The Iraq thread 3

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Okay, I see there is a need for Albert Schweizer down there in Iraq. If they cant fix the problem themselves they need the help of hyper-wise Albert. I got the ticket, I got good boots, gloves (it gets cold there during the evening doesnt it), I got a few sandwiches, a fresh bottle of water and a pepper spray for self defense. Make some space I am coming!

[MLF 0]

That`s one side of the picture.On the other side news agencies are reporting the attack occurred when worshipers had gathered for afternoon prayers.It`s also becoming painfully clear that most of the casualties were civillians as in other coalition attacks in Fallujah.

This brings me to my question.Was there such an imminent danger coming from the mosque that required the powerfull attack on a holy shrine that caused so many civillians casualties?

Also you have to realise that in Fallujah it`s practically impossible to stay in places where there are no insurgents as the whole city is rebel.So it`s US job to avoid civillian losses.

so your being shot at from the mosque, you return fire, the insurgent just retreats back into the building, the Marine on the ground will make the call to bring in support, his primary concern is of his men, if his men are fired upon, he will do whatever it takes to stop that threat, If there are 5 or 6 guys with AK's in a mosque then the best bet is to get some hevier support in, such as sectre or Helicopter to blow the shit out of it, now its not the coalitions fault if these men use civilians as cover. Also again if ur in a mosque where armed militia are firing upon US marines and you stay in that mosque then its your own fault if then an apache fires a helfire into the building and you die.

[ran 0]

That`s one side of the picture.On the other side news agencies are reporting the attack occurred when worshipers had gathered for afternoon prayers.It`s also becoming painfully clear that most of the casualties were civillians as in other coalition attacks in Fallujah.

This brings me to my question.Was there such an imminent danger coming from the mosque that required the powerfull attack on a holy shrine that caused so many civillians casualties?

Also you have to realise that in Fallujah it`s practically impossible to stay in places where there are no insurgents as the whole city is rebel.So it`s US job to avoid civillian losses.

so your being shot at from the mosque, you return fire, the insurgent just retreats back into the building, the Marine on the ground will make the call to bring in support, his primary concern is of his men, if his men are fired upon, he will do whatever it takes to stop that threat, If there are 5 or 6 guys with AK's in a mosque then the best bet is to get some hevier support in, such as sectre or Helicopter to blow the shit out of it, now its not the coalitions fault if these men use civilians as cover. Also again if ur in a mosque where armed militia are firing upon US marines and you stay in that mosque then its your own fault if then an apache fires a helfire into the building and you die.

A fucking marine squad intimidated by 5 gunmen ? PUSSIES !!

Sure, the leader's main concern is his men, but you DO NOT IN ANY CASE ATTACK A CULT CENTER IN WHICH THERE ARE CIVILIANS !

AND YOU EVEN LESS LEVEL IT WITH ARTILLERY OR AIR SUPPORT OF ANY KIND !

This can only create even more anger within the local population

What are the US army officers and warrants taught for fucks sake ?

You do not do "whatever it takes" to stop a threat, you act depending on the threat level, 5 or 6 gunmen DO NOT IN ANY CASE REPRESENT A GOOD ENOUGH MOTIVE TO LEVEL A CIVILIAN BUILDING AND EVEN LESS A RELIGIOUS ONE !!

Don't be astonished if roadside bombs flourish like cherry trees at spring then? you get what you deserve on a battlefield.

Religious buildings have generally been considered as sanctuaries in tacit military laws since the dawn of times, keeping them as such can only make you look or sound good, it's somewhat apart of an honour code.

If ever armed hostiles break into a religious building to take cover in it, you just close the surroundings and wait for the to do whatever they feel like doing.

Doing such a nasty action can only create more anger within the locals' minds.

But the whole lot of military operations on Iraqi soil is a big fat flaw on its own.

Once again, this only shows how heavily handed the US Army is.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

That`s one side of the picture.On the other side news agencies are reporting the attack occurred when worshipers had gathered for afternoon prayers.It`s also becoming painfully clear that most of the casualties were civillians as in other coalition attacks in Fallujah.

This brings me to my question.Was there such an imminent danger coming from the mosque that required the powerfull attack on a holy shrine that caused so many civillians casualties?

