The Iraq thread 3

[quicksand 0]

Violence continues in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]NAJAF, Iraq - Gunmen opened fire on the Spanish garrison in the holy city of Najaf on Sunday during a huge demonstration by followers of an anti-American Shiite Muslim cleric. At least 14 Iraqis died, including two soldiers, and 130 were wounded. Two U.S. Marines died in violence in Anbar province bringing to 600 the number of Americans killed in the war.

North of the capital, a bomb killed three members of the Iraqi security forces.

Later in Baghdad gunfire was heard in the center of the capital during a similar protest called by backers of the charismatic young cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr

Two U.S. Marines, both assigned to the 1st Marine Division, were killed as a result of separate "enemy action" in Anbar province on Saturday, the military said in a statement. One died the same day; the other died Sunday. The statement provided no other details.

A bomb exploded Sunday near a checkpoint in Samarra, about 60 miles north of Baghdad, that was manned by Iraqi Civil Defense Corps personnel, killing three and wounding one, workers at Samarra General Hospital said.

In southern Iraq on Sunday, rebels attacked an oil pipeline, rupturing it and setting the oil on fire, said Jamal Khalid, an official with the Southern Oil Company.

Looks like the Shi`ites are starting to loose their patiance and confidence in the Americans.I am very curious about future developments.The US can`t handle the handfull of resistance fighters right now,I can only imagine what will happen if the Shi`ites turn agaisnt them.

[Antichrist 0]

That's a really interesting version of the story. Cause I heard the same story about demonstration couple of times, and they said that Spanish soldiers opened fire first for no reason

[Scorpio 0]

That's a really interesting version of the story. Cause I heard the same story about demonstration couple of times, and they said that Spanish soldiers opened fire first for no reason  

The wonders of propaganda, dude.

[Acecombat 0]

That's a really interesting version of the story. Cause I heard the same story about demonstration couple of times, and they said that Spanish soldiers opened fire first for no reason  

The wonders of propaganda, dude.

I am sorry but it could be either way. I wont b quick to latch on the propaganda issue.

[denoir 0]

It would not be the first time. US troops have before after minimal provocation fired into crowds. So it's fully possible that the Spanish troops did is as well. Crowds can be really nasty and inexperienced peace keepers can easily panic and fire into the crowd.

Anyway what is a significant change here is like quicKsanD said: it looks like the Shia support is slipping. If it does disappear then the whole Iraq mission is fucked. It's as simple as that.

[turms 0]

Seems like shiites are almost revolting and the casualities of US are on the rise:

Quote[/b] ]Seven US soldiers were killed in the Sadr City area of Baghdad as they battled to regain control of buildings occupied by the Mehdi Army. Unconfirmed reports say at least 22 Iraqis also died and many were wounded on both sides

Quote[/b] ]Two senior US congressmen have warned President George W Bush's administration that Iraq faces the possibility of civil war.

EDIT; forgot the link

EDIT: 10 us dead on sunday alone.link

[Bernadotte 0]

... it looks like the Shia support is slipping. If it does disappear then the whole Iraq mission is fucked. It's as simple as that.

They're there, man.  The Shiite has hit the fan.  (...oh my, that was bad)

[quicksand 0]

It`s happening.Policemans are leaving their posts and are joining Al-Sadr followers.Plus the fighting is still continuating and US vehicles are reported to be in flames in Baghdad.

Finally they`re gonna have to change their lines because:

"Baathists desperate loyallits and foreign fighters behind attacks on coalition troops" or "Iraqis want us there" isn`t working any more.

[Balschoiw 0]

Violent upsurge across Iraq

Quote[/b] ]A wave of violence exceptional even by Iraq's standards spread across the country yesterday, leaving at least nine coalition troops dead and dozens more injured and raising fresh concerns about security less than three months before the handover of power to an Iraqi government.

In the worst incident at least 20 Iraqi protesters and two soldiers - one American, one Salvadorean - were killed and more than 200 people injured in Kufa, near Najaf, during a demonstration to denounce the closure of a militant Baghdad newspaper and the arrest of an aide to the hardline Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

The protests spread to cities across the south and to Baghdad, where seven US soldiers were killed and at least 24 injured trying to regain control of the eastern Shia slums. British troops clashed with Shia protesters in the southeastern town of Amara, and a number of Iraqis were injured in gunbattles.

