India buys russian aircraft carrier

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Quote[/b] ]India has signed a $1.6bn deal to buy a refurbished aircraft carrier and 12 warplanes from Russia.

The agreement was signed in the Indian capital, Delhi, and witnessed by Defence Minister George Fernandes and his Russian counterpart, Sergei Ivanov.

Russia says it will deliver the carrier, the Admiral Gorshkov, by 2008.

Russia is India's largest supplier of military hardware and military co-operation forms a key part of relations between the two countries.

Tuesday's signing ceremony is the high point of a three day visit by Mr Ivanov to India.

Mr Ivanov was unwilling to into details of Tuesday's deal when he spoke to journalists in Delhi.

"Military and technical co-operation is a highly sensitive area and so I am not making any more comment on that," he said.

He did, however, describe the agreement as a "landmark deal".

Mr Fernandes described the signing as a "historic occasion".

'Fine deal'

The Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier is a 29-year-old ship which the Russians took out of service in 1994.

The deal has been criticised over the years by some in India who feel too much is being spent for a relatively old ship.

But last December India's navy chief, Admiral Madhvendra Singh, defended the purchase, saying it would be a "fine deal".

Russia is now committed to giving the Gorshkov a total overhaul. The 12 warplanes included in the deal are MiG-29 fighter jets.

Mr Ivanov said the deal included other "components", although he did not specify what they are.

Some reports say they include helicopters, missiles and electronics systems, the AFP news agency reports.

Last May, the two countries' navies held war exercises in the Arabian Sea, with the aim of consolidating defence relations between the two countries in addition to strengthening Russian presence in the area.

Mr Ivanov's visit to India also includes talks on combating terrorism and nuclear issues.

Is there a navy version of the Mig-29 I thought the navy airplane of choice for Russian based carriers was a variation of the Su-27

1.6bn is not bad though, Nimitz carriers cost a lot more. As far as I know, the Gorshkov is about 2/3 of the size of a Nimitz, isn't it?

[aj_addons 0]

the navel version is the mig 29k but i thought russia used su-33's instead

[theavonlady 2]

Is there a navy version of the Mig-29

Yes.

"MIG-29k maritime jets"

What would we do without Islamic Republic Of Iran's Broadcasting?!

[Tydium 0]

Here is some info about the ship.

Here is an interesting quote from the article

Quote[/b] ]

Negotiations between Russia and India began in 1994 for the sale of the Admiral Gorshkov, which had been inactive since 1991. On 11 January 1999 Indian Minister of Defense George Fernandes acknowledged that agreement had been reached on the sale. The Gorshkov reportedly would be extensively modified at a cost of between $500-650 million to accommodate conventional take-off and landing aircraft [possibly either the Su-27K Flanker-D or the smaller MiG-29K Fulcrum-D]. The refit would include addition of a bow ski-jump take-off ramp, and removal of the missile launchers to make room for the ramp. The refit at Severodvinsk was expected to take up to three years. As of early 2001 negotiations continued, with Russia offering to donate the ship itself if India paid the conversion costs [which India was reluctant to do]. By late 2000 India had rejected the Russian offer of 22 new MiG-29K shipboard fighters, which remained unproven for naval service.

So they have been negoating about this deal for a long time.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Interesting.

Another question is - what do they need an aircraft carrier for? Defence against Sri Lanka ?? Or sea-based nuclear deterrant?

[theavonlady 2]

Maybe they plan on just dropping it on Karachi.

[m21man 0]

*Deleted*

[Tydium 0]

Well Admiral Gorshkov won't be the their first carrier. They are currently operating atleast one carrier.

[Balschoiw 0]

India expands military in a way it gets scary imo.

Most of this goes unwatched as all are focussed on their nuclear issue.

