The Iraq thread 3

[turms 0]

Hi all

Before Deep sea wind producing transportable Hydrogen wipes out the oil energy market.

The big question is what will happen to the BIG OIL IN THE CASPIAN region?

That is where the NEXT WAR FOR OIL wil be.

Kind Regards Walker

Well the big issue IMO is transportation of oil FROM these regions, and im referring to oilpipe now...it has allready been an isuue in international relationships.

[Baphomet 0]

More violence in iraq.

I can't help but wonder if the americans are going to bear the brunt of the backlash because of it. It seems very plausible since the nature of these terrorists enables them to remain fairly anonymous and it seems so easy for the population to blame all their problems on the United States as it is.

Quote[/b] ]WHO TO BLAME?

Unsure who to blame, survivors in Baghdad hurled stones at U.S. troops who arrived on the scene.

So very perdictable.

Source.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Unsure who to blame, survivors in Baghdad hurled stones at U.S. troops who arrived on the scene.

Yes Us troops arrived, stones were thrown, US soldier fired warning shots and left the scene. That´s what I call contributing to establish security in Iraq.

US forces duck and cover in Iraq. They wait desperatly to hand over in June.

They caused the mess, they are unbale to fulfill their duties and noone speaks of the promises made before the war.

In fact the war itself caused all that trouble that is going on in Iraq. But the ones who claim to be mightyest superpower on earth just have no intention to keep their promises and steal away.

[Baphomet 0]

I never condoned the war. I still don't. That -was- their fault for going over there. However middle eastern nations have been using the United States as a scapegoat for problems for ages now. Whether they did something or not. They would have been blamed for something anyhow.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Ever thought about why? Cant be the money cause Saudi Arabia is rich as hell.

I guess it is a mixture of disrespect for the western culture and US politics in that region. Unilateral support for Israel.

[toadeater 0]

US forces duck and cover in Iraq. They wait desperatly to hand over in June.

They caused the mess, they are unbale to fulfill their duties and noone speaks of the promises made before the war.

George Bush should be impeached for presenting false intelligence and lying before Congress and the UN. Bush insisted he knew better and that he was doing "God's work." Well, apparently God wasn't the one telling Bush to do it! Unless God is trying to destroy America or something?!

Let's also not forget about Tony Blair. That weasel will no doubt say he was only following his "blood pledge" to support America. Not so fast Tony, you lied too, rather than admit Bush was lying. Blair could have prevented the war from happening simply by asking for proof, he didn't.

Something needs to be done about all these crooks.

[toadeater 0]

However middle eastern nations have been using the United States as a scapegoat for problems for ages now. Whether they did something or not. They would have been blamed for something anyhow.

No, that actually started because of America's support of Israel, and ofcourse that America is a "Christian" nation. It also has a little bit to do with a couple hundred years of French and British imperialism in the region. They look at America as more of the same, and they have good reason to.

Bush shouldn't have played up the religious aspects of all this, now all the stereotypes the Muslims have of America have been confirmed.

[Baphomet 0]

That's kind of a bullshit statement saying that all the stereotypes of americans have been substantiated by one idiot in charge of the country. He's still only one idiot.

I'm not supporting either side since the matter is too complex to simply pick a side.

I'm more or less against retarded bullshit.

Bush essentially lying and invading Iraq under a false pretext is just as much retarded bullshit as thinking a religious extremist can objectively govern any nation. Be they Christian or Muslim.

I feel bad for the average Iraqi who had his/her individual rights and way of life stripped from them during and after the invasion. Still that doesn't mean if it were me and it was obvious there was a terrorist element wreaking havoc for their ends that I'd find the first american and toss a rock at him/her.

That's stupid. Bush knocked a hole into the proverbial boat that is Iraq and now they're the only thing keeping it from sinking. You know the same thing is going to happen all over again. It'll be another Saddam. I'm beginning to think these people can't live without brutal regimes to keep them in line. How are they going to listen to anyone else if they aren't going to adhere to martial law?

It's going to be a Muslim extremist who will either Shiite or Sunni unilaterally serve one faction and persecute the rest.

Which is more retarded bullshit. Having the united states attempt to maintain order after doing something stupid is worse than someone who would have absolutely no pretense of being an objective advocate of all citizens in the country?

It's no secret the United States has always had an impeccable track record in delegating civil responsibility or support to unsuitable individuals. I mean. Delegating power to the deposed warlords in post-taliban Afghanistan.

