War against terror

[Panda-PL- 0]

Listen Phil:

1) on what basis you claim that religion was a cause of slavery. The cause was STRICTLY economical.

2) on what basis you claim civil war to be caused by slavery? North was more industrialized and didn't get much proffit from slavery, while for South ending slavery would be a compleate economical disaster. The goal could have been not  to free slaves but to hit the South's economics.

3) still you misunderstand the cause of MODERN terrorism.

4) You cannot talk sense into fanatics, even if You're a respectfull religious leader. It is like with little kids - if You start talking sense into them they'll cover their ears and start to shout. Whatever You say and whoever You are is MEANINGLESS if they don't listen. And they din't listen to anyone but THEIR leader.

5) Why do you say that terrorers are religious in the first place? What proof there is beside their claims. Do You belive the words of a criminal? They want to make impression of jihad, but how can you even prove they are religious.

There are two kinds of terrorers - suicidal bombings by shahids - mortyrs of several organisations such as Hezbollah that brainwashes them from the time they are little kids. They really know nothing about Islam, because they are isolated from other scholars.

- and modern superterrorists - international crime organisations like Al'quida which claims to defend Islam, while really it's higher and middle ranks dont really care about what Prophet said. All they want is to gain power, and if dragging muslims and christians into war against each other is gonna help them - they can be muslims.

Or are You maybe of "that" kind, and you think that all evil in this world would dissapear if we all became atheists?

There is far more then religion to kill for. Some people kill for five dollars, some kill for fun, some because they can, some because they're up to change the world and bring peace to it: Ecco-terrorers would kill for our common good.

Comunists would kill for our common good.

Anarchists would kill for our common good

Some want to go to heven.

@Bernadotte.

Quote[/b] ]but yes there's nothing about that in it.

This means that REALLY the report didn't contained anything about France realising their mistake.

I f***'n agree with You and still i'm a morron? Could you now explain your point?

Or maybe I'm stupid to say that you are right. You have some kind of shizofremia?

Anyway I see now that some people joined in without reading what we wrote previously. I think that the difference between terrorists reasons and excuses used was allready pointed out.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The Centre of birmingham has been evacuated.

Quote[/b] ]Police evacuate Birmingham centre

Police in Birmingham are evacuating large parts of the city centre amid a security alert.

West Midlands Police said people were being asked to leave the centre, particularly Broad Street, as a "precautionary measure".

No vehicles are being allowed past the inner ring road into the city centre, and there have also been reports of controlled explosions by police.

Police said it was in response to intelligence the force had received.

"It's quite tense," said BBC journalist Toby Brown.

No vehicles are being allowed to be moved, he added.

Birmingham resident Kenneth Kelsall told the BBC: "There is a lot of confusion, there appears to be no chance of anyone moving back into the city - but people are remaining quiet."

West Midlands Police announced they had received intelligence of a possible threat to the area around 2015BST.

Initially people were told to be on their guard and that bars and restaurants were being searched. Motorists were also told not to come into the city centre.

Around 2100BST the police announced that the city was to be evacuated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4668313.stm

Regards Walker

[miles teg 1]

Hi Miles Teg

Well that is down to the Mosques issuing a fatwa condemning the bombers of civilians to hell. I think the average Iraqi would welcome it as well as the average Londoner. Myself I do not believe in it but if that floats your boat in London get out and do it, thousands of the millions of Londoners are muslims, same as they are jews, christians, punk rockers, anarchists, budhists, hindus, believers in the force and Luke Skywalker, athiests, agnostics, crystal worshipers, wikas, druids, hells angels, satanists, socialist workers party, any dance party, the pub or whatever...

@ Bernadotte we have already won that one, there were thousands of new people moving to live in London yesterday same as any other day. We will always win that one.