India has interests in certain countries and a carrier is a great point to start things from. I don´t trust them atm. Same with Pakistan China Russia Honolulu etc

Anyway here are some pics and such:

Quote[/b] ]24 MiG-29K planes and six Ka-2, Ka-28 or Ka-31 helicopters which seem to have been ordered

[mr burns 131]

Another question is - what do they need an aircraft carrier for? Defence against Sri Lanka ?? Or sea-based nuclear deterrant?

me thinks they need it to play: "who has the bigger one" with USA.

maybe india is just upset (or envious) that GI Joe has possibility to start wars wherever they can supply their troops to, and now India wants to have a similar force with the same rights...

[hellfish6 7]

Being a big fan of India, of course I'm very happy that they've finally got their new carrier. I know their other carrier is mainly used for Harriers and ASW work, but I'm a bit curious as to why India needs to put MiG-29s on a carrier. Do the SLOCs to the Andaman Islands or other distant Indian holdings need a carrier to be protected? I'm under the impression that with the new SU-30s, there's nothing out of range of their Air Force that would be of interest to them.

I'd say the same thing about China, though - what do they need or want a carrier for? Coastal defense? Neither navy operates very far from home ports, IIRC.

[hellfish6 7]

Another question is - what do they need an aircraft carrier for? Defence against Sri Lanka ?? Or sea-based nuclear deterrant?

me thinks they need it to play: "who has the bigger one" with USA.

maybe india is just upset (or envious) that GI Joe has possibility to start wars wherever they can supply their troops to, and now India wants to have a similar force with the same rights...

India is a world power, but they're one of the few true neutrals in the world, IMHO. I seriously doubt that India has a naval form of penis envy and one carrier doesn't suggest that they're going to start sending ships to far-flung corners of the world to conquer and subjugate.

The Kiev class was originally designed to provide some air cover to the Soviet Navy's KPUG surface warfare groups, who used long range missiles to threaten the Americans and the sea lines of communication. This is why the Soviets never built a true full-deck carrier until it was too late, and why they chose to install cruise missiles on the Kiev-class, which by the way, is classified as an aircraft carrying guided missile cruiser, not a true carrier.

[Acecombat 0]

Hellfish my man have you been living under a rock?

India neutral = hahaha

They are as much secular or neutral as hitler was a pshyco.

Anyway this was a very bad deal that carrier looks as if its falling to pieces , the indians will probably spend more money redecorating it and its carrier runway to their needs. Still its a poor target though last time i remember in 1970 indias one and only carrier was running away from a Pakistani sub which chased it from West to the East of India near Bangladesh , i am forgetting the name of the Carrier though , the Pakistani sub which chased it was Ghazi their crew got high honours and medals for a successfuly op against Inidan Naval authority and for laying down depth charges right under the Indian Waters in the Bay of Bengal. Too bad they got hit by one of their own sea mines due to mis calculations which proved fatal to their sub.

this new buy is again gonna prove fruitless , since Pakistan has much less area to defend while India has a lot to cover the Pakistani navy wont allow this carrier or its group to come near strike range to operate freely during war i think.

[bucket man 2]

If India and Pakistan go to war without nukes who would "win"?

[Acecombat 0]

No one dude , the Pakis got a competent army they would hold off the Indians i think. Plus the Indians could even lose a lot of ground to them , especially since Indias latest Tank the Arjun or whatevrr it was turned out to be a massive failure project for the army as it was too heavy for the desert and sank .

The Indians got quantity not quality

Theindians have got the airforce and the nice hardware but paks have got one of the best pilots in the PAF some of them even flew for our AF's and train here too , some even flew against the Israelis i think and scored kills.Indians have got the latest SUkhois which have range Paks have got upgraded Mirages and migs along with the newFC-1 fighter being made with china since the americans didnt give them the F-16;s even after recieving payment and practically looted the deal off. Since they didnt bother paying the money back.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Being a big fan of India, of course I'm very happy that they've finally got their new carrier. I know their other carrier is mainly used for Harriers and ASW work, but I'm a bit curious as to why India needs to put MiG-29s on a carrier. Do the SLOCs to the Andaman Islands or other distant Indian holdings need a carrier to be protected? I'm under the impression that with the new SU-30s, there's nothing out of range of their Air Force that would be of interest to them.