Supporting Osama Bin Laden in fighting the soviets for the benefit of his people. Another crazy move.

Still. I find those who can contort reality with their own prejudices to the point where they're blaming other people for something because it's convenient is the most retarded bullshit of all.

[miles teg 1]

Actually it's not quite so retarded all this stuff that has happened.

Really very few people in the United States or Europe for that matter, have a solid understanding of the incredibly complex political/cultural/economic/religious issues of Iraq let alone the entire Middle East. The democrats don't a whole lot better understanding of the Middle East either.

But it's the same exact problem that we got into in Vietnam. We just didn't look at the history of Vietnam and the political and economic reality of average Vietnamese, nor their culture.

The most successful US units that "got it" were Special Forces units. However generally their ideas were overruled by the old "tanker" generals that didn't understand what was going on from a Vietnamese perspective.

You are right in that Iraq is in many ways better off with a dictator. Not all countries in the world are ready for an American style democracy. Democracy is inherently weak.

If you try to develop democracy in a country with violent ethnic/religious tensions and with tons of weapons and militant groups, those groups are going to vote with their Kalishnikovs and suicide bombers because they don't believe in practicing anything that even smells American (aka-the Zionist slaves of the Uber-Zionist power of Israel). That's just how many militants there see America. The only way to suppress such militant organizations is generally with a powerful central government with a strong army and even stronger secret police. In other words, a dictator like Saddam. Now he doesn't have to be quite as brutal as Saddam, but you really need stability before you can have democracy. Otherwise it is doomed to collapse short of some miracle because there are simply too many different militant groups with many different agendas and who want to use violence to push all of their agendas which may include attacking the U.N. and any democratic government that tries to form in Iraq.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Baphomet- It may be stupid for the Shi'ites to toss rocks at the American troops but its worth remembering that theyde just seen well over a hundred people (men women and children) get blown into little pieces right in front of their very eyes in one of their religions most holy sites earlier that day. Forget the incredibly complex political/cultural/economic/religious issues. ID probably throw rocks at foreign troops if i saw them snooping about after that had just happened.

Its also worth mentioning that the mood of the crowd in the area has been much calmer today (little or no rock throwing) they have readmitted foreign journalists and their religious leaders have warned against internecine violence (attacks against Sunnis etc). Who knows...

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Its probably true that a harsh but fair dictatorship would be the best thing in terms of stability for Iraqs short term future, or it would have been. But now, after Bush has promised so much in the way of democracy and freedom, anything less or even a move in the direction of dictatorship or non representative government will i am certain result in very widespead Iraqi dissatifaction and an increase in anti coalition violence.

Its really a pretty bad situation right now. There is still scope for it to get better but i wonder for how long. Another thing to remember though is that even in stable countries, democracies and states with strong militaries these kind of attacks have still gone on. Its very hard to fight. (witness sept.11/01 , the recent attacks in Turkey and elsewhere)

Interestingly "al-Quds al-Arabi" newspaper (based in London)

reports recieving a letter signed by the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades (linked to Al-qaeda) denying involvement in the attacks.

[Baphomet 0]

I understand that something like that is traumatic, I also understand as Miles pointedly illustrated, that the majority of people such as myself do not have a solid grasp of the entire issue. I don't. I'll admit that. These are opinions based on what I understand of it.

It still however annoys me that it seems these people really don't know what they need or want. One minute cursing the name of American soldiers for being involved in their country and then cursing them for not being involved enough (security wise), which was an issue. Now had this bombing not happened I would lay money down that these people would grow tiresome of the American's being so overbearing insofar as security issues and cause civil unrest themselves.

You just can't please these people. When I say people I mean the group of... confused Iraqis who refuse to pick a side and stick to it. Either you want them in or out. Life isn't perfect. It just seems to me that the American soldiers are too easily used as a crutch to blame all their problems on. Instead of being proactive about the situation and being a bit more sensible. I equate it to a bunch of preschoolers squabbling on the playground all fighting amongst one another, yet unilaterally dispising the teacher for being too strict and authoritative. That might be an unfair analogy, but that's how I see it.

Still. Yes. It's a horrific tragedy and an especially cowardly act to blow up people on a day that is obviously going to draw out crowds planning to express their religious beliefs. Or any mass assembly such as the ones in Iraq.

