State of the union address, 2004

[jakerod 254]

Ya I am not surprised about many of these. That vacation thing thing though was pretty interesting. I do not really care for George Bush, I liked Clinton better.

[Placebo 28]

Thread merged.

[bn880 5]

Wow, nice stats work there HotShot.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Sorry which threads were merged?

State of the Union Adress and ....?

Anyway, nice post Hotshot.

[HotShot 0]

Sorry which threads were merged?

State of the Union Adress and ....?

Anyway, nice post Hotshot.

...and the one i started for those stats.

But thank @WAR.

BTW Denoir, thought you left??

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Ah right ok.

Denoir's still here

Bit of a silence from the 'other side' as it were... can't they think of a reply?

[NavyEEL 0]

Bit of a silence from the 'other side' as it were... can't they think of a reply?

Maybe just tired of the monotony? The America haters will continue to hate America, regardless, as will the people with anti-Bush sentiments. Regardless of what is said, it is clear that nobody will change their opinions or consider the other point of view, so why bother? There are better ways to spend one's time.

[Gollum1 0]

Bit of a silence from the 'other side' as it were... can't they think of a reply?

Maybe just tired of the monotony? The America haters will continue to hate America, regardless, as will the people with anti-Bush sentiments. Regardless of what is said, it is clear that nobody will change their opinions or consider the other point of view, so why bother? There are better ways to spend one's time.

I agree, there's just no point in debating(when you don't win, that is).

[Placebo 28]

American haters? Where in those stats is there any hint at American hating? If anything it's Bush disliking but that's about it, please don't aggravate the situation by making inflammatory comments for something that isn't there

[NavyEEL 0]

American haters? Where in those stats is there any hint at American hating? If anything it's Bush disliking but that's about it, please don't  aggravate the situation by making inflammatory comments for something that isn't there

"My bad"

Maybe it's just the way many people word their posts... incessantly criticizing our president... criticizing our government... our foreign policy... our economy... our judicial system... our military... and our population for "tolerating" all of the above, so to speak.  Call me crazy, but from this end it's very easy to get the impression that there is quite a bit of Anti-US sentiment in here.

PS I am not trying to "inflame" anything

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

...Because there's just no way that your government, president, country etc could do ANYTHING wrong

[EiZei 0]

Oh yeah, real rational putting irrational "USA IS THE GREAT SATAN! OMG"-lunatics and people who dont just like GWBs foreign policy in the same pigeon hole.

[shrike 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it's just the way many people word their posts... incessantly criticizing our president... criticizing our government... our foreign policy... our economy... our judicial system... our military... and our population for "tolerating" all of the above, so to speak.

Well I think it's natural the US attracts more attention and hence more criticism than other countries.

In the end the US are in a position where domestic decisions and developments as well as their foreign policy have a huge influence on present and future of many other countries, if not the world as a whole. Especially when official policy seems to be to export (or impose) their values on the rest of the world.

The USA bear a high responsibility and unfortunately for the future of all it is handled very poorly at the moment. Eventually this problem will solve itself as every entity dominating by power and power alone failed in the long run....the difference to ancient times being the "blast radius" of their fall, so to say.

To sum it up: Some may be overly critical. But I think they're entitled to be because when GWB farts, the world stinks.

[denoir 0]

Maybe it's just the way many people word their posts... incessantly criticizing our president... criticizing our government... our foreign policy... our economy... our judicial system... our military... and our population for "tolerating" all of the above, so to speak.  Call me crazy, but from this end it's very easy to get the impression that there is quite a bit of Anti-US sentiment in here.

Well, it has its reasons. First of there's the Iraq war. Second, there's Bush who immidately after getting into power started not only withdrawing from international projects, but actively tried to sabotage them. It made him a popular target and an  particularly easy one as he is by any standard the dumbest polititian since King Christian V of Denmark declared his horse to be member of parliament.

