Us presidential election 2004

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]More indeep article on it. Interesting read. No ties ?

No, caught with a lie !

LOL! He did not break the law (different client and did not pass on info).

http://www.democrats.org/wvc/weekinreview/200305120002.html

Quote[/b] ]

Raise Your Democratic Voice! President Bush has ordered his most loyal and partisan supporters to contact their Senators and Representatives in Congress to pressure them to pass his irresponsible tax giveaway.

It's time to fight back.

The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]More indeep article on it. Interesting read. No ties ?

No, caught with a lie !

LOL! He did not break the law (different client and did not pass on info).

http://www.democrats.org/wvc/weekinreview/200305120002.html

Quote[/b] ]

Raise Your Democratic Voice! President Bush has ordered his most loyal and partisan supporters to contact their Senators and Representatives in Congress to pressure them to pass his irresponsible tax giveaway.

It's time to fight back.

The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.

Quote[/b] ]The Democratic Party is partnering with MoveOn.org, People for the American Way, Campaign for America's Future, and dozens of other groups representing millions of Americans to organize a massive public mobilization. On Wednesday, May 14, join us by calling and emailing your representatives in Congress to let them know that the majority of Americans oppose more irresponsible tax cuts that go overwhelmingly to the wealthiest sliver of Americans.

You mistake "partnership" with financial support for alleged "independant" groups. For instance, the Swift Boat group can be directly linked to Karl Rove and George Bush Sr.

Members of a campaign may not also be apart of an "independant" group, especially if they might support (whether ideologically or financially) a candidate. That is why Bush's campaign lawyer had to resign.

[Bernadotte 0]

He did not break the law (different client and did not pass on info).

I'll tell you how it works, Billlybob2002.

A pizzaman makes pizza for both the Swift Boat folks and the Bush people.  While delivering the Swift Boat pizza he's told that they'll pay for the other pizza too, or at least most of it.  This way the Bush people get to save money on pizza.

Why would the Swift people do that?

Well, it's all because the billionaires, corporations and other wealthy Bush supportors cannot legally give as much money to the Bush people as they would like to.  However, there's no limit on how much they can give to the Swift organisation.

Ironically, this could have been one of the very matters that both Swift and Bush people hired Attorney Ginsburg to look into for them.  Now, who do you suppose got the kegal advice and who do you suppose got the invoice?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well, it's all because the billionaires, corporations and other wealthy Bush supportors cannot legally give as much money to the Bush people as they would like to. However, there's no limit on how much they can give to the Swift organisation.

Sounds like the dems....Soros and his billionaires/millionaires

Quote[/b] ]Ironically, this could have been one of the very matters that both Swift and Bush people hired Attorney Ginsburg to look into for them. Now, who do you suppose got the kegal advice and who do you suppose got the invoice?

Guessing game

[Bernadotte 0]

Sounds like the dems....Soros and his billionaires/millionaires

Oh really?  What advisors have you discovered working for both Kerry and Soros beneficiary organisations?

Or is this just another one of your Billybobbles?

[Balschoiw 0]

Billybob seems to have a very flexible morale attitude anyway. He doesn´t have a problem with a president lying, while I do see that as a problem. Credibility is not formed by lying but that seems to be enough for billybob...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Billybob seems to have a very flexible morale attitude anyway. He doesn´t have a problem with a president lying, while I do see that as a problem. Credibility is not formed by lying but that seems to be enough for billybob...

Got real hard proof that thet lied about the swift thingy.

Quote[/b] ]Oh really?  What advisors have you discovered working for both Kerry and Soros beneficiary organisations?

Or is this just another one of your Billybobbles?

It is a reason I only quoted that part because Soros and his friends cannot give their money to the Kerry co. but they give money to groups like moveon.org and etc.. Majority of those 527 groups are anti-Bush and get major cash from the rich.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....oat_ads

Quote[/b] ]Bush, McCain Discuss Ads by Outside Groups

1 hour, 44 minutes ago  

By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer

LAS CRUCES, N.M. - President Bush (news - web sites) wants to work with Republican Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record) to go to court against political ads by "shadowy" outside groups, the White House said Thursday amid growing pressure on the president to denounce attacks on John Kerry (news - web sites)'s war record.

"We want to pursue court action," Bush spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One en route to New Mexico. "The president said if the court action doesn't work, that he would be willing to pursue legislative action with Sen. McCain on that."