Still. That adds only to the complexity of the issue. On one hand I'm sick of the capriciousness of such people. On the other hand I do feel badly for the hapless "individuals" caught up in this turmoil.

I certainly don't think they necessarily deserve another Saddam, however I honestly think these people aren't ready for the kind of freedom we express. Sorry but that's my opinion. They're too hot-headed and religion seems to be too firmly entrenched into their way of life (of which they seem all to eager to fight about). To facilitate any kind of equable coexistance within themselves or with any ruling government.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]It still however annoys me that it seems these people really don't know what they need or want. One minute cursing the name of American soldiers for being involved in their country and then cursing them for not being involved enough (security wise), which was an issue.

The reason for this is simple. America went in and destroyed the existing government and lawenforcement. Naturally, this was not appretiated by the people living there. However, by doing this, the US also comitted itself to the protection of civilians until a new government and efficient lawenforcement is in place. And right now, they are apparently failing their task.

So it is not at all strange that citizens both dislike American soldiers and want them to protect them. They have no one else to do so.

[miles teg 1]

Well put Longinius. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.

Chris G.

[Baphomet 0]

I'm aware of this, I guess I don't really care. It happened. Yes. The whole business right up the the invasion. Intentions were supposedly "good" although I see all of Bush's intentions to be rather spurious now as of this whole thing, especially since this whole campaign of theirs was destined to turn into an unmitigated fiasco.

Make the best of it. I dunno. I just think if I was an Iraqi I don't think I'd be accomplishing much by going out and burning a car or tossing a rock at a soldier. If anything I'd probably just want to leave. It's easy to say that because I'm not in that position however. I suppose I just really hope for the good of them all they can just get their shit together and form at least something of a self governing body without either lashing out at their "protectors" or squabbling amongst one another because of theological differences. There have to be some prominent iraqi figures or at least some of influence who can have the sense to see there's a bigger picture, and encourage others to look at things in a more constructive way.

I'm just sick of unrepentant america-hating. Just as much as I'm tired of hearing patriotic goobers in the states actually brainwashed into thinking every middle-eastern person is a terrorist and that their soldiers are doing a good thing over there despite the fact that Bush lied to those very same people in the first place.

I have a feeling nothing good is going to come of this, either in the short or long term. Bush shot his own country in the foot.

[walker 0]

Hi Baphomet

I agree that America hating is a most stupid reaction.

I understand why they do it same as you.

I for one would never blame US or other coalition soldiers for the political failure of TBA and TBA2.

The blame for this fiasco is clearly on TBA and TBA2 it is unfortunate that the US and UK tax payer must foot the bill for this fiasco that coalition soldiers must bear the iraqi peoples anger and the inocent Iraqis must bear the consequences of their nation's social and economic structure being destroyed. All while members of the administrations and their cronies make fat profits off other peoples misery.

I have said for some time now that TBA and TBA2 should have their personal fortunes so reduced as to force them to be living in a council/housing project before the US and UK Tax payers have to pay for their (lies or gross stupidity), it does not matter which, both must surely have that as the result.

I would also like an investigation into which people made profit out of this war and if they had links with TBA and TBA2 then they should have those profits confiscated.

When all is said and done I hope people understand that blame for this fiasco lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of The George Bush Admiinistration and The Tony Blair Administration and it is there where heads should roll. It was not the fault of the people of the US or the UK as Sadam's crimes are not the fault of the Iraqi people.

TBA and TBA2 must go.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/04/sprj.nirq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ](CNN) -- The commander of U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq is predicting more violence as the United States prepares to hand over the country to Iraqis but said he thinks civil war is unlikely.

Despite attacks such as this week's deadly bombings on Shiite Muslims, a civil war can be avoided, Gen. John Abizaid told the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday.

"I believe that as we move toward the period of sovereignty envisioned in the turnover to the transitional government and then move toward elections which will inevitably happen later, that violence could well increase, and it will be the mark of our success in our willingness to stay the course," Abizaid said.

[Acecombat 0]

I'm aware of this, I guess I don't really care.

THIS SUMS up the whole argument very well , NO one cares aslong as the shit isnt flung their way and its this thing that causes that so called 'hatred' towards the US in the ME in general.

Everyone says 'oh i am so sad it happened oh i feel bad' but then again words dont matter much , if people really feel as bad as they say so then why isnt Bush out of the office YET?