Earlier, two US marines were killed in the restive Sunni triangle west of Baghdad, bringing to 600 the number of US troops killed since the start of the war.

There were further bombings meanwhile in Kirkuk and Samarra and a Shia mosque north of Baghdad, while an oil pipeline was set alight in southern Iraq.

The security crisis prompted a leading US Republican, Senator Richard Lugar, to question whether the Bush administration's June 30 deadline for turning over sovereignty to the Iraqis should be extended.

Iraq is one step from civil war now. A handover in June get´s more unlikely every day. The situation is out of control. Coalition forces can not establish security in Iraq and moreover fail to assist the Iraqi policemen whome they send to battle and don´t support them.

Mission Iraq is lost.

The intel that was used for the Iraq war was made up and noone questioned it´s content of truth. Now the TBA blaims CIA but misses to state that TBA insisted on publishing dubiouse intel prior the war. Even warnings went unheared through the heads of TBA.

Powell admits intelligence on Iraq was flawed

Quote[/b] ]US Secretary of State Colin Powell has admitted that the 'most dramatic' part of his pre-war presentation to the United Nations on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was based on flawed intelligence.

He said the information on mobile biological weapons laboratories used in a speech to the UN Security Council on Feb 5 last year was compiled from unreliable sources.

Quote[/b] ]Mr Powell said he hoped a commission investigating the US intelligence on Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction would reveal how the Central Intelligence Agency ended up depending on dubious sources for key evidence he used to argue for war.

'That was the most dramatic of them (pieces of evidence) and I made sure it was multi-sourced,' he said. 'Now if the sources fell apart, then we need to find out how we've gotten ourselves in that position.'

I remember some months ago we already said it would come that way. The made up evidence would collapse and the guilty ones will be the CIA. Nice to see that we were right with our proposals.

I hope people won´t buy the CIA excuse from TBA and a cdorrect investigation is done, because it will be found out that CIA is not the only one to blame. TBA insisted on publishing false and made up intel. They were warned to do so but they did it intentionally. Therefore they should be taken to court and jail.

Quote[/b] ]In recent weeks, US news organisations have reported that one of the sources used by Mr Powell had been cited by US intelligence officials as unreliable even before his presentation. The warning, however, was missed during the preparation of Mr Powell's speech.

Another source, who provided the eyewitness description of the labs, had never been interviewed by US intelligence - which did not even know his real name until after the war, according to a report in the Los Angeles Times. -- Washington Post, Reuters

The TBA did know that the sources they used were dubiouse and false but they used them on purpose. That´s fact.

Edit, update:

U.S. Helicopters Attack Targets in Baghdad

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (Reuters) - Fresh fighting between U.S. forces and Shi'ite militiamen erupted in a Baghdad neighborhood Monday, with two Apache helicopters firing on targets in the area, Reuters journalists at the scene said.

A U.S. vehicle was also in flames in the area, a predominantly Shi'ite neighborhood.

Expect the next days to get very hot in Iraq.

[WhoCares 0]

Indeed, if these developments gain further momentum the coalition will lose Iraq. They apparently switch now from single attacks to coordinated actions across the country.

Basra, Baghdad, Najaf and Kufa and Amara (in Balschoiws quote).

Currently it seems like it is just one Shi'ite leader, let's hope it doesn't become a general movement.

What I also miss, is the number of killed (and wounded) Iraqi security forces, for two reasons:

1. just for the 'statistical' aspect,

2. those are the people to build the new Iraq upon - they deserve to be properly credited (not just with the death toll but with their will and determination to establish and preserve law, order and stability).

[quicksand 0]

Yes,of course,the Iraqi security forces:

Quote[/b] ]The fighting erupted when five trucks of US soldiers and the Iraqi Civil Defence Corps (ICDC) tried to enter the district and were attacked by Sadr supporters, Amid said.

Coming under fire, the ICDC, a paramilitary force trained by the Americans, turned on the US soldiers and started to shoot at them, according to Amid.