McClellan did not say when any of those steps would be taken. Election Day is Nov. 2.

The debate over Kerry's service in Vietnam has dominated the presidential race in recent weeks after the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth aired ads questioning the Democratic nominee's decorated record.

McCain, R-Ariz., has called on Bush to condemn the anti-Kerry ads, even as the war hero popular with many independent voters is actively supporting Bush's re-election. The senator welcomed Bush's gesture.

"I'm very appreciative of the president's effort to do that," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press. "I want to emphasize if I could that we're not saying that 527s should be abolished. We're just saying they should live under the same campaign finance restrictions (as hard money groups) because they are engaged in partisan activity."

McCain added: "I've said before I would like for the president to specifically condemn that ad, but the president has said John Kerry served honorably and also the president is now committed to acting to try to bring 527s into regulations that are appropriate."

Bush called McCain from Air Force One and the two had a brief discussion about the matter, McClellan said.

Bush has criticized all outside group attack ads, including the Swift Boat Veterans group's first commercial. He has said he wants the ads to stop, but has not explicitly condemned the charges made in the Swift Boat ad.

Responding to the White House statement, Kerry spokesman Phil Singer said, "This isn't an issue about 527 ads or campaign finance: It's a question of whether the commander in chief will denounce a group whose claims have been discredited by eyewitness accounts, official naval records and, in some cases, their own words."

McClellan said the goal is "to shut down all of this activity by these shadowy groups."

But the only complaint the Bush campaign and the GOP have filed with the Federal Election Commission (news - web sites) accused the Kerry campaign of illegally coordinating millions of dollars worth of anti-Bush ads with Democratic-leaning soft-money groups, Bush-Cheney spokesman Scott Stanzel said.

It was the FEC's May 13 decision not to act on the complaint that allows the Bush campaign to turn to legal action, McClellan said.

"The FEC had an opportunity to act," McClellan said. "They did not act so that allows those who filed those complaints to pursue action against the FEC."

The Kerry campaign filed its own complaint last week with the FEC, alleging that Swift Boat Veterans for Truth was illegally coordinating its efforts with the Bush-Cheney campaign.

All sides deny the allegations, and neither campaign has produced proof of coordination on the part of its rival.

Mike Russell, a spokesman for the Swift Boat group, said Thursday that "we're going to continue doing what we're doing because this group is made up of more than 250 veterans who feel it is their obligation to tell the truth about John Kerry's military service."

"We're obviously going to abide by the spirit and letter of the law but as it sits right now 527s are free to operate and we're going to continue to do so," he said.

In a separate but related matter, McCain said he wanted Kerry to stop using him in advertising that denounces the anti-Kerry swift boat group. "I very much do not want them to use clips from my primary campaign against the president," said the Republican, who lost to Bush in 2000 and is joining the president on the campaign trail this week. The Kerry campaign pulled those ads on Thursday.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]what Cheney is doing is a classic dodging manuever. let the states decide, not the federal gov't.

Same thing Kerry is doing with abortion .

Quote[/b] ]He doesn´t have a problem with a president lying, while I do see that as a problem.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Same thing Kerry is doing with abortion .

Also, gay marriage...

[General Barron 0]

Whooo boy.... I read the last few pages of this thread, and it makes me shake my head. I just gotta give props to BillyBob, the only bush supporter posting in this thread (at least in the last few pages). It takes a cool character to keep posting in this sort of intolerant, name-calling atmosphere.

Quote[/b] ]Credibility is not formed by lying but that seems to be enough for billybob...

Quote[/b] ]Or is this just another one of your Billybobbles?

Quote[/b] ]Who writes your scripts?

Quote[/b] ]You got me again, you tricky Republican you!!!  

Quote[/b] ]Try a little freedom billybob2002 it is a great thing. Thinking for your self is the most important thing any person can do.

It just gives me a warm fuzzy to hear the way you enlightened, tolerant Liberals treat people with diverse views different than your own.

It's kinda like the way Liberals are such champions of Free Speech and the First Amendment. Oh, unless they don't like what is being said. In that case, they will have to take legal action to try to shut you up. Yeah, I really think Kerry is going to support my right to dissent, when he is trying to bully a bunch of war heroes out of their freedom of speech.