Also you have to realise that in Fallujah it`s practically impossible to stay in places where there are no insurgents as the whole city is rebel.So it`s US job to avoid civillian losses.

so your being shot at from the mosque, you return fire, the insurgent just retreats back into the building, the Marine on the ground will make the call to bring in support, his primary concern is of his men, if his men are fired upon, he will do whatever it takes to stop that threat, If there are 5 or 6 guys with AK's in a mosque then the best bet is to get some hevier support in, such as sectre or Helicopter to blow the shit out of it, now its not the coalitions fault if these men use civilians as cover. Also again if ur in a mosque where armed militia are firing upon US marines and you stay in that mosque then its your own fault if then an apache fires a helfire into the building and you die.

yeah.. so true. next time there is bank robbery, just blow the goddamn building up with 1.2 tons of TNT. The victims can blame themselves, they were at the wrong place at the wrong time!  

The funny thing is that if the seperatists would have blown up an entire block to kill a few US soldiers and risk to kill a hundred civillians everyone would shout. What a sick terorist attack!

[MLF 0]

Hey i never said what they did is right, but if your being shot at are you seriously going to ask them to not call in heavy support to kill the insurgents becuase there is a chance there MIGHT be civilians in the building, do you expect them to just stay there taking fire. Whatever Bush said, with recen events erupting the war is still continuing.

[ran 0]

Hey i never said what they did is right, but if your being shot at are you seriously going to ask them to not call in heavy support to kill the insurgents becuase there is a chance there MIGHT be civilians in the building, do you expect them to just stay there taking fire. Whatever Bush said, with recen events erupting the war is still continuing.

I have already been shot at on NUMEROUS occasions and this didn't require a fucking gunship to get my buddies, men and me out of the shit.

[MLF 0]

okay, they decided on that action, but we dont know exactly what the situation was, im not sure if it was 5 men but i was just using that as an example.

[ran 0]

okay, they decided on that action, but we dont know exactly what the situation was, im not sure if it was 5 men but i was just using that as an example.

5 or 50, i don't give a toss, what are RoE's for they're to be used by military cooks ?

There are other ways than air support, the US Army should get that through some of its men's thick skull

[Balschoiw 0]

Excuse me but if I´m fired upon with AK´s I don´t need the air cavalry to help me out. The marines were neither trapped nor in a state of imminent danger. They were the ones who attacked. They cut off Falluja from electricity, water and food supplies. They laid siege on Falluja, not vice versa.

Now if I´m being shot at with AK´s I SHOOT BACK WITH MY GUN. Damnit, I thought you had scopes ?!?

I can´t see any armored units or a significant threat in the mosque.

To fire Hellfires into a mosque with worshippers is so overkill that it leaves me breathless.

Your Marine´s should have found a better way to deal with that than blowing up to goddamn thing.

What are they ?

Whiners or soldiers ?

Don´t you think that you have little place to hide when a city is encircled and houses are blown up ? Don´t you think that people automatically gather for shelter in churches, mosques anywhere on the world if their town is under attack ?

What you basically say is "throw a nuke, problem solved, no survivors".

I am soldier and I know there are more ways than killing lots of innocent when you go for 10 - 20 gunmen. And that´s what they are. They are no special forces but civillians with weapons. If you can´t fight them you should better hurry home for mama.

[MLF 0]

We don't know what there situation was, and tbh non have you i doubt have been in a War situation like they face, so yea they may being heavy handed, but if killing insurgents with a helfire stops one US Marine dying then yea i support there action, yea Civilian casualties are not good, but its urban warfare, I think that you don't Give Marine commanders any credit when it comes to decision making, from what i have seen and what my friends have said from being over there and ACTUALLY being there then if they needed air support then i think they actually needed it.

Remember this is all out war what the marines are facing, this aint Peacekeeping.

[ran 0]

We don't know what there situation was, and tbh non have you i doubt have been in a War situation like they face, so yea they may being heavy handed, but if killing insurgents with a helfire stops one US Marine dying then yea i support there action, yea Civilian casualties are not good, but its urban warfare, I think that you don't Give Marine commanders any credit when it comes to decision making, from what i have seen and what my friends have said from being over there and ACTUALLY being there then if they needed air support then i think they actually needed it.

Remember this is all out war what the marines are facing, this aint Peacekeeping.

So the life of a man who purposely signed up a contract knowing that it meant that he was paid to risk his life is more important than the life of several innoncent who haven't asked anything to anybody ?

Did you see the UN troops levelling the whole fucking Sniper Alley in Sarajevo or wasting hills after hills of the bosnian landscape because of enemy mortar teams ?