The soldiers fled their vehicles and headed for cover and then began to battle both the Mehdi Army and the ICDC members, he said. Their vehicles were set ablaze.

Article

In other two incidents Iraqi policemans were reported to leave their posts and let Sadr followers take control.

In Fallujah policemans openly announced that they will never intervine against the resistance.

What I am trying to point out is that they aren`t US pets as some think.They know that they are viewed as cannon fodder now that US has retreated from major cities.

So it`s a simple case of should they die for an occupying force that has no respect for them,should they engage Iraqis who are fighting for their freedom?

I guess they finally said screw this,I`ll better die fighting side by side with my brothers then with US soldiers.

[WhoCares 0]

Well, for one, we should not generalize such a single incidence. I still put some faith into those volunteers. Surely, there are also insurgents that spread fundamentalistic propaganda and distrust toward the coalition forces. However, all the attacks against the police forces are probably the best proof, that they are still the biggest threat for whatever goal the various opposing forces have.

And with respect to the police in Falluja, what could they do? The coalition apparently abandoned the city - if they had said anything different there probably woudn't be any police stations today...

Quote[/b] ]So it`s a simple case of should they die for an occupying force that has no respect for them,should they engage Iraqis who are fighting for their freedom?

That's exactly my point - and one way for this to work is to pay the same respect to iraqi casualties as to coalition casualties. Those guys are actually more important - the coalition forces are replaceable(*) and will leave sooner or later and then it is solely those guys that have to hold the country together - and there is no unlimited pool to fetch them from...

(*) No disrespect meant to any dead coalition soldiers - while I disagree with the war itself, I don't blame individual soldiers for fighting and dying in that war.

And with respect to replaceable - when it ever should really get hot again, I am quiet sure you will also see german, french, russian, put war opposing nation here troops there, as part of an UN-approved force of course. Be it pre- or post-election, but with a significant shift in the US Iraq policies.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ] I still put some faith into those volunteers. Surely, there are also insurgents that spread fundamentalistic propaganda and distrust toward the coalition forces.

Hardly fundamentalistic propaganda.The US screwed up and Iraqis are seeing it.You see they had their chance.They made promises and Iraqis gave them a chance fulfill them but they failed.

One year after the war ended are we seeing any security improvments?People joyfull for they`re new jobs and happy that they don`t have to fear anymore being taken in the middle of the night in to arrest for no reason?

Quite the opposite.This isn`t propaganda,only plain facts.

I belive the policemans are now acting out of nationalist sentiment mainly because the Iraqi Resistance isn`t anymore thought as Baathists loyallists that want to torture the Shia`s all over again nor foreign fighters that want chaos in their country.With the recent joining of Al-Sadr if events stay on this course we could see the Resitance taking shape as the Iraqi nation itself.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]AUCKLAND — New Zealand's 60 army engineers in Iraq will be withdrawn in September when their tour of duty ends, Prime Minister Helen Clark said Friday.

After meeting with visiting Australian opposition leader Mark Latham, she told reporters New Zealand may then look at further ways of helping Iraq's return to full sovereignty.

"In the case of New Zealand, with the commitments we have made to the international effort against terrorism and the reconstruction of Iraq, we have tended to take decisions which have a time period on them," Clark said.

"But we may then come back and do the same thing again at another point when we have force regeneration."

New Zealand had done this with Special Air Services forces in Afghanistan who had been withdrawn and later redeployed in the war-ravaged country.

Latham said New Zealand's decision not to send combat troops to Iraq was in line with Australian Labor Party policy.

"If Labor had been in government in Australia, we wouldn't have had troops in Iraq in the first place," he said.

Latham has said Labor would withdraw Australia's 850 military personnel from Iraq by Christmas if it wins the election due by the end of this year. (Wire reports)

Australia is going to the voting booths relatively soon. And Iraq is going to be a hot issue.

If a 'civil war' breaks in Iraq, as it seems to be doing, then I have no doubt, that the opposition will win, and if Latham stands by his word, that's bad news for Australian diplomats, and bad news for the coalition, and a sign that Iraqs sovereignty will take a hell of a lot longer than anyone would like, if at all, through peaceful means.