Third, and this is the really big one: The last 50 years the world has been bombarded with American products that more often that not bring an ideological message. We can take movies and television for example. In most countries, the imported American movies vastly outnumber the domestic production. 99% of these movies actively promote the 'American Way' as subtly as a drunk elephant in a china shop. Everything form your president, economy, and military to your fast food is displayed as the ultmiate solution. No nation is more replete with patriotic imegery in the word, sin and symbol than America. No nation makes more use of its icons to express an idea of self that is explicitly a view of history, of society and of national mission. The "American Dream" is sold without irony or doubt. At the same times themselves are very isolated from non-American cultures.

So frankly, people outside the US are fed up with recieving a huge dose of American propaganda and are fed-up with the uncritical flag waving.  People listen to this glorification of the American system and say - "Hang on a minute. That actually sucks. We have a far better thing here." What you get is a healthy critical review of those claims. At the same time, Americans being very isolated from the rest of the world can't for the world imagine what could be wrong with their amazing system. It's the best and only thing that they've ever seen. So those that express scepticism against it must be raving madmen, jealous of the marvelous American way.

In the end, that kind of thinking is only bad for America as you are sabotaging your own possibilities for evolving your society. Instead of mindlessly propagating your ideals, you should debate them to see if they can be improved or not.

Btw, as for the "anti-us" sentiment here, you should note that about 2/3 of the members are Europeans.  Europe is America's best and closest friends. We share the same basic culture, values and ideologies. Now if you think that what you hear from Europeans is anti-american then you can imagine what people who actually don't like you think of America. Well, you got a sample from it 9/11.

For your own good it's imperative that you understand why you have such a bad rep in the world.

[ralphwiggum 6]

it takes two to make a transaction. while people whine about US intrusion on screens, there are people who watch it too. maybe not watching it would be better step, thus driving demand down and make it unprofitable for US movie to appear in other nations?

and as i say frequently, if other nations want to compete, then don't hesitate. there are good movies(and bad ones) from other side of the pond. if they can somehow grab US market, i have no qualms with.

and where on State of Union adress was media amentioned?

[theavonlady 2]

it takes two to make a transaction. while people whine about US intrusion on screens, there are people who watch it too. maybe not watching it would be better step, thus driving demand down and make it unprofitable for US movie to appear in other nations?

Of course they hate American TV. They dub it!

Ever see Columbo in German?! Argh!

[toadlife 3]

No nation is more replete with patriotic imegery in the word, sin and symbol than America. No nation makes more use of its icons to express an idea of self that is explicitly a view of history, of society and of national mission. The "American Dream" is sold without irony or doubt. At the same times themselves are very isolated from non-American cultures.

Would you expect anything different from a global superpower? I have a hard time believing that America is the first superpower to demonstrate this behavior.

There always has been much debate going on internally in the U.S. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening. I think the one thing that insults American’s is the premise that we are blind followers and we have no real democracy and/or that all of our systems are universally corrupt. It's something I hear all the time here.

The governor being recalled in California is a good example of the people exercising their power (for better or for worse) in the United States and ousting a (supposedly) corrupt politician.

I'm one of those "the glass is half full" types, and think things are getting better. Look at the U.S.'s past - We had slavery, Genocide against Native Americans, the invasion (and theft) of half of Mexico.

Yes, our government did a lot of really bad things in the past, yet most historians agree that corruption in our government is much less than it was in past years.

We want to improve ourselves and the world just as much as the next country, but the big difference I see between Americans and Europeans is the Europeans tend be a lot more pessimistic about everything.

[denoir 0]

it takes two to make a transaction. while people whine about US intrusion on screens, there are people who watch it too. maybe not watching it would be better step, thus driving demand down and make it unprofitable for US movie to appear in other nations?

It doesn't take two when one is completely dominant. If even Europe with it's industrial strength worries about too much American influence on the culture, then you can imagine how it is for the third-world countries, who have no chance in hell of competing.

The system works like this. A single episode of a hit television show, such as the Simpsons costs up to 5 million euros to make. This money is recouped by selling the show to a single network in the US and Canada. The European sales are pure profit. Once the American and European markets are sewn up, the programmes are dumped on Third World television stations according to a long established formula for payment. The higher a country's per capita income, the higher it is on the ladder of 'development, the more it pays.