Did you see the french army levelling civilian buildings in Africa because militia members were inside ?

They should have been facing peacekeeping, but the american leadership is just retarded, and i'm keeping it polite.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sorry I could only find the following post in german, but I might bother translating it later. Seen that one Bals?

Quote[/b] ]Berlin - Der folgende Dialog soll das Protokoll eines mit einem Instant Messenger geführten Gesprächs zwischen zwei Brüdern aus Ramadi sein. Das beteuert zumindest der anonyme Mann, der das Dokument heute ins Forum der islamistischen Internetseite qoqaz.com stellte. SPIEGEL ONLINE hat den Text übersetzt. Der eine Bruder, der sich in dem Gespräch "al-Anbari" nennt, will bei den Kämpfen gegen die US-Truppen dabei gewesen sein. Sein Bruder und ein dritter Gesprächsteilnehmer, "al-Ramadi" und "Kamal", halten sich offenbar im Ausland auf. Der Dialog ist nicht überprüfbar, die sehr genauen Angaben über die Örtlichkeiten sind indes ein Indiz für dessen Authentizität.

Al-Anbari: Gott ist groß!

Al-Ramadi: Frieden!

Al-Anbari: Friede sei mit Dir!

Al-Ramadi: Und auch mit Dir sei Friede und die Gnade Gottes!

Al-Ramadi: Seid ihr noch am Leben? (...) Ãœberbringt uns Nachrichten!

Al-Anbari: Wir haben die Amerikaner zermalmt, und die Schlachten finden auf allen Straßen statt.

Al-Ramadi: Bei Gott!

Al-Anbari: Bei Gott! Und wir haben uns ihrer Waffen und Gerätschaften bemächtigt.

Al-Ramadi: Wurden denn auch welche von ihnen getötet?

Al-Anbari: Ja. Die gesamte Truppe, die in die Straße Nr. 20 eindrang, wurde vollständig vernichtet und einer der Wagen, der in der Nähe von Mariams Haus stand, wurde abgebrannt.

Al-Ramadi: Welcher Mariam?

Al-Anbari: Du kennst doch Mahmud al-Mariam, der in der Nähe von dem Haus von Ibrahim al-Khaschiban wohnt? Das Haus dahinter.

Al-Ramadi: Ach so. Und sind sie in Häuser eingefallen oder haben jemanden festgenommen?

Al-Anbari: Nein, bis jetzt ist es ihnen noch nicht gelungen, in die Gegend hier einzudringen. Vielleicht kommen sie aber in der Nacht. Zurzeit sammeln sie sich in der Straße, in der der Spielplatz ist, in der Nähe des Hauses von Safi al-Battah.

Al-Ramadi: Was für Waffen werden auf der Seite der Widerstandskämpfer benutzt?

Al-Anbari: Leichte Waffen und Granaten.

Al-Ramadi: Ich habe gehört, dass ihr Aufenthaltsort in Ramadi gestern heftig mit Mörsern beschossen wurde...

Al-Anbari: Ja, und ihre Nacht war schwarz. (...) Die gesamte Gegend hat sich nämlich ohne Ausnahme erhoben! Eine bemerkenswerte Sache ist auch, dass die meisten der Mudschahidin von der Polizei und der neuen Armee stammen.

Al-Ramadi: Gott ist groß! (...)

Al-Anbari: Wahrlich, wenn du ihre Waffen siehst, fühlst du, dass die Engel auf unsere Seite kämpfen!

Al-Ramadi: Es gibt keinen Sieg außer bei Gott!

Al-Anbari: Sie riefen mich bei der Schule an und sagten mir, ich solle nicht kommen, denn die Lage erlaube es nicht. Sie aber töteten 6 Amerikaner. Ich spürte, dass mich etwas dorthin zog, und ich fand dann den Kampfplatz auch in der Nähe unseres Hauses. Und die Helden rannten hinter den Amerikanern her (...). Als ich ihnen wieder begegnete, da fand ich sie, wie sie deren von Blut verschmierte Waffen und Gerätschaften trugen, und sie schrieen "Gott ist groß!".

Al-Ramadi: Bei Gott, die Araber und die Muslime hier sind wirklich sehr eifrig darauf bedacht, mehr solcher Nachrichten zu erfahren, die die Brust kühlen. Ich werde diesen Dialog kopieren und an sie alle verteilen!