I'd say the same thing about China, though - what do they need or want a carrier for? Coastal defense? Neither navy operates very far from home ports, IIRC.

The carrier that the Chinese bought was meant to be turned into a casino though, not a combat vessel?

[Tovarish 0]

The carrier China bough was turned into a casino...as for India wanting one, well, it's a sort of military bargaining chip, much like nukes but a lot less sensitive, and we all know they have an ongoing arms race with Pakistan...so it makes a lot of sense that they want this.

As for the MiG-29k being chosen, I'm glad this bird is finally going to be put into service, I think Russia made a mistake by buying all Su-33's, which take a lot more space on a carrier, and are (except for the newer upgrades) almost pure interceptors. The MiG-29k is a true multirole plane, able to use precision guided munitions, takes less space on a carrier deck, and is less expensive to operate. The only advantage the basic Su-33 has over it is range (and depending on the variant, radar).

Quote[/b] ]Avionics: The MiG-29K will have a Phazatron Zhuk-M (N-010) pulse Doppler radar, which has a planar slotted antenna array which is capable of acquiring 32 sq. ft. radar cross section airborne targets at a range of 50 miles. It has an azimuth scan angle of +/- 85ÅŸ, an elevation scan angle of +/- 60ÅŸ, and can track ten targets and designate four of them simultaneously. It also features a high-resolution mapping and ground target localisation mode. The Fulcrums will keep the radar's hardware but the software will be significantly updated. The cockpit will incorporates two large-screen, multi-function, liquid-crystal displays and HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick).

The Fulcrums will also be fitted with a proven SUV-29M weapons management system, which has been tested in the MiG-29M and MiG-29K. Successful test-firings of the R-77RVV-AE and R-73RDM2 air-to-air missiles, and the Kh-31A2 AShM has been conducted using the system. The SUV-29M is equipped with the RLPK-29UM pulse Doppler radar navigation-attack system, which forms part of the Zhuk-M radar; the OEPrNK-29M optical-electronic navigation & attack system, which has a laser range-finder, and IR/TV sensors; and a helmet-mounted sight.

The aircraft's avionics will be based on MIL-STD 1533 bus. The core of the onboard computer command system will be all Russian and will include a central computer, four target designation systems (radar, TV, IR and helmet-mounted sight) and a head-up display. Although primarily to be armed with Russian weapons, Western weapons may be offered as an option. Integration of Western-made weapons is not expected to present problems, as RSK MiG has amassed experience of a variety of Western weapon systems during development of the Russian-French MiG-AT jet trainer and the mating the Kopyo radar on the MiG-21-93 for the IAF.

Weapons: Due to an integrated weapon selection panel, the MiG-29K can use a wide range of weapons, which includes no less than eight types of air-to-air missiles and 25 air-to-surface weapons. The weapon selection system enables the pilot to fire more than one type of weapon per attack. The aircraft is armed with an internal 30mm GSh-301 gun, with 150 rounds.

In the air superiority role the close-combat R-60MK and the R-73RDM2, the medium-range R-27RE1/TE1 and the long-range R-77RVV-AE air-to-air missiles can be carried. In the air-to-surface role, the aircraft can be armed with the Kh-31P2 anti-radar missile, the Kh-31A2 anti-ship missile, the AS-20 (air-launched Kh-35) anti-ship missile, the TV-guided Kh-29T missile, the TV-guided KAB-500Kr bomb, S-8 unguided rockets or S-24B rockets, plus 550 lbs or 1100 lbs dumb bombs.

More Info

[Acecombat 0]

Dont these Mig's have degraded radar capacities?

How do they fair up to the chinese FC-1 and J-10 and 12 aircrafts btw?

[Tovarish 0]

Dont these Mig's have degraded radar capacities?  