SImple majority of the americans support him and we all know what his character is like and sinc he was elected via a democracy it also displays the nations character to some extent.

[Frisbee 0]

all they can just get their shit together and form at least something of a self governing body without either lashing out at their "protectors" or squabbling amongst one another because of theological differences.

But, will they be allowed to actually do anything? You'd probably need permissions and wade through a sea of bureaucratic barriers before you can take even the slightest action over there.

Simple majority of the americans support him and we all know what his character is like and sinc he was elected via a democracy it also displays the nations character to some extent

But he wasn't elected democratically...  

It's probably right to say that there's not a lot of empathy going on here, and the election of Bush does represent the nation a bit. The US has a strange way to choose its president, a very strange way, that coupled with the fact most don't look behind the labels of 'democrat' and 'republican' (at least i think they don't) gives very strange presidents imho.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Everyone says 'oh i am so sad it happened oh i feel bad' but then again words dont matter much , if people really feel as bad as they say so then why isnt Bush out of the office YET?

SImple majority of the americans support him and we all know what his character is like and sinc he was elected via a democracy it also displays the nations character to some extent.

true, just like the Royals of Sauds need to be kicked out of their throne. their incompetency and fascist police state is nothing but a mockery of human values. But I don't see regular Saudis doing it either.

Why is Bush still in Whitehouse? Cause election is in November. i don't know if you've been keeping up with news, but Bush's approval rating is now dwindling. If you want to come up with argument about popularity rate equaling to how good/bad a leader is, then you are sadly mistaken. Hitler was holding onto solid popular rate, but that doesn't mean his ideologies were good. And before you talk about democratic election of Hitler, notice that he did not go through a coup de t'at(ok i'm not a French speaker. please excuse my misspelling)

again, this is Iraq thread, Not US/Bush thread.

[Acecombat 0]

true, just like the Royals of Sauds need to be kicked out of their throne. their incompetency and fascist police state is nothing but a mockery of human values. But I don't see regular Saudis doing it either.

Yeah you try and SQUASH a dictatorship with what stones for weapons? A dictatorship which has precious USAs backing ? Sorry i wanna live a little more longer .... i dont wanna die fighting for a futile cause which will result in nothing.

Popularity rating has got a lot to do with whats going on a in DEMOCRATIC country , Hitlers example is the most dumbest you could bring here ralph , imagine someone saying Hitler is bad bloke under his iron hand. He wont be seen the next day.

Bush in the meanwhile IIRC is the President of a world famous democracy and not a dictatorship ? Right ?

So his popularity should have gone down but it hasnt reflecting the american publics opinion as to who they support and for what reasons.

What bitches me th most is comments like these:

1. Oh its so sad Iraq was attacked i am no fan of Bush hes muddled it all up , we shouldnt have attacked.

2. I really dont care what happen there i guess ..... *Bushs still sits atop*

3. What do those stupid ME'ers want ?

Get the drift of the double standards here? Atleast those poor protesters in the marches came out to voice their opinionn BUT even they were lynched for being un patriotic and as hippies so such for voicing your opinion. Once again showing what the majority of the Publics opinion in US stands for. If the public feels so strongly over this then why isnt BUSH out yet? If another would have done this i can bet that they would have been suspended from every oganization they were part of plus economic sanctions and the like and labelled as a terrorist or aggressive nation blah blah you get idea.

[miles teg 1]

Acecombat, it's not as simple as having a revolution.

Bush is still somewhat popular (the nation is roughly split 50/50 over whether to reelect Bush) but you have to understand that the population here in America is not much different then in Saudi Arabia or anywhere else in the world in that peception is governed by the media.  The media does not always portray a very accurate picture of what is going on in Iraq or the rest of the Middle East hence the reason why many Americans just see the people of the Middle East as a bunch of idiots.   It's simply a lack of education about the Middle East on the part of Americans (just as many Middle Easterners are ignorant about Americans) and a failing of our media to portray a clear picture of what is going on partly because the American media themselves often don't understand what's going on.

However even worse is that a large percentage of Americans DO NOT even watch the news believe it or not.  Many Americans hate watching the news or reading the news because they think its boring and has nothing to do with their own lives.  

So when something like 9/11 happens they have no clue why it happened and can only assume that it is pure evil that drives such things and that such evil must be destroyed...this pure evil is equated with Islam because the terrorists were Muslim and claimed to be waging Jihad.  