Al-Anbari: Gott ist groß!

Al-Ramadi: Und was nun? (...)

Al-Anbari: Wir sind im Moment in größter Bereitschaft. (...) Ich gebe dir die Details, wenn ich am Leben bleibe.

Kamal: Ich erbitte von Gott für Euch das Wohlbefinden und den Sieg.

Al-Anbari: Die amerikanische Armee, die die Welt hat erzittern lassen, hat sich als Horde Schafe herausgestellt (...).

Kamal: Wie geht es Mohammed und den anderen Mudschahidin?

Al-Anbari: Es geht ihnen gut. Gott sei Dank hatten wir keine Verluste außer zwei Verletzten, und deren Wunden waren nur leicht.

Kamal: Wer sind diese beiden?

Al-Anbari: Ehrlich, ich kenne sie nicht, denn die ganzen Leute aus der Umgebung haben sich in Bewegung gesetzt, Männer und Frauen. Ich hätte nicht gedacht, dass die Leute dieser Gegend so viel Heldenmut haben. Die Mütter drängen sogar die Kinder in den Kampf.

Kamal: Was immer Gott will! Gesegnet sei der Allmächtige!

Al-Anbari: Stell dir vor: Mir begegnete ein Junge, er war wohl nicht einmal 15 Jahre alt, und er trug eine Waffe, aber ohne Munition (...). Als ich ihn in diesem heldenhaften Ungestüm sah, da riss ich mein Magazin los und gab es ihm.

Kamal: O Gott!!! Gott ist groß!!!

Al-Anbari: Ich sah auch einen jungen Kerl, der heldenhaft den Amerikanern standhielt und nach ihnen warf, und sie konnten darauf einfach nicht reagieren, obwohl sie viele waren.

Kamal: Solche Nachrichten beruhigen und stärken den Stolz. (...) Ich möchte dich um einen Gefallen bitten.

Al-Anbari: Gerne.

Kamal: Ich möchte von dieser Geschichte so viele Kopien drucken, wie ich nur kann und sie an alle Mudschahidin verteilen, die sie haben möchten, als kleinen Beitrag meinerseits, um ihre Moral zu stärken.

Al-Anbari: So Gott will!

Kamal: Grüße mir alle und überbringe ihnen meine Bittgebete für Schutz und Sieg (...). Friede sei über Dich, und Gottes Segen!

Al-Anbari: Und auch auf Dir sei Friede und Gottes Segen.

"Dieses mit einem Messenger geführte Gespräch aus Ramadi erschien heute, am Mittwochmittag. Und Gott sei mein Zeuge, ich kenne den Bruder, der dort am Golf sich befindet, denn er ist mein Arbeitskollege. Der, mit dem er spricht, ist sein Bruder aus Ramadi. In diesem Gespräch sind Nachrichten der Mudschahidin vom Schlachtfeld enthalten."

[SpongeBob 0]

Masacre at Mosque

Quote[/b] ]Meanwhile, all the city mosques were calling for a "jihad" (holy war) against US-led occupation forces amid intense bombardments and aircraft overflights.

The clerics call for a holy war from their "holy sites", so why are you surprised if the US occupation forces added some holes to their "holy sites"?

[bn880 5]

But you would be surprized if someone put holes in the Pentagon and Whitehouse eh? And that's not even religious. For the matter imagine the opposite, Iraqi forces occupying US, and pounding Christian Churches and Jewish Synagogues because htey say the invading Iraqis are evil etc.

[SpongeBob 0]

Sadr calls for power handover to honest men

Quote[/b] ]

Radical Shiite cleric says honest men should take power in Iraq, calls on Kuwait oust US bases.

NAJAF, Iraq - Radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr, who is presiding over a violent insurgency in Iraq, Wednesday called for power to be handed over to "honest men" and not to collaborators of the US-led occupation.

The cleric, in a statement issued in this holy city, urged "American people to take sides with the Iraqi people, oppressed by US leaders and the occupation army, to help them so that power is transferred to honest Iraqis."

The US-led coalition is scheduled to hand over power to an interim Iraqi government on June 30.

Sadr dismissed suggestions that bloody clashes, which have pitted the occupation troops against thousands of his private militiamen since Sunday, could derail the path to sovereignty.

"Those who are to take power are those who collaborate with the coalition ... They are not Iraqis," the statement said.