Kind Regards walker

Well first off Walker I don't live in London and I'm not rich enough just to fly off in an airplane. However I am actively beginning to target at least the English language Wahabi sites and doing alot of research to combat the militant super literal interpretations of those who they claim as scholars. Ironically they ignore the mainstream traditional scholars of Islam and only focus for the most part on modern Wahabi/Salefi scholars or older scholars who's views were never accepted by early mainstream Islamic scholars and councils during the first centuries of Islam during which Hadiths were compiled and the science of the Hadiths was developed. The main problem is that Wahabi/Salefi types tend to make Islam WAAAY difficult and want to fight to the death over every tiny little detail of Islamic dogma and call anyone who disagrees with them infidels and act as if any tiny misinterpretation will condem a person to enternal hell. Basically they tend to totally miss what their religion is about in the first place. To them its about following every tiny rule in order to assure their place in heaven...they kinda ignore the good deeds part or think that as long as they are nice just to other Wahabis/Salefis and only help their fellow Wahabis and of coarse do Jihad, that then they'll be guaranteed to go into heaven.

The problem against dismissing their claims is that there are thousands of Hadiths that can be taken out of context which they use. There are also sayings of early followers of Mohammed and of the Caliphates that are used to justify their interpretations and held up on the same level or above the Qu'ran...

Fortunately almost always other Hadiths can be used to counter their arguements. Often it just becomes a big stupid battle of Hadiths.... which is not what Islam is supposed to be about. Others like some Sufi sects concentrate on the 5 pillars of Islam and just being good human beings rather then get involved with all the political crap in their religion.

Wahabis hate Sufis because they say they add things to the religion, and say they do Bid'ah or inovations by adding things like doing some extra prayers or whirling (like the Whirling Dervishes of Turkey). But they also ignore the rulings of the majority of Islamic scholars in which "Bid'ah" is devided into two categories: Bad Bidah (innovations that deviate radically from Islamic principles and create seperate religions like Bahai, Seikhs, ect...) and good Bid'ah (Bid'ah Hasana) which is doing voluntary (not mandatory) things like doing extra prayers, chanting the names of Allah, or doing interfaith dialog to teach non-Muslims about Islam and learn about other religions so that they are not ignorant of them.... basically things that make them a better Muslim and that they do to express their love for God. Wahabis in contrast seem more interested in expressing their bitterness, anger, and hatred.

At any rate, its not about what floats my boat. Its about reaching out to these extremists in dialog...but even more important enveloping them with a constant barrage of counter-propaganda to counter the tons of Wahabi propaganda that they get from Saudi Arabia and that is everwhere in their mosque's library.

These are things that I am actively working on doing both locally and over the internet until I get employment doing this type of work as a career. Until then I am trying to get more people interested in doing similar work as well and realize that the only way to destroy these terrorists is to destroy their wayward ideology by completely delegitimizing it using their own religion.

Its simply applying good psychological/sociological principles to reduce or remove their motivations for attacking us and instead encouraging them in a positive manner to take more productive means of voicing their grievances and embracing the peaceful, tolerant interpretations of their religion that are entirely compatible with the West.

Countries like Malaysia and Indonesia for example are showing that it is possible for Muslim countries to progress into the new Millenia and are rapidly becoming major economic powers.

So basically they must be given a positive, Islamic based message of hope.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

Hehe:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4673987.stm

Apparently London is safe enough for the Queen to parade in an open-topped car, but not for US soldiers.

[Bernadotte 0]

Apparently London is safe enough for the Queen to parade in an open-topped car...

It was probably Charles' idea.  

[walker 0]

Hi all

Raids and arrests have been made in connection with the London bombings.

Quote[/b] ]Arrests over London bomb attacks

Arrests have been made in Yorkshire after the identity of the suspected London bus bomber led police to make a series of raids.

Security sources said the bus bomb suspect died in the blast but it is unclear if it was a suicide bombing.

They believe the four bombers were British born and all died in the Thursday's bombings.

Police have carried out controlled explosions in Leeds and Luton and searched six houses.

BBC home affairs correspondent Margaret Gilmore said all four bombers were believed to have died in the blasts.

Meanwhile police in Leeds are looking for explosives and have already seized some material.

An unoccupied house in the Burley area of Leeds was one of six raided in Leeds after the attacks.Up to 600 people have been evacuated from the area.