If I had never met any Arabs or Muslims and if I had never lived in the Middle East (and if I never had studied cultural anthropology), I too would believe that Middle Easterners are mostly savages trying to take over the world with a violent religion called Islam.  

I know that's not true, but most Americans don't know that.

But when it comes down to it, you're right.  Some Americans just don't care becuase all the violence in the Middle East isn't effecting them directly.   They are too busy worrying about not losing their jobs and the day to day struggle to live and pay off bills to worry about whats going on in someplace that's on the other side of the world and they don't understand.  

To be quite honest sometimes its healthier mentally to not worry so much about stuff going on in other parts of the world and to instead concentrate more on local politics and issues in their own local communities that they have more power to change.  

With all that said, many Americans do want to kick out Bush, but again we're a democracy so we do these things through our elections.  We also are constrained by our political system where all kinds of deals are made and corporate money governs much of the political process.  

Its not impossible to have change, but corporate interests are a huge block to true democracy with their massive lobbying power and financial power.  

But the #1 thing is for the American media to want to get rid of Bush.   Also there are many VERY big groups in America devoted to getting rid of Bush in the next election such as moveon.org.

The other way of getting rid of Bush is by having him impeached.   But that is extremely difficult, if not impossible to do with a Republican majority in the Congress and Senate.  Bush has even stacked our Supreme Court wth conservatives by appointing judges himself and bypassing Congress and the Senate.

So while America likes to wave the flag of democracy, in truth we are far from a perfect democracy.  It's not a terrible system, but it most certainly could be better.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Balschoiw 0]

Blair is circling like a dog chasing it´s tale.

We killed in Iraq because of terrorism...

Quote[/b] ]In a speech in his Sedgefield constituency, Mr Blair described the September 11 atrocities as a "revelation" which had opening his eyes to the scale of the terror threat and the danger of rogue states like Iraq developing weapons of mass destruction.

"It was a declaration of war by religious fanatics who were prepared to wage that war without limit," he said.

"From September 11 on, I could see the threat plainly. Here were terrorists prepared to bring about Armageddon. Here were states whose leadership cared for no-one but themselves."

Sounds like he´s talking about the USA and the Brits  

Quote[/b] ]Mr Blair's comments came as former chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix reignited the row over last year's war by saying that he believed the decision to take military action was illegal.

The Prime Minister was accused by Liberal Democrat leader Charles Kennedy of deliberately mixing up the issues of global terrorism and Iraq in a bid to construct a justification for the war.

And

Bremer's plan to tighten security fails to allay fears

Quote[/b] ]Iraq's US governor, Paul Bremer, said the US would spend $60m (Å33m) to boost security along the frontier, with more border police and hundreds of extra vehicles. But the speed at which the Iraqi forces are being created and the dearth of training are doing little to quell the fears.

A senior Kurdish security official said: "Mr Bremer proudly announced there were 8,000 border police. I told him that Saddam had around 40,000, and that was excluding the Kurdish regions."

8000 that´s a BIG sucess  

I like the money figures. He didn´t tell public that it´s not the US who pay that but the Iraquis themselves with the US controlled fund-money.

LOSERS

Quote[/b] ]Members of the governing council's security committee say they have urged US forces to share information with Iraq's security structures, but this is not routinely done.

"No Iraqi has been given security clearance by the Americans," one member said. "We want to be treated as partners in this process and not like informers. The truth is nobody knows how many foreign jihadists may be in Iraq."

Big friends ! Or don´t the USA and Brits know anything at all ?

It´s nice. You invade them, you hold them down, do nothing against the f***** security situation, don´t assist local security forces as you promised and piss off at June.

Great work !

This is so typical US. This way the TBA and TBA2 creates hundreds of free, democracy loving terrorists per day.

Good job !

[bn880 5]

Yeah all that people like us can do is get even more pissed as Bush even now has a 50/50 split for votes with Kerry. Honestly, I have my doubts about some US citizens (40%), judging by their support for such a criminal I'd say you will be hard pressed to convince many some US citizens being targets of attacks are unjustified.

I think supporting Bush is asking for it literally. Of course that is nto a threat as I am no one to be violent or plan anything, I am making external observations.

[raedor 8]

Of course that is nto a threat as I am no one to be violent or plan anything, I am making external observations.

it's enough when you're joking about not existing bombs...