The Iraq thread 3

[denoir 0]

Villepin, lol yeah that man must hunt Bushs dreams by now! Good read Denoir. Tomorrow I will waste an hour reading the link on the new WORLD ORDER you gave me. I think I can extract some info from that concerning TBAs world picture!

If you have some time, read this long article called Power and Weakness by Robert Kagan, a leading neoconservative. It was published well before the war (June 2002) and presents a nice little model for the 'new world order'. It is about Europe and America and the growing gap in policy.

What is interesting is to compare it with today's reality. The model Kagan describes is simple and appealing but has some problems with the real world which is never quite as simple as a model. Iraq shows that indeed not every problem can be solved with sheer force or that America's military capabilities aren't infinite or even suitable for solving some problems. In the end it's Bush now trying to get international support in terms of peace keepers, while Europe is giving him the finger. I don't think many people deny that the calls for UN (European) military involvement in Iraq are just pro forma.

Anyway, read the article. Even though I think the guy is wrong on several points, it's still an interesting read.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

they would stay as sitting ducks in their uniforms waiting to be wiped out?

Actually that is what they did during the entry phase of the war.

[Balschoiw 0]

So who said it were not thousands of images ?

billybob ?

Quote[/b] ]More than 1,800 images, including video clips, were screened by members of the House and Senate in separate classified briefings under Pentagon supervision. The lawmakers disagreed over whether or not the images should be made public, but reaction to the content was vehement.

Eat this.

Abu Ghraib photos cause gasps in Congress

Quote[/b] ]Chambliss said senators in the room where he saw the images gasped at some images. He said the pictures depicted American soldiers "forcing Iraqis to commit sexual acts, and seeming to enjoy what they were doing."

...

Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., said the photos showed a number of soldiers, as many as seven or eight in one photo, observing some of the scenes. He said that is evidence that knowledge of the abuse went beyond the few soldiers who have been accused to committing it.

"The question is how far up the chain of command did this order go," he said.

Opinions over whether the images should be released to the public didn't follow partisan lines.

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John Warner, R-Va., said that the photos should be held back to "protect the integrity of the legal process" that is now underway in military courts against the alleged abusers.

Other Republicans disagreed.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a former military prosecutor, said he didn't think that release of the photos will interfere with the courts-martial of the soldiers involved.

In the wake of this week's beheading of American hostage Nick Berg by Iraqi captors, Warner said he's worried the release of the images may have the result of "inspiring the enemy to inflict further damage."

Berg's killers were members of al-Qaeda who said his death was revenge for the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. However, al-Qaeda believes it is a religious duty to kill all non-Muslims in Islamic counties regardless of what they have done.

Graham said he's concerned about the possibility of revenge killings.

"There's a strong anti-American feeling in Iraq right now," he said. "We need to get these out and get this behind us."

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Actually that is what they did during the entry phase of the war.

And it would seem they are smart enough to learn and adapt.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Actually that is what they did during the entry phase of the war.

And it would seem they are smart enough to learn and adapt.

Well yes, once again the US military has to learn that "poverty" sais nothing about the intelligence of a nation. I wouldnt call the iraqis sophisticated, but they are smart enough to chose the right battlefield!

[theavonlady 2]

Rumsfeld Makes Surprise Visit to Iraq

Quote[/b] ]15 minutes ago

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, making a surprise visit to Iraq (news - web sites) aimed at containing the prisoner abuse scandal, said Thursday administration lawyers are advising the Pentagon (news - web sites) not to publicly release any more photographs of Iraqi prisoners being abused by U.S. soldiers.

"As far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy to release them all to the public and to get it behind us," Rumsfeld told reporters traveling with him from Washington. "But at the present time I don't know anyone in the legal shop in any element of the government that is recommending that."

The government lawyers argue that releasing such materials would violate a Geneva Convention stricture against presenting images of prisoners that could be construed as degrading, Rumsfeld said en route to the Iraqi capital on a trip that was not announced in advance due to security concerns.

Rumsfeld was accompanied by Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and several lawyers on a trip designed to reassure U.S. troops that the prisoner abuse scandal has not weakened public support for their mission and to get firsthand reports from the most senior commanders.

The Pentagon officials arranged meetings with the top U.S. commander in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, and other senior commanders.

Sanchez told reporters accompaning Rumsfeld that it appears Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, an associate of Osama bin Laden believed to be behind a wave of suicide bombings in Iraq, was responsible for killing Nicholas Berg, a young American beheaded by hooded men in an execution shown in a video posted on the Intnet.

"All indications are that is the case," said Sanchez. Asked whether he meant Zarqawi personally carried out the execution, Sanchez said, "All indications are he did it."

Asked about Zarqawi's whereabouts, the general said, "We believe he's moivng around the country."