Police cleared people from homes as well as a mosque, a health centre and an old people's home...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4674463.stm#

Kind Regards Walker

[Pathy 0]

How can they be certain that they all died in the blasts but uncertain if they were suicide bombers - if they blew themselves up in order to detonate the bomb, that makes them a suicide bomber!

Hope they catch the guilty partys though.

[Akira 0]

I remember hearing somewhere that they thought one had blown himself up unintentionally...

Course if all four blew themselves up, either they were quite incompetent, unwittingly used by someone who planned the bombings, or were suicide bombers...

The second option is the most worrying.

[Pathy 0]

Yup, because then youve got to link them all to the person who set them up to carry the bombs, which could be next to impossible.

[Bernadotte 0]

I was trying to make some technical sense of the why the one bomb was placed in the first subway carriage of a subway train and timed to go off between stations.  You would think that a middle carriage would have more passengers and setting it to go off at one of the stops would likely kill even more people.  I now suspect they wanted to maximise the damage to the subway tunnel itself.

Consider what probably happened when the high explosives detonated at the front of the lead carriage.  The carriages walls, floor and ceiling travelling like a highspeed cylinder in a slightly larger cylinder were instantly forced outward and into the reinforced clay walls of the tunnel.  There they got jammed in like a conical scope bringing the first carriage to a halt within a few meters.  The other carriages would then start shoving the jammed and mangled remains of the lead carriage further through the tunnel walls, probably displacing or destroying a substantial length of the old reinforcing ribs.

What your left with is crime scene hell.  Not only does this section of the underground remain closed during the exhaustive forensics investigation, they have to keep the tunnel from crumbling further before they can even begin to extricate remains.  And then there's the reconstruction...

[Bordoy 0]

Anyone seen the werenotafraid website?

were not afraid

Pretty good site with some excellent pictures from people from around the world.

Quote[/b] ]Apparently London is safe enough for the Queen to parade in an open-topped car, but not for US soldiers.

It does say the ban has been lifted That means the ban is no longer in place. Some business's would of banned workers to going into London during the aftermath for a few days.

[philcommando 0]

Just a thought. Placing the bomb in the lead carriage is most effective for maximum damage. Bombs go off, rocks shatter, with the speed of the train moving fast, crumbling onto the other carriages. 1st carriage stopped in the middle of the subway, the subsequent carriages hurtles forward due to the speed, smashes into the 1st carriage - a squashed pancake effect. Better yet if the second train comming from both directions - massive pile up! Only someone of the evil calibre of Al Queers could come up with that.

Apologys to those who have lost someone reading this. The truth must be told; the terrorist criminals are in no way looking for minimum damage. That's why they must be stopped and stopped quickly.

[Pathy 0]

Seems theyve made raids and ID'd 3 of the bombers, and know of the 4th one, but yet to give him a name.

All British born muslims.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Entire Warsaw's underground was evacuated tooday at 1300 local time after an anonymus phonecall. The Police have searched the stations and underground passages and even the tunnels themselves. The civilians ae obiedant - which is quite remarkable compared to the way it usually is in my country and it's certainly due toi the example given earlier by Londoners. The caller still has not been found. It was either a stupid joke or someone's been testing the alertness of public services (don't know which one I'd rather ).

Anyone else had a false bomb allert? (Or is it just Poles who are stupid enough to do such things... )

[Bordoy 0]

We have had 2 bomb alerts in the past 3 nights in Nottingham. With 2 controlled explosions as well. All bus journeys which entered the city were stopped and the tram system was halted aswell. The city centre was cordoned off by the police for at least 2 hours last night (1600-1800 local). and because the bus's were stopped I couldn't get home yesterday after college which pissed me off.

[kerosene 0]

Some business's would of banned workers to going into London during the aftermath for a few days.

I wasn't very impressed when I read about that ban.

I was made to come on Friday and then I did Saturday voluntarily, I work in Holborn for Christs sake.  2 or 3 times a week I rode that piccadilly line train, my best friend too.  Basically anytime I leave the house late in the morning I get to Holborn at about 9:03.  It freaked me out a little, I got the early train that gets me to work at 8:45 cause I'd been taking the piss a bit.