The Russians have stopped their habit of downgrading military export kit once the USSR fell appart and they found it necessary to be competitive in the export arms market as opposed to having guaranteed weapon sales to client states. They only downgrade their most sensitive equipment, and keep in mind that they want the sales so even then they try to be competitive.

Quote[/b] ]How do they fair up to the chinese FC-1 and J-10 and 12 aircrafts btw?

The FC-1 is based on the MiG-33, (export designation, Russian designation is MiG-29M) which is basically a ground-based variant of the MiG-29K. So not much difference there. The J-10 no one knows much about yet, and the J-12 is a planned 5th generation jet that as far as we all know is still strictly on the drawing board.

[Gadger 0]

India bought it simply because Pakistan doesn't have the resources to construct or buy a vessel of this type.

Its just one of them "whos got the biggest C*ck competitons"

[Acecombat 0]

Pakistan would be a fool if they tried even getting one , you need resources first of all to defend it and secondly whats the use? They need to defend a small patch of land. Those Agosta subs by France are in PANs fleet already so theyre pretty fine.

Tovarish i think you missed the point russia is still selling degraded radar Mig's , it did to NK and IRAQ and maybe still is i think i read about it on a Defense force forum once.

And that Fc-1 is a totally new fighter it was PAF and Chinas answer to the F-16 i think and it hasnt got anything that can bring similarities to the Mig-33 as you said maybe i am wrong but from the preliminary pics i hav seen it looks very different.

The J-12 is said to be a stealth aircraft too lets see how much weight it would carry by that time the US wuld be over their F-22's.

[Tovarish 0]

Tovarish i think you missed the point russia is still selling degraded radar Mig's , it did to NK and IRAQ and maybe still is i think i read about it on a Defense force forum once.

Iraq didn't get any more Mig's from Russia since GW1, and NK bought theirs used. India is getting their MiG-29K's custom made, and what I'm telling you is the new makes of export aircraft are not downgraded since MiG-MAPO now needs to be competitive to survive

Quote[/b] ]And that Fc-1 is a totally new fighter it was PAF and Chinas answer to the F-16 i think and it hasnt got anything that can bring similarities to the Mig-33 as you said maybe i am wrong but from the preliminary pics i hav seen it looks very different.

The MiG-29 was Russia's answer to the F-16  

From Chinese Defense Today:

Quote[/b] ]the Russians are using the Super-7/FC-1 as a continuation of the MiG-33 (R33) programme developed in the 1980s. Like the MiG-33, the Super-7/FC-1 uses the RD-93 turbofans, though the Super-7/FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. With Russian technical assistance the redesigned Super-7/FC-1 has improved climb out performance and steering capabilities along with a stronger fuselage.

However, the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment to the added tail edgings, providing aerial manoeuvrability that is claimed to match that of the U.S. F-16. These improvements in performance have affected the programme's costs, and if the final production order is fewer than 300 aircraft the unit price will rise from the original $10 million to $15 million.

So basically we have a landbased Mig-29K made over to look like an F-16. The avionics can not be much different than what the Indian Mig-29K is getting.

Quote[/b] ]The J-12 is said to be a stealth aircraft too    lets see how much weight it would carry by that time the US wuld be over their F-22's.

It looks good on paper, but it's still a long way off and not a fair comparison.

[Acecombat 0]

Ah i see.

What would be interesting to know is that which missiles would the FC-1 carry , the last encounter the PAF and IAF had over kargil was in Indian favour as the Sukhois had longer range and locked on to the PAF jets before they could. But they both turned back knowing a share of missils would not be nice

Hope they put BVR's on it.

[edc 0]

Balschoiw, are you sure that's the right pic? That looks like a Kiev class Carrier which could only operate Yak-38s(which were a poor attempt at a Russian V/STOL), I'd be surprised that a Mig-29K could fly off that.

[joltan 0]

I guess that's why the Indians will have the missiles replaced with a ramp...