Thus, a British channel will pay something in the region of 300,000- 400,000 euros for an episode of the Simpsons, Malaysia may aquire the same show for less than 70,000 euros and Bangladesh for only 25,000 euros.

Thus a programme with exceptionally high production values is sold for peanuts, making it impossible for local programming, working on modest to miniscule budgets to compete. Inevitably local programming always look inferior to imported shows.

But programmes are not bought individually; they are bought in package deals. So a major proportion of the seasonal output of a local cahnnel in a developing country may consist exclusively of the imported package.

Quote[/b] ]and as i say frequently, if other nations want to compete, then don't hesitate. there are good movies(and bad ones) from other side of the pond. if they can somehow grab US market, i have no qualms with.

Except for that the US free trade principles only work one way. Imported movies are taxed and tariffed beyond belief. Apart from tthat is the thing that I mentioned in my previos post: large portions of the US public are completely ignorant and uninterested in the rest of the world. They live under the impression that if it ain't American it ain't good.

[theavonlady 2]

There are way too many generalities in your post, Denoir.

There are tons of imported products in the US, from foods to toys to clothes to cars.

And much of your post sounds like plain jealousy.

That would explain why you want Bill Gates to cough up money to pay for producing the Euro-Simpsons.

Oh..................... that's made in the USA, too.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]In a new six-part series entitled Age of Empire, the BBC's Jonathan Marcus sets out on a journey to examine America's place in the modern world.

BBC

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]The system works like this. A single episode of a hit television show, such as the Simpsons costs up to 5 million euros to make. This money is recouped by selling the show to a single network in the US and Canada. The European sales are pure profit. Once the American and European markets are sewn up, the programmes are dumped on Third World television stations according to a long established formula for payment. The higher a country's per capita income, the higher it is on the ladder of 'development, the more it pays.

and here's where the beauty of intellectual prodcut comes in. if there is enough developlment of good films or shows, it won't stop from getting market. for example, Bend it like beckham did fairly well here in US, despite it being a UK product, and laced with some cultural issues that many americans are not familiar with.

the simpsons started out with 13 episodes and satirical humor of Matt Groening. it took some investing from Fox, but it was originally from Groening's idea that it becmae famous and after fame came funds for further developlemt.

a good example of a good program would be 'telletubbies' it was so loved by those around the world and here that some nut denounced it.

it is not question of development cost, but also that of ideas and creativity, which europe do have, but is not 'dumbed' down for more broader appeal. not that it has to appeal to those who rip their rear bumpers off, but another movie like 'cinema pardiso', 'malena', 'It's a beautiful life' all did fairly well. problem is that there are no good follow ups.

Quote[/b] ]Except for that the US free trade principles only work one way. Imported movies are taxed and tariffed beyond belief. Apart from tthat is the thing that I mentioned in my previos post:

it works both ways. Japan has quota system where their movies are guaranteed to be shown on certain number of screens for certain time, and i think France has that too. If US customs bitch about it, there's nothing that prevents from other countries to do the same. and not to mention that evil Ikea growing up here in US.

[denoir 0]

No nation is more replete with patriotic imegery in the word, sin and symbol than America. No nation makes more use of its icons to express an idea of self that is explicitly a view of history, of society and of national mission. The "American Dream" is sold without irony or doubt. At the same times themselves are very isolated from non-American cultures.

Would you expect anything different from a global superpower? I have a hard time believing that America is the first superpower to demonstrate this behavior.

In general terms, no, probably not. But you should equally not be surprised by the criticism directed at you. Perhaps what's more remarkable is that it has not changed much over the years. It's in the same spirit as the Soviet and American propaganda was in the 50's. In Europe after thousands of years of wars and fighting we've concluded that nationalism ain't all that great. So being force-fed other people's nationalist patriotic imagery ain't all that popular.

