and ends up shooting too high (and adding skill level even makes it worse).

I hadn't noticed that. I still haven't seen better recoil values. Anything that I came up with on my own would probably have similarities to FDF's values since I would be using FDF as a base to judge its effectiveness against.

In any event, I'm not going to bother with the recoil values for quite a while because there are a number of scripts that I'd like to focus on over the next few versions.

[Jinef 2]

I'm obviously going to lose this argument, so to minimise damage i'll just let it go.

[Lupus-WD- 0]

In any event, I'm not going to bother with the recoil values for quite a while because there are a number of scripts that I'd like to focus on over the next few versions.

My point with the "vehicle without wheels" comparison...

it's not heated argumentation, just too bad that players won't enjoy all possible improvements that they could have enjoyed in this mod unless some of them copy/paste fdf values for private use, which i suppose some of them will do anyway.

peace

[Taconic 0]

BTW, there's one final thing that I wanted to add on this subject since Kegetys brought it up a couple of times.

My goal with this project isn't to "move OFP forward." A select few can truly be credited with making the revolutionary leaps that have moved OFP forward over the years, and I think that they know who they are (and, IMO, Kegetys certainly one of them.) However, I think that many would argue that OFP moves forward too quickly. In fact, I know this to be the case.

Look at RHS, for example. They made the great T-55 pack. How long was it in development? A year? It was finally released, and... where were the missions? I honestly can't think of more than a handful of missions that make use of them. It doesn't seem like that's a fitting end for their hard work, now does it? Look at Tonal. Tonal, for God's sake. Tonal is an amazing accomplishment, but where are the campaigns? Eight months after its release, we have Insurgency 1 and a bunch of loose single/multi player missions, which are certainly good in their own right, but in the end what we have doesn't amount to 1/8th of what we have for any given CWC island, and that's a damned shame considering its potential.

My project is to ensure that things like that don't happen as often (unfortunately Tonal is beyond the scope of it, though if I ever do get around to finishing the campaign project that I've been working on erratically since 10/01, that may change.) With this config, the missions that CSLA's BMPs appear in don't number in the tens, but hundreds. The same can be said about RHS' work or any other group's work that is included. If somebody wants to replay CWC again, why shouldn't they benefit from the advances that the community has made? There have been projects like this going on in one form or another for quite a while, so the ideology behind this is nothing new (see the desert and arctic ports of the original CWC campaign for a good example.)

What drive will people have to continue raising the bar if their past works never get the attention or use that they deserve? What's the point of spending months perfecting something only to see it used in five missions? It seems counter-productive to me, and I really don't blame the people that have gotten burned out or simply lack the will to finish what they've started because of this. Pushing forward is good, but not if you're leaving people behind.

My goal was never to be revolutionary. It was to be evolutionary. If I wanted to be revolutionary, I would have chosen another project.