[Balschoiw 0]

Iraq administrator outlaws Muslim cleric

Quote[/b] ]The United States civilian administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, has branded the radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr an outlaw and warned that US-led forces will not tolerate any uprising by his followers.

Speaking to a meeting of Iraq's national security committee, Paul Bremer said Sadr was effectively trying to establish his authority in the place of the legitimate authority.

Mr Bremer said this would not be tolerated and the Coalition would assert law and order as the Iraqi people expected.

As he spoke in the Baghdad slum district of Sadr city, thousands of Sadr supporters were gathering on the streets.

After a night of pitched battles with US troops, seven soldiers and more than 20 Sadr supporters have been left dead and scores of others injured.

In central Baghdad, US forces put on a show of strength sealing off major intersections with tanks and armoured personnel carriers and pulling down Sadr posters from surrounding buildings.

Meanwhile, US-led forces have sealed off the town of Fallujah where four American security guards were killed and their bodies burned and mutilated last week.

Witnesses are reporting heavy firing on the outskirts of the city and US forces have closed the nearby highway linking Baghdad with the Jordanian border.

And further south in Basra, Sadr supporters have taken over the governer's offices in what they say is a peaceful sit in.

The cleric's supporters have also staged protests in other Iraqi cities today including Kerbala, Najaf and Kufa.

Jihad is on it´s way to Iraq.

It only was a question of time.

The recent developement in Iraq was forseeable. 60 percent of the Iraqi people are Shiite Muslims.

Their influence on Iraq administration or the elections coming tends to zero. They are just not taken into the coaltion boat and are willing to fight for this right.

Again the Iraqi interim leadership failed to see and handle the situation properly. It´s not good to exclude 60 percent of the population from the democracy process. Interesting read from january here:

Shiite Unity Challenges U.S. Plan in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Mustafa Muhammad, a 35 year-old demonstrator, said, “Shia people are against killing members of the coalition. But we will do whatever al-Sistani asks us to do. I know many women who are prepared to pick up guns if they are asked to do so.â€

Another demonstrator, Hussein Ali, said, “If America won’t give us the democracy they promised, we will make it for ourselves.â€

In the background the booming voice over the loudspeaker chanted, “We are ready to be killed for our country!â€

Two observation helicopters of the US military circled the huge demonstration as it made its way down the street, but otherwise no US troops were to be seen.

The Shia of Iraq, who dwell mostly in the South of the country, are struggling to emerge from the long oppression under the regime of Saddam Hussein. They are notably suspicious since the widely acknowledged betrayal by the United States of a previous independence movement shortly after the first Gulf War in 1991.

Observers here in Baghdad widely agree it appears as though al-Sistani has become adamant about his demands for true elections out of a concern of the Shia becoming cut from political power in Iraq once again.

Al-Sistani believes the US wants to retain control over the government of Iraq. He claims he has no intention of running for high office; instead he simply wants an elected government. With estimates suggesting the Shia comprise 60% of the population of Iraq, any fully democratic election would certainly favor them as a group.

It´s simply extremely stupid to think those people who form the majority of Iraq´s population would sit down and accept everything they got served by Bremmer. They have a voice and now they make their voice heard.

Congratulations.

[bucket man 2]

Just heard from the radio that american marines are attacking Fallujah. Last week some marine commander said that they will be back. He sounds like the Terminator which he brobably is.

Hopefully civilians in Fallujah dont start to fight against americans if they try to come back. They could not win and in worst situation americans resort to massive airstrikes to root out resistance.

[aj_addons 0]

why do i get the feeling were about to see the start of the war properly now

[Ironsight 1]

Just heard from the radio that american marines are attacking Fallujah. Last week some marine commander said that they will be back.   He sounds like the Terminator which he brobably is.

Hopefully civilians in Fallujah dont start to fight against americans if they try to come back. They could not win and in worst situation americans resort to massive airstrikes to root out resistance.  

The latest news I heard is that coalition forces are blocking every way into Fallujah and are searching in everyone's car who gets out.

Maybe they finally are going to do something about the resistance in Fallujah. Expect in a few days heavy streetfighting.