Lets compare Bush vs Kerry on this issue. Bush gets all sorts of attacks thrown at him from all sorts of "independent" 520 groups, such as moveon.org, the media fund, etc. Oh yeah, lets not forget Michael Moore's completely objective "documentary". That wasn't an attack on Bush or anything. And Moore certainly hasn't lied in his past "documentries" right ? So Bush has all this mud thrown his way, and what does he do? Nothing.

Now look at Kerry. One (two now) little $200,000 add gets thrown his way, and he is crying "UNFAIR" to the FEC. One little book gets written against him, and he tries to get the publisher to stop printing it. How many books have been written comparing Bush to Hitler? How many of those books has Bush tried to get pulled?

Quote[/b] ]Well, it's all because the billionaires, corporations and other wealthy Bush supportors cannot legally give as much money to the Bush people as they would like to.  However, there's no limit on how much they can give to the Swift organisation.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of the money in these "527" groups goes to support Kerry. All you Bush haters out there are either unaware of that fact, or you choose to ignore it. In case you didn't know, billionaires and corporations contribute to Democrats as well as Republicans. Corporations often contribute money to both sides of the same race. That way, no matter who wins, the corporation still gets its subsidy, or its law, or whatever.

edit sp

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of the money in these "520" groups goes to support Kerry.

The fact of the matter is that Kerrys campaign is not funding these ads, and the Kerrys campaigns lawyer is not giving legal advice to the "independent" organisations.

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]The fact of the matter is that Kerrys campaign is not funding these ads,

The Bush campaign isn't funding these ads either  . You're argument is irrelevent.

Quote[/b] ]Kerrys campaigns lawyer is not giving legal advice to the "independent" organisations.

The DNC's lawyer sure is doing that.

Quote[/b] ]Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/24/veterans.group.ap/

Besides, so what if the Bush campaign's former lawyer was giving advice to both groups? Show me where that is illegal.

*edit*

The law states that these 527 groups cannot coordinate their efforts with any candidate. A lawyer giving legal advise to a group is in no way coordinating with that group, no matter who he is employed by at the time. If you can find evidence that this lawyer actually did more than just give legal advise to the group, and actually coordinated things with the group, then it is illegal.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]The Bush campaign isn't funding these ads either . You're argument is irrelevent.

From reuters:

Quote[/b] ]Records show the Swift Boat group received some of its funding from long-time Bush supporters and an ad features one veteran, Ken Cordier, who was on a Bush campaign committee until last week, when he was forced to quit.

Quote[/b] ]The DNC's lawyer sure is doing that

Yes, the lawyer for the democratic party is doing that, but not Kerrys campaign lawyer. Now correct me if im wrong, but that is not forbidden by law. (maybe Akira can give us a lecture about this)

Quote[/b] ]The DNC plans the Party's quadrennial presidential nominating convention; promotes election of Party candidates with technical and financial support; and works with national, state, and local party organizations, elected officials, candidates, and constituencies to respond to the needs and views of the Democratic electorate and the nation.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, so what if the Bush campaign's former lawyer was giving advice to both groups?

Quote[/b] ]The White House is trying to deflect charges by Kerry of collusion between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans. The White House denies any ties, but its case was hurt on Wednesday when a top lawyer for the Bush campaign, Benjamin Ginsberg, resigned after disclosing he was providing legal advice to the group.

You are right, he is a former lawyer now , but he wasnt before wendesday

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]The DNC's lawyer sure is doing that.

Quick, cover that up !

Quote[/b] ]Yes, the lawyer for the democratic party is doing that, but not Kerrys campaign lawyer.

Picky, picky, picky. The DNC is supporting Kerry, is it not?

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]Records show the Swift Boat group received some of its funding from long-time Bush supporters and an ad features one veteran, Ken Cordier, who was on a Bush campaign committee until last week, when he was forced to quit.

Again, an irrelevant argument. You implied that the Bush campaign was funding these ads. There is nothing illegal with a person who contributes money to one campaign also contributing money to one of these 527s. If there was, then George Sorros would be in a $h!t load of trouble.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, the lawyer for the democratic party is doing that, but not Kerrys campaign lawyer.

Ok, but you just said yourself that the DNC is coordinating efforts with Kerry's campaign, and thus it cannot be considered an independent group:

Quote[/b] ]The DNC plans the Party's quadrennial presidential nominating convention; promotes election of Party candidates with technical and financial support; and works with national, state, and local party organizations, elected officials, candidates, and constituencies to respond to the needs and views of the Democratic electorate and the nation.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Again, an irrelevant argument. You implied that the Bush campaign was funding these ads. There is nothing illegal with a person who contributes money to one campaign also contributing money to one of these 527s. If there was, then George Sorros would be in a $h!t load of trouble.