Quote[/b] ]There always has been much debate going on internally in the U.S.  Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening. I think the one thing that insults American?s is the premise that we are blind followers and we have no real democracy and/or that all of our systems are universally corrupt. It's something I hear all the time here.

No, far from it. If you compare Europe and America, we have fairly similar ideals and culture. You do tend however to project an image outwards of "united we stand" blah blah image of unquestioning and uncritical mindless patriotism. Of course you do have an internal debate, but due to your self imposed isolation from influence from the rest of the world, that discussion tends to be confined into quite specific boundaries. It's very noticable even when you discuss things with the most progressive American liberals. There is a certain foundation that is a holy cow, not to be touched or questioned. And it's hardly surprising as an effect of a long term exposure to a system that defines patriotism as the ultimate virtue.

Quote[/b] ]I'm one of those "the glass is half full" types, and think things are getting better. Look at the U.S.'s past - We had slavery, Genocide against Native Americans, the invasion (and theft) of half of Mexico.

It is getting better, but you are improving relative your own values. With little influence from the outside, such progress is limited and slow.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, our government did a lot of really bad things in the past, yet most historians agree that corruption in our government is much less than it was in past years.

Well, Bush certainly doesn't make an effort to show that.

Quote[/b] ]We want to improve ourselves and the world just as much as the next country, but the big difference I see between Americans and Europeans is the Europeans tend be a lot more pessimistic about everything.

We have a bit more history and experience. We've been experimenting with different forms of government for thousands of years. We've gone to war an endless number of times. Basically we've reached the conclusion that there are no quick-and-dirty solutions to things. There is no absolute set of ultimate values etc

[denoir 0]

There are way too many generalities in your post, Denoir.

Possibly, but we can't make a model without making some generalizations. I'm trying to explain to NavyEEL the source of the criticism directed at the US.

Quote[/b] ]There are tons of imported products in the US, from foods to toys to clothes to cars.

It's nothing compared to the amount of goods that are exported to other countries. The ratio is the point.

Quote[/b] ]And much of your post sounds like plain jealousy.

I see that you are a member of the George W. Bush Club of Intelligent Reasoning. Thank you for illustrating my point. You make a marvelous stereo-type.

Quote[/b] ]That would explain why you want Bill Gates to cough up money to pay for producing the Euro-Simpsons.

What on earth are you talking about?

[denoir 0]

and here's where the beauty of intellectual prodcut comes in. if there is enough developlment of good films or shows, it won't stop from getting market. for example, Bend it like beckham did fairly well here in US, despite it being a UK product, and laced with some cultural issues that many americans are not familiar with.

Bend it like beckham was first of all a very rare example of a non-US film that made a commercial success in the US. Second, it's an inferior example of both British and European cinema. Third, it made far less money than the average US movie.

Quote[/b] ]

the simpsons started out with 13 episodes and satirical humor of Matt Groening. it took some investing from Fox, but it was originally from Groening's idea that it becmae famous and after fame came funds for further developlemt.

a good example of a good program would be 'telletubbies' it was so loved by those around the world and here that some nut denounced it.

The Simpsons was just an example. It apples to any high-rating show, regardless of how low the quality is.

Quote[/b] ]it is not question of development cost, but also that of ideas and creativity, which europe do have, but is not 'dumbed' down for more broader appeal. not that it has to appeal to those who rip their rear bumpers off, but another movie like 'cinema pardiso', 'malena', 'It's a beautiful life' all did fairly well. problem is that there are no good follow ups.

There is a common misconception that Europeans are somehow more sophisticated than Americans when it comes to movies. I assure you that's not the case. The vast majority watches mainly American movies aimed exactly at the broader masses.

But that is all besides the point. The point is that through its completely dominant industrial strength, America can export its culture without any resistance. And the local culture gets wiped out because the domestic industry simply can't compete. At the same time America feels that it's self-sufficient and that it doesn't need foregin influences. As I said a couple of posts back, there are two possibilities how this can end (given America's continued undisputed economic, political and military influence, which is not certain):

1) We all become happy little Americans and all major cultural variations are wiped out.