I thought that ban was a little insulting, but I did read that it didn't necessarily come from the top.

Still at least it looks like the bastards are all dead and the people who helped them are going to get caught.  

When I went to work on Friday, the moron next to me was reading the evening standard talking about how this is cause we failed to "secure our borders", I'm not really suprised that it turned out to be people born here. - I didn't expect them to be suicide bombers though, in a way it would be good if the governemnt refused to release their names, mabye they could be wankers 1 thru 4.

I'm usually quite cynical, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt about all these alerts and stuff at the moment.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Anyone seen the werenotafraid website?

were not afraid

1939

2005Not much changed since then . Still we stand united.

Great site. Still digging trough.

Anyways, You remember the press reactions posted earlier?

Iranian national TV broadcast:

Quote[/b] ]7/8/2005  (Clip No. 747 )

Terror in London (6) - Tehran Sermon: The US and Israel are the Father and Mother of Al-Qaeda; The Preacher Condemns London Attacks and the Crowd Cheers "Death to England"

The following are excerpts from a Friday sermon at Tehran University by Ayatollah Mohammad Amami-Kashani, which aired on Iranian TV Channel 1 on July 8, 2005

Kashani: Regarding the bombing incidents in London, the Islamic Republic and the foreign ministry have expressed their position and condemned them. The entire Iranian people condemns this. Massacring women, children, old and young is entirely inappropriate for a human being, and cannot be accepted by anyone with a conscience. Iran has expressed its people's solidarity with the survivors of these incidents in London.

You speak of terror and Al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who the mother and father of Al-Qaeda are? America is its father, and Israel its mother. It is the illegitimate child of these powers. You yourselves have brought it about...

Crowd:Allah Akbar. Allah Akbar. Allah Akbar. Khamenei is the leader. Death to those who reject the rule of the jurisprudent. Death to America. Death to England. Death to the hypocrites (Mojahedin-e Khalq) and Saddam. Death to Israel.

Kashani: You yourselves have brought it about, and you have done so in the name of Islam. Thus, the child, whose father is the arrogance of the White House, and whose mother is the executioners of Israel, and who you have named "Islam" – is known to all. The reason he was named this way is clear, as is your true nature. You brought (Al-Qaeda) about in order to bring calamity to our lives, but, thank God, it has brought calamity to yours.

Source: http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=747 (Text)

Video clip: http://www.memritv.org/

Let's hope for Iran to get better.

On whose side is Iran anyway if they broadcast that on national TV?

[Bordoy 0]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1188898,00.html

Quote[/b] ]EXPLOSIVES FOUND IN CAR

Explosives have been found in a car identified by police as being linked to last Thursday's London terror attacks.

Police evacuated Luton railway station after being alerted to the suspicious vehicle this afternoon

Four controlled explosions were carried out on the car after a 100-yard cordon was placed around the station and its car park.

Meanwhile, detectives later identified a second suspect car in Leighton Buzzard, Bedfordshire.

Police were alerted to the Luton car after a member of the public reported seeing four men getting out of it on Thursday morning.

It had not moved since.

Trains were prevented from passing through Luton while the security operation continued.

The station closure hit services operated by two passenger train companies - Thameslink and Midland Mainline.

Hopefully the car is registered in someones name so they can be tracked down somewhere.

[Panda-PL- 0]

Hopefully the car is registered in someones name so they can be tracked down somewhere.

The car used in first WTC strike was rented.

The terrorers felt as careless as to come to the rental after the bombing and demanded their cauction to be returned, because the car's been stolen.

I'm affraid that theese ones were smarter then this.

As for the bombers I think that they were used (option 2), because survivours from the blast recall a man manipulating inside his backpack. If they were suiciders they wouldn't carry explosives in bags, but they'd wear "shahids' belts" instead.

[kerosene 0]

I thought they said on the news that the police say the people who did it are dead. The guy on the bus may have killed himself accidentally because the bomb went off at chest level.