Sadr also called on neighbouring Kuwait to end the US military presence at bases within the emirate.

"I call on our neighbour Kuwait to request that American bases leave its territory and that it stands by our side to get rid of the great Satan in Iraq," he said.

Sadr called on Kuwaitis to put pressure on its government to kick out "these terrorist bases".

"The one (former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein) who you fear is no longer there," the statement added.

[Veovis 0]

CNN is reporting that bombs were targeted on an outer wall, not the mosque itself, and that is where they hit. It also implies that all the casualties were armed insurgents. Now, if this was Fox News, I would laugh (they are so conservatively biased that it should be called Fox Republican Opinion) but CNN IMO tends to be unbiased. It seems that there are conflicting reports, and I wouldn't take it to heart that the army lofted bombs into a worship center filled with non-combatants (although that may be the case)

Also, to BN880, 'how would you like it' arguments are usually irrelevent. We aren't 'pounding churches,' we hit one mosque, and it sounds like we didn't even actually hit it.

[bn880 5]

Also, to BN880, 'how would you like it' arguments are usually irrelevent. We aren't 'pounding churches,' we hit one mosque, and it sounds like we didn't even actually hit it.

No, wrong, this is relevant, what I replied to. Usually "how would you like it" are the most relevant choices for reasoning things out.

EDIT: 99% of people defending wars don't really try to consider the "how would you like it" or other side of the fence problems. Like having one of yours ripped to pieces when a SABOT hits a wall, on purpose or not. Otherwise some people are frankly incapable of understanding what this all means to people on the other end due to a lack of exerience and sometimes intelligence.

[turms 0]

Rumsfeld was just had a pressconference on BBC commenting about recent events. What cought my attention was that he said that there is only 1000-6000 Iraqis rebelling, what a bunch of crap i say. 7 BIG cities rebelling and he is talking about 1000-6000 fighters? of please, I wonder if he knows what he is talking about.. 1 lie more from the Bush regime.

[bn880 5]

One thing you have to remember is the troop numbers are not evaluated in the media, as in, there are not 180K coalition fighting infantry troops in Iraq. The percentage of soldiers who actually are front line assault/patrol is probably 40%. (I don't know the % for sure) Rest is support/intel/comms etc.

6000 insurgents fighting in groups of 40 can be exactly what we see right now.

[MLF 0]

But you would be surprized if someone put holes in the Pentagon and Whitehouse eh?  And that's not even religious.  For the matter imagine the opposite, Iraqi forces occupying US, and pounding Christian Churches and Jewish Synagogues because htey say the invading Iraqis are evil etc.

if insergents are in those places of worship, then pound ahead, show that no place is safe for those who wan't to disrupt the handover.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

It is the old story of: "Saddam was an evil man, us the iraqis, didnt like him either, but an occupation, thats a different story"

[MLF 0]

Its only an ocupation because of the constant clashes between troops and insurgents, i do agree though the US aint got the hand of the Velvet Glove approach that the British have down to a tee, as you can see from there record in Basra

[walker 0]

Hi MLF

Quote[/b] ]if insergents are in those places of worship, then pound ahead, show that no place is safe for those who wan't to disrupt the handover.

What you have just said leads me to ask: How long have you supported Al Qaida? Why do you support Al Qaida?

You are aware are you not that what you said is exactly Al Qaida's aims.

Kind Regards Walker

[Donnervogel 0]

Sorry I could only find the following post in german, but I might bother translating it

later. Seen that one Bals?

[...]

hmm one thing I ask myself is how he can have internet access while he is telling that the whole city was black at night (as I understand it this implies the americans have cut off electricity for retailiation reasons or it was destroyed during the fighting)

[MLF 0]

lol, i see how that can be taken, but the contect of what mine was typed in was that, my insergents are combatents, the ones Al Qaida's are after is basically democracy, there aim is to spread islamic fundamentalism and from what i can gather wipe out all that has been achieved in the western world and revert to what seems like medievel ways. The people who are fightin in that Mosque are exactly the same they don't want democracy, they wanna kill westerners ie Americans, you cannot compare the actions of those Marines to those of terrorists, Al Qaida don't discriminate, We try not to but in a War, civilians will die (especially in an Urban environment) i doubt the Marines where like

"Hey lets guide in some Missiles, i hope i can kill as many civilians as possible", i know this forum is full of anti war lefties, but plz don't make out US marines as Bloodythirsty baby killers.