2) The whole world will gang up on America and beat the crap out of it.

Perhaps it's natural social evolution. Perhaps it is good for us as a spieces to be one homogenous culture. I don't know. What I am saying is that today it pisses a lot of people off as they do not at all agree that the american way is the ultimate way to go.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Except for that the US free trade principles only work one way. Imported movies are taxed and tariffed beyond belief. Apart from tthat is the thing that I mentioned in my previos post:

it works both ways. Japan has quota system where their movies are guaranteed to be shown on certain number of screens for certain time, and i think France has that too. If US customs bitch about it, there's nothing that prevents from other countries to do the same. and not to mention that evil Ikea growing up here in US.

Again, it's a question of ratio. The US exports so much more than anybody else, that comparisons are pointless.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Bend it like beckham was first of all a very rare example of a non-US film that made a commercial success in the US. Second, it's an inferior example of both British and European cinema. Third, it made far less money than the average US movie.

not at all there are others like 'Leon', and several others i meantioned below. and as you say such things are considered inferior but it sells. i don't know what your definition of a good movie is, but such 'inferior' movies are the ones that also gets sold since it takes in the most common denominator. if anything, this shows that by having less of eurocentric taste and go for broader audience, european movies have a good shot at US market too, not to mention rest of the world.

also, given the cost it took to make that movie, and couple it with your argument about foreign export being pure profits, it falls into one of those movies that are made available because they were successful in european markets.

i also think that average money that US movies make is not as good as it seems. some movies(like the ones with Sylvester Stallone) tend to have negative total profit since their cost of production is much higher than revenue they get. Hollywood is not having profit parties all the time.

Quote[/b] ]The Simpsons was just an example. It apples to any high-rating show, regardless of how low the quality is.

if it has proven itself to the initial market, it will be sold. take a look at 'Idol'. Simon Cowell started out from UK, and it was sold to a lot more countries including US. what is the result? some Norweigian winning the 'World Idol', another product of franchise. It started out as a show in UK, but it managed to get shown from a lot of nations.(oh the horror! )

Quote[/b] ]There is a common misconception that Europeans are somehow more sophisticated than Americans when it comes to movies. I assure you that's not the case. The vast majority watches mainly American movies aimed exactly at the broader masses.

But that is all besides the point.

yes it is the point. there are people who are going to pay to see US movies. if there are none, then there won't be 'Yankee Invasion'. there is no reason to beleive that european producers are not capable of making movies that will appeal to such demographics you described above.

Quote[/b] ] The point is that through its completely dominant industrial strength, America can export its culture without any resistance. And the local culture gets wiped out because the domestic industry simply can't compete. At the same time America feels that it's self-sufficient and that it doesn't need foregin influences. As I said a couple of posts back, there are two possibilities how this can end (given America's continued undisputed economic, political and military influence, which is not certain):

1) We all become happy little Americans and all major cultural variations are wiped out.

2) The whole world will gang up on America and beat the crap out of it.

3) make better product that will be better in competition. it's always easier to drag someone down than to make better of yourself. competition makes things work. economics says so, and even Karl MArx applied the logic to his ideaology, claiming that class war will lead to better society(eventually ruled by proletiats).

although it is somewhat ridiculous, France had some restriction on language used in its domestic movies and tv shows. isn't that something? it's not like europeans are brainless zombies who follow orders and watch US movies.

Quote[/b] ]What I am saying is that today it pisses a lot of people off as they do not at all agree that the american way is the ultimate way to go.

a contradiction. you mentioned that people are getting bombarded with americanization and fall into it. however, you claim that they are not happy with it. if those people do not mind watching better product such as a nice european movie and shell out money for them instead of some lousy US movie, this would be an argument that would work, but said fact is they worry about 'americanization' but they also contribute to it.

Quote[/b] ]Again, it's a question of ratio. The US exports so much more than anybody else, that comparisons are pointless.

kinda funny cause US's trade deficits is still larger.