[WhoCares 0]

Sometimes I wonder what parts of the country are actually under the control of the coalition forces. Must be a desert here and there, but apparently not the Cities...

Quote[/b] ]...Sadr responded defiantly. "I'm accused by one of the leaders of evil, Bremer, of being an outlaw," he said in a statement read out in a mosque in Kufa, near Najaf, where he is staging a sit-in...

So he sits there in his mosque, having a good time, while...

Quote[/b] ]...Shooting crackled on the road between Najaf and Kufa in a fresh clash involving pro-Sadr fighters, a Reuters journalist at the scene said. Three Humvees sped away from the area...

Article

[bn880 5]

Just heard from the radio that american marines are attacking Fallujah. Last week some marine commander said that they will be back. He sounds like the Terminator which he brobably is.

Hopefully civilians in Fallujah dont start to fight against americans if they try to come back. They could not win and in worst situation americans resort to massive airstrikes to root out resistance.

The latest news I heard is that coalition forces are blocking every way into Fallujah and are searching in everyone's car who gets out.

Maybe they finally are going to do something about the resistance in Fallujah. Expect in a few days heavy streetfighting.

Oh great, siege warfare all over again.

[WhoCares 0]

As I talked about the iraqi death toll, I found a general reference. (with numbers for all kinds of casualties)

Quote[/b] ]On 20 October 2003 the Project on Defense Alternatives estimated that between 10,800 and 15,100 Iraqis were killed in the war. Of these, between 3,200 and 4,300 were noncombatants -- that is: civilians who did not take up arms.

On 12 November 2003 the British Medact [an affiliate of the nonprofit International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War] estimated total Iraqi casualties from the war could range from 21,700 to 55,000. This study placed Iraqi military casualties at somewhere between 13,500 and 45,000. As of the same date, the IraqBodyCount.net estimated total Iraqi deaths as a range of between 7,840 and 9,668, derived from thousands of media reports from Iraq.

On 10 February 2004 the head of Iraq's police force, Lieutenant General Ahmed Kazem Ibrahim said a total of 604 policemen had been killed in attacks or during operations since a new police force was established by the US-led coalition the fall of president Saddam Hussein. In late January 2004, interim interior minister Nuri Basra gave a death toll of some 300 for the force.

And while I am at it, the coalition deployments.

[Acecombat 0]

I wonder what the pro-war peeps have to say to this?

What is americas plan now to quench this uprising? Or are they all set to run with tail in between their legs? I hope theirs a plan B somewhere ....

[denoir 0]

Arrest order for Iraq Shia cleric

Quote[/b] ]

The US-led coalition in Iraq says an arrest warrant has been issued for radical cleric Moqtada Sadr.

A coalition spokesman told a news conference in Baghdad that the warrant had been issued in connection with the murder of a rival cleric last year.

The statement came on the second day of violent anti-coalition protests across Iraq by Mr Sadr's supporters.

....

Are they insane? The only thing this will do is to force the more moderate clerics to join up with his cause. This is just moronic. The current problems started after the occupational forces closed down a pro-Sadr newspaper and arrested one of his assistants. How do they think people will react if they arrest Sadr himself? It's just insane. The man has a huge number of followers. He was the only strong Shia leader that emerged directly after the war, organizing security and distributing food in Baghdad. They renamed Saddam city (largest Baghdad suburb) to Sadr City in his honor. Bremer must be losing his mind.

[Acecombat 0]

Sadr city ?

I wonder what the kurds have to say about this development they seem to be keeping a low profile here , even though they are suppose to be better armed then all factions in Iraq i guess due to previous run ins with saddam.

[denoir 0]

Sadr city ?  

.

Yepp, the northern part of Baghdad. It's the huge rectangular grid northeast of the big road:

Quote[/b] ]I wonder what the kurds have to say about this development they seem to be keeping a low profile here , even though they are suppose to be better armed then all factions in Iraq i guess due to previous run ins with saddam

That's the next big thing that is likely to go wrong. They are quiet for now, but the question is how long they will remain quiet. On the other hand, if the Shias now revolt then it is irrelevant. It all stands or falls on this.