....................................

[SpongeBob 0]

So who said it were not thousands of images ?

billybob ?

Quote[/b] ]More than 1,800 images, including video clips, were screened by members of the House and Senate in separate classified briefings under Pentagon supervision. The lawmakers disagreed over whether or not the images should be made public, but reaction to the content was vehement.

Eat this.

1800 is only one thousand and change.  You can only claim there are "thousands" after 2000.

Oh yeah, this part:

Quote[/b] ]The photos were seized from service members and included many shots unrelated to the investigation, such as pictures of historic sites. Some photos showed what appeared to be soldiers having sex. Because of the vast number of photos — and members coming and going — not all saw the same slides, and impressions varied.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....cid=716

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Jesus, do they have to take pictures of everything they do?

[Baphomet 0]

I just can't believe that Rush Limbaugh initially espoused the idea behind the pictures. What a moron. Everyone's going to see him for the ignorant fool he is now. After the whole drug abuse scandal. I'm hoping his credibility is now going down in flames.

I've heard ruminations about how this incident will make this "war" all but unwinnable. Well shit. That's giving Bush a bit too much credit. This "war" will be lost regardless. They have to leave sometime. The United States is heading into a bad recession and keeping a fully functional military to occupy a country that clearly doesn't want them there. Is going to cost. Either the American citizens will say enough is enough. Or Bush will give up the ghost and back out. I think the former is much more plausible than the latter. Unfortunately.

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld Makes Surprise Visit to Iraq

Betcha there'll be some jihadis of varying denominations just itching for a clear shot at him...

I dunno if it was a wise decision.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]1800 is only one thousand and change.  You can only claim there are "thousands" after 2000.

change ?

Sorry but it´s more likely that the next days there will be more surfacing pics. 2000 is a number that won´t be hard to reach.

There are more than 1800 pics right now , that congress has seen. That doesn´t mean pentagon doesn´t have more  

Not to speak of "private collectors" who certainly have something to contribute in the next weeks.

Judging by the raw amount of pics it´s needless to say that we don´t have to deal with the acts "of a few" like your downplaying president says but acts of a lot.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]Actually that is what they did during the entry phase of the war.

And it would seem they are smart enough to learn and adapt.

Well yes, once again the US military has to learn that "poverty" sais nothing about the intelligence of a nation. I wouldnt call the iraqis sophisticated, but they are smart enough to chose the right battlefield!

Unfortunatly, the policy makers were stupid enough to enter it.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.abuse.uk/index.html

Quote[/b] ]LONDON, England (CNN) -- Dramatic pictures said to show British troops abusing Iraqi prisoners were not taken in Iraq, the UK government has said.

Armed forces minister Adam Ingram told MPs Thursday an inquiry by military police found the truck seen in the photos published by the Daily Mirror newspaper "was never in Iraq."

The investigation of the photos is continuing and may result in criminal prosecution, he told the House of Commons.

"We had to treat these photos at face value. That value has changed," Ingram said. "These pictures were categorically not taken in Iraq."

[SpongeBob 0]

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=27679

Quote[/b] ]Globe caught with pants down: Paper duped into running porn photos

By Herald staff

Thursday, May 13, 2004

The Boston Globe was reeling yesterday after graphic photos of alleged sexual abuse of Iraqi women by U.S. soldiers turned out to be staged shots from a hardcore porn Web site.

``This photo should not have appeared in the Globe,'' editor Martin Baron said in a statement. ``First, images portrayed in the photo were overly graphic. Second, as the story clearly pointed out, those images were never authenticated as photos of prisoner abuse. There was a lapse in judgment and procedures, and we apologize for it.''

The ``lapse'' came after City Councilor Chuck Turner and perennial pot-stirrer Sadiki Kambon called a press conference in the wake of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal to display more purported abuse photos. Turner claimed they came from ``a very legitimate person'' but admitted they hadn't been authenticated. Kambon said he got them from a representative of the Nation of Islam. Neither Turner nor Kambon returned calls.

But yesterday, WorldNetDaily.com reported the pictures - which show hard-core sex acts and genitalia - came from a pornographic site.

[Balschoiw 0]

Oh there are still 1800 pics and 24 videos to be published. I guess that will satisfy all needs for details.

And those have already been checked by pentagon so I assume they are authentic.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Armed forces minister Adam Ingram told MPs Thursday an inquiry by military police found the truck seen in the photos published by the Daily Mirror newspaper "was never in Iraq."

The investigation of the photos is continuing and may result in criminal prosecution, he told the House of Commons.

"We had to treat these photos at face value. That value has changed," Ingram said. "These pictures were categorically not taken in Iraq."

I heard about the UK government's cynicism about the veracity of those photos. Assuming they weren't in Iraq. Does that really mean the violence depicted therein is staged?