That was on BBC 24.

[Pathy 0]

I dont know, they dont necessarily need to wear the belts, i expect they did whatever they needed to suceed.

[Bernadotte 0]

I dont know, they dont necessarily need to wear the belts, i expect they did whatever they needed to suceed.

...Backpacks rather than belts, I suspect.  And for the time being, anyone will be able to disrupt a European transit system for the cost of a backpack stuffed with rubbish and left unattended.   The impact/implementation cost ratio of such bogus acts is extremely high.

Like I said before, this ain't about body counts.  The Madrid train station bombings killed about 4 times as many, but the overall cost of disruption to the public and businesses was far less.  The London bombings have even affected schedules of projects I'm working on more than 1000 km away from the UK.  

Btw, my first night ever in London was disturbed by an IRA bomb exploding down the street in a rubbish bin.  The next day, I found myself unable to carry two heavy suitcases up the stairs out of an old underground station so I made 2 trips.  In the 90 seconds it took me to go back for the second suitcase a small aggitated crowd had gathered around it.  Post all the WereNotAfraid websites you like, but this is the real cost of living with terrorism.

[denoir 0]

Never attribute to malice what you can explain with incompetence.

Your theory Bernadotte has one significant flaw - the bombs detonated more or less simultaneously and were on board moving vehicles. While having some control where the bomb is detonated would have been possible in Berlin, it would certainly not in the London tube. Had they been detonated at separate times, then possibly - but hardly when they were detonated at the same time. Furthermore, if they wanted to do damage to the infrastructure, they would have not wasted energy on blowing up a bus. In addition, the explosives used in the subway didn't do any signficant damage to the tunnels. AFIK it's all up and running again.

The relatively low body count can more likely be attributed to luck (chance) and incompetence on the side of the terrorists.

[Bernadotte 0]

Never attribute to malice what you can explain with incompetence.

Never overestimate the competence of your enemy??  I disagree.

Your theory Bernadotte has one significant flaw - the bombs detonated more or less simultaneously and were on board moving vehicles. While having some control where the bomb is detonated would have been possible in Berlin, it would certainly not in the London tube. Had they been detonated at separate times, then possibly - but hardly when they were detonated at the same time.

But according to the Telegraph:

Quote[/b] ]Four suicide bombers, at least three of them British, were responsible for the explosions that killed more than 50 people in London, senior security sources said last night.

If this is true then they probably had a great deal of control over when/where the bombs were detonated.

Furthermore, if they wanted to do damage to the infrastructure, they would have not wasted energy on blowing up a bus.

But according to the SF Chronicle:

Quote[/b] ]Some bus passengers who survived the blast reported seeing an agitated man rummaging in a rucksack.  Terrorism experts have suggested for days that the bus attacker may have died in the blast he set off.  Police believe the three Underground trains were targeted by attackers who placed explosives with timers on board and then got off. Those bombs detonated within a minute of each other, but the No. 30 bus did not explode until nearly an hour later, leading many to suggest it might not have been the intended target.

In addition, the explosives used in the subway didn't do any signficant damage to the tunnels.

But according to the Baltimore Sun:

Quote[/b] ]The tunnel was made unsafe, they said, by damage from the bomb blast there.

AFIK it's all up and running again.

But according to the NYT it's difficult to imagine the following section up and running any time soon:

Quote[/b] ]LONDON, July 10 - The subway tunnel between King's Cross and Russell Square is one of several "deep tubes" bored through London's bedrock and clay more than a century ago: 70 feet down, 12 feet in diameter and reinforced with iron rings, the single-track tunnel's walls have just inches of clearance for trains.

On Thursday, the tunnel contained and intensified the impact of a bomb containing about 10 pounds of high explosives, sending its force punching through the cars like a blast down the barrel of a shotgun. It was the deadliest of the four bomb blasts in London last week.

In the days since then, dozens of recovery workers in heavy, white protective suits have gone in time and again, entering a nightmarish scene of mangled remains, twisted metal and hellish temperatures - and even an infestation of aggressive rats. Crammed tight against the walls and wreckage, the men have crawled carefully, inches at a time, to avoid disturbing evidence while they try to recover body parts.