Soros is not in the Kerrys campaign committee ,

unlike the member of Bush campaign commitee who financed these ads

Why do you think that he was forced to quit?

Quote[/b] ]Ok, but you just said yourself that the DNC is coordinating efforts with Kerry's campaign, and thus it cannot be considered an independent group:

I didnt say so, dont put words in my mouth. DNC is a goddamn party, is there something wrong in partys supporting candidates?

its not an indpendent group. Coordinating campaign with the presidential nominees hardly makes it independent. Im sure Bush has some support from his party also.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Bush gets all sorts of attacks thrown at him from all sorts of "independent" 520 groups, such as moveon.org, the media fund, etc. Oh yeah, lets not forget Michael Moore's completely objective "documentary".

All they have said are facts (in general).

Whereas for example swiftboatvets are knowingly lying. that makes a big difference.

Quote[/b] ]It's kinda like the way Liberals are such champions of Free Speech and the First Amendment. Oh, unless they don't like what is being said. In that case, they will have to take legal action to try to shut you up. Yeah, I really think Kerry is going to support my right to dissent, when he is trying to bully a bunch of war heroes out of their freedom of speech.

I dont know about your laws but in here, you are braking the law if you insult someone. Especially in bublic. The closest word i could find from a dictionary is libel action.

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]unlike the member of Bush campaign commitee who financed these ads

That's not what you said here:

Quote[/b] ]Records show... an ad features one veteran, Ken Cordier, who was on a Bush campaign committee until last week, when he was forced to quit.

He didn't fund it, he just appeared in a commercial. And obviously the Bush campaign decided that it wasn't a good idea for him to still be working for the campaign after appearing in the ad, so they forced him to quit.

This is a ridiculous argument though. Obviously, Kerry has been benefiting FAR MORE from these 527's than Bush has. This whole FEC BS is just a publicity stunt by the Kerry campaign, and apparently it is working.

How about this: the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Trush. At the same time, the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Kerry campaign and 527's such as Moveon.org, the media fund, etc. Anyone who would only call for an end to certain 527's on ONE side of the issue is being a hypocrite.

How about we see some debate over the issues and not this stupid crap?

[General Barron 0]

Quote[/b] ]Whereas for example swiftboatvets are knowingly lying. that makes a big difference.

Name specifically what they lied about. Are you going to tell me that Kerry really didn't compare American soldiers to Gengis Kahn's thugs? I could have SWORN that it was Kerry's voice in that commercial.

I won't even get into Michael Moore's lies. However, in America we have the freedom to lie, be it in a book or a "documentary".

Quote[/b] ]I dont know about your laws but in here, you are breaking the law if you insult someone. Especially in public.

Wow, if that were the law here in America, a lot of people would be in jail. Have you seen any of the anti-bush ads around here? I'd be pretty insulted, if I were Bush.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The major pointer to these Swift Fantasist controlers is that they are the same guys who did the dirty on Sen John McCain.

Personaly I have no problem with their fantasy attacks like I said to Billybob 'Backlash is a bitch.'

The Bush camp sowed the Swift Fantasy now they have got to reap the whirl wind the swift fantasists and Bush should stop moaning.

The fact the electorate is wise to their fantasy is only to be expected. Like the emperor with no clothes, nobody is fooled by it any more.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

Wow, if that were the law here in America, a lot of people would be in jail.

You should read up on your laws. Relevant keywords are "defamation", "libel" and "slander" - all against US law.

http://injury-law.freeadvice.com/libel_and_slander/

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]unlike the member of Bush campaign commitee who financed these ads

That's not what you said here:

Quote[/b] ]Records show... an ad features one veteran, Ken Cordier, who was on a Bush campaign committee until last week, when he was forced to quit.

He didn't fund it, he just appeared in a commercial. And obviously the Bush campaign decided that it wasn't a good idea for him to still be working for the campaign after appearing in the ad, so they forced him to quit.

This is a ridiculous argument though. Obviously, Kerry has been benefiting FAR MORE from these 527's than Bush has. This whole FEC BS is just a publicity stunt by the Kerry campaign, and apparently it is working.