Conspiracy?

[denoir 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.abuse.uk/index.html

Quote[/b] ]LONDON, England (CNN) -- Dramatic pictures said to show British troops abusing Iraqi prisoners were not taken in Iraq, the UK government has said.

Armed forces minister Adam Ingram told MPs Thursday an inquiry by military police found the truck seen in the photos published by the Daily Mirror newspaper "was never in Iraq."

The investigation of the photos is continuing and may result in criminal prosecution, he told the House of Commons.

"We had to treat these photos at face value. That value has changed," Ingram said. "These pictures were categorically not taken in Iraq."

From the mirror:

Quote[/b] ]It has been suggested details in the pictures - such as parts of the soldier's uniform, his rifle, hat and boot lacing - were not authentic. But Soldier D said: "I think the pictures are real. I totally believe them.

"Before last summer it was very common to wear floppy hats. As for how boots are laced, you lace them however you want.

"Those who say the boots and uniforms are too clean don't realise there are launderettes there. We kept everything spotless.

"The fact that the soldier in the pictures didn't have a flash on his uniform isn't unusual either. We have to buy our own, so most people have just a couple of shirts with flashes for when the CO comes round.

"The soldier's pouch being open is also easily explained. He'd have taken the sandbag out of it to put over the prisoner's head.

"I know there's no sling on the man's weapon. But slings often get in the way and it's up to you whether you use them or not."

Critics have said the pictures appear to have been taken in a Bedford truck which never deployed in Iraq.

Soldier D hit back: "It's rubbish to say there are no Bedford trucks in Iraq. I travelled in one from the airport and from the camp back to the airport."

[Pathy 0]

Bear in mind the Mirror is the paper that publicised these pictures and Peirs Morgan is not only facing being fired, he is also facing jail.

Of course he is going to be staunchly defending himself, even when everyone else (most the British public (polls show this), and most of the British media (though they may just be taking the opportunity to piss on rivals, the Mirror)) believes the photos are false.

For realism stuff, ask a few of the ex-British army UKF boys, interesting to hear what those guys think.......

And at the end of the day, the real issue here isnt whether the photos are fake (pretty sure they are), its about whether the allegations depicted in the photos are true.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

It cant be so hard for a journalist to make some photos of these trucks in iraq, can it?

[der bastler 0]

Mankind just doesn't learn from former disasters...

The excuse for torture/abuse: "I was instructed..."

Great. Sounds familiar (hint: Germany some time ago).

[Pathy 0]

It cant be so hard for a journalist to make some photos of these trucks in iraq, can it?

Well in order to show up The Mirror, The Sun produced similar pictures claiming they had mocked that up in 30 minutes.

Besides, there is more to the photo than the details of the webbing and uniform that most people seem to think is the deciding factor. For example, the quality of the photos.....how many soldiers carry around journalistic quality cameras?

AFAIK, someone came to the Mirror with the story, they were told to come back with pictures or not at all.....IMO, that means someone mocked those pictures up to support the story. Whether the story is actually true is the real issue here, but i do not think theres much of a doubt in the UK that these photos are real.

Also i have been hearing of several Arab news organisations creating thier own mock ups (but obviously not saying they are mock ups......) of "incidents".........arent the confirmed-as-real US pictures enough for them

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

yes, there were several fakes publised by iraqi sites. But it didnt take a few minutes for press agencies to diversify their incorrectness!

[bn880 5]

Anyone have Intel on what's really going on in Karbala? All I hear is resports of fighting for like a week now.

[bonko the sane 2]

[rant] its funny how the veracity of these photos is exacerbated, wether they are true or false im sure this sort of thing happens everyday over there and elsewhere, wether your from a "developed" country or from a third world country, if under stress and risking life and limb, theres no way you will stay civil and humane, this sort of phenomena happened in all wars and it will happen again and again tomorrow, why is everyone acting so surprised?

The notion that war is humane is one of the most ridiculous theories ever thought up by mankind [/rant]

[SpongeBob 0]

this sort of phenomena happened in all wars and it will happen again and again tomorrow, why is everyone acting so surprised?

So true.

UN Probes Reports of Sexual Abuse by Congo Staff

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]wether your from a "developed" country or from a third world country, if under stress and risking life and limb, theres no way you will stay civil and humane, this sort of phenomena happened in all wars and it will happen again and again tomorrow, why is everyone acting so surprised?

Why am I surprised? I don't find it hard to believe that soldiers crack or fuck up and lose control in a war scenario!

However, I am VERY surprised of the systematic nature of what's been going on in coalition lead prisons!

When you are so bloody willing to get rid of Iraqs burden Saddam and reinstate democracy - maybe you shouldn't be responsible for such terrible crimes in the first place.