By late Sunday, they pulled out the last of the visible remains of the 49 people known to have died in the bombings. But even then their job was not finished. The police say more remains might be obscured, because some people may have been blown out the front of the train and then run over as it skidded to a halt.

"We have taken out all of the bodies we can see," Deputy Chief Constable Andy Trotter of the British Transport Police said during an interview outside King's Cross station, "but given that the blast was downward as well as sideways, there could still be bodies underneath the train."

Above ground, the Salvation Army and other groups keep watch for the workers as they emerge, looking for signs of stress and grief and offering help. And as the job has stretched on, many of the workers have been ordered to take time out for counseling, preparing them for the strain of going back down.

The tunnel has made the recovery work far more difficult than at the other blast sites, in the shallower subway lines built as broad trenches and then covered over. Recovery workers are now trying to crawl under the cars from a smaller tunnel opening beside the train.

The bomb exploded in the lead car moments after the train pulled out of the King's Cross station and headed south toward Russell Square, blowing apart the car and making it impossible to reach the dead and wounded from the rear. Recovery teams have had to work from the Russell Square station, ferrying people and equipment in and human remains out more than a third of a mile on a battery-operated trolley recently built for use in the tunnels in case of a chemical attack.

At least 21 people died on the train, which was packed with about 1,000 passengers. The last of those bodies was taken out of the Russell Square station entrance behind the British Museum late Sunday and driven away in a large white truck marked "Recovery." Large screens of plastic sheeting, at either end of the block where the recovery teams work, shield the site from public view.

Mr. Trotter, the deputy chief constable of the transport police, said one thing hampering the recovery was the heat and stillness of the air. Temperatures are still around 120 degrees, kept hot by intense lights, heavy equipment and lingering heat from the blast. The tunnel has been sealed at either end of the accident site to stop the stench from the bodies from leaking into the other subway lines that meet at King's Cross station.

"No natural air is getting to them," he said, adding that the crews working in the tunnel were wearing heavy boots, gloves, helmets as well as face masks because of the risk of asbestos particles in the air from the train's brakes. Environmental specialists are monitoring the air to ensure it is safe for the recovery teams. "It's very hot and very dusty and extremely grim," he said.

The police located 21 bodies in the car within hours of the blast, but the difficulty in reaching them without disturbing possible forensic evidence has slowed their removal. He said dozens of body recovery experts and forensic specialists were involved in the operation, taking swabs for explosives residue and poring over the wreckage for scraps of bomb parts before removing bodies.

One transit official who asked not to be identified said that the tunnel, which is below the water table, was damp and infested with rats, adding to the awfulness of the scene.

[philcommando 0]

Who is the father and mother of Al Queers?

Back in the 1980s during soviet invasion of afganistan, the goat farmers cried out for international help. The west offered help as best as they could rather than to take on nuclear power USSR. More would have died if so. But to turn a blind eye to these goat famers would be inhumane.

The Middle East countries at the time only knew how to hypocritically blame and condemn everyone including the west for not helping while they themselves lifted not a finger.Despite being being labelled as infidels, no better than ants, the world offered and spent billions on the peace table in air condition palaces as well as defensive arms in hot desert lands as more afghans died when peace talks dragged on for 10 long years.

When the war was over, the west acted responsibly to call back its arms, but not many honourably did and instead, turn its barrel at the mouth that charitably fed them.

While there may be no denying the west was mother and father to Al Queers and loved their sons hoping that they may grow up in peace and hope for freedom of the world, the hypocrite mullahs and their holy book twisting interpretations were Al Queers' teachers, sheltering them and influencing them on a path of hate and destruction to kill their parents who had loved and succor them in their youthful hour of need.

So now Iran mulluhs, the greatest influence there, in a university no less where the future of the young is taught, want and bray for our blood? Is no one going to stop and correct their misconception, or is it too late to change a mindset hellbent to see us 'infidels' all dead?