How about this: the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Trush. At the same time, the FEC should investigate possible ties between the Kerry campaign and 527's such as Moveon.org, the media fund, etc. Anyone who would only call for an end to certain 527's on ONE side of the issue is being a hypocrite.

How about we see some debate over the issues and not this stupid crap?

I ment this:

Quote[/b] ]Records show the Swift Boat group received some of its funding from long-time Bush supporters and an ad features one veteran, Ken Cordier, who was on a Bush campaign committee until last week, when he was forced to quit.

Reuters

[walker 0]

I just gotta give props to BillyBob, the only bush supporter posting in this thread (at least in the last few pages). It takes a cool character to keep posting in this sort of intolerant, name-calling atmosphere...

...

Quote[/b] ]Who writes your scripts?

...

Quote[/b] ]Try a little freedom billybob2002 it is a great thing. Thinking for your self is the most important thing any person can do.

...

...It just gives me a warm fuzzy to hear the way you enlightened, tolerant Liberals treat people with diverse views different than your own...

It's kinda like the way Liberals are such champions of Free Speech and the First Amendment...

Hi General Barron

At least quote the whole paragraph. It was in reference that his posts were a great big quote followed by a single line.

I wanted his own full opinion.

On the matter of him posting and keeping to his guns. I totaly respect it but if you think I will be nice because of it forget it. I will still spend the necassary effort to smash you aguments and maybe change your mind. At the very least show me you thought about what you are saying.

Like billybob2002 has on occasions you seem to have mixed me up with some namby pamby lefty. I am not. I am a Practical Anarchist. Dont expect me to be all soft and gooey.

Quote[/b] ]Hi billybob2002

Who writes your scripts? Can you you write a single line on your own behalf or do your party bosses write it all for you?

The Communist tendancy of the republican party never ceases to amaze me with its gulability and blind faith in the party line. Kruschev must laugh his socks off at how well he has taught the US republican party to be regimented little apparatchiks.

The sadest thing is that now the NeoConsMen have taken over the US republican party just like the bolshevics took over the rusian revolution against the monarchy.

Try a little freedom billybob2002 it is a great thing. Thinking for your self is the most important thing any person can do.

Kind Regards Walker

As I said I prefer people who do a little free thinking, to some mindless commie republican prole. Dont' just quote stuff at me, argue your case like a man find out what it is your talking about and understand it so you dont have to just quote the party line. By all means point to your research I do too but it is part of a reasoned argument. Not waiving chairman Cheney's little red book.

Kind Regards Walker

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]He didn't fund it, he just appeared in a commercial. And obviously the Bush campaign decided that it wasn't a good idea for him to still be working for the campaign after appearing in the ad, so they forced him to quit.

LOL

Check your facts. Bush didn't force him to quit, he resigned after the Dem's, rightfully, rose a stink about the fact someone working with Bush's campaign committee appears in an alleged "independant" group's commerical.

Quote[/b] ]Name specifically what they lied about. Are you going to tell me that Kerry really didn't compare American soldiers to Gengis Kahn's thugs? I could have SWORN that it was Kerry's voice in that commercial.

All of the SBVfT claims about Kerry, including his false Purple Heart, and the account of events leading to his Bronze Star, have been backed up by Navy records, and people that were actually there.

Members of SBVfT that raise doubts about these events, turn out they weren't even there, including the doctor who claimed to work on Kerry's wound, in direct contradiction to Navy records.

Also, that commercial does a good job of creative editing (something Moore does as well). Kerry is telling of what he heard, or witnessed.

Veterans are raising a stink about the fact that Kerry called them animals, when in fact he did no such thing. And for the veterans to make it sound like those things never happened in the first place is ridiculous. Not all veterans are paragons of virtue.

Quote[/b] ]Again, an irrelevant argument. You implied that the Bush campaign was funding these ads.

MSNBC's Hardball, CNN, and other news organizations have all made direct financial links from SBVfT to Karl Rove and George Bush Sr. That is against the law.

I thought you said you read the last few pages?

Quote[/b] ]Picky, picky, picky. The DNC is supporting Kerry, is it not?

I should hope so! He's their damn candidate!

Quote[/b] ]Yes, the lawyer for the democratic party is doing that, but not Kerrys campaign lawyer. Now correct me if im wrong, but that is not forbidden by law. (maybe Akira can give us a lecture about this)

I don't lecture

Campaign workers can not have direct links or contacts (financial or otherwise) with "independant" groups. For one to appear in a commercial was pretty damn stupid.