War against terror

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]First, nobody neutral knows and tell the truth about happening inside Guantanamo.

If one supposedly live in an open society one should expect to know atleast something.

Quote[/b] ]Second, these ex-talibans, afghan or foreigners, after having be "gently" programmed by the religious Talibans (it can't be, Occident is so corrupted !!), do you really think they tell more the truth in this new kind of war, where information is another weapon to get new troops ? (same point for Bush's administration). Don't be so naive !

I don't know if Taliban was very corrupted. I'd rather say it worked well according to their own principles. It was strict and twisted, but not corrupt as the regime they preceded. The bush administration is indeed very corrupt. Secondly, don't discard the fact that people believe in their cause. It doesn't imply that you are supposed to believe in it but they have certainly proved their case by blowing up WTC (Al Qaida that is) .

Quote[/b] ]Third, unconventionnal enemy has to be fought through unconventionnal means. If you are yourself cought by talibans or AQ porks, don't count on Geneva's treaty. Unconventionnal means does not mean torture, I mean ways to isolate terrorisms, not invading a country without international legitimacy, looking for supposed government and AQ group relationship, and WMD that could be used against us.

I agree you have to fight terrorism with unconventional means - but not to a point where you abolish the very principles your own democracy are built upon. How can you claim to have democratic ideals when you deny other people the very same rights.

Quote[/b] ]Fourth, they are no more humans for me. I do care more about the ants' lot than theirs. Were we talking about supposed "pious" cow dung ?

............They are not true and pious muslims. Muslims I know are far smarter and kinder than those shitheads !!

This sounds familiar - I believe your country (France? ) was invaded by people with the same respect for human beings.

[miles teg 1]

First of all, why do you assume he is a liar?

Why do these prisoners not have access to the Red Cross?

Also why do you assume all Muslims are the same?

The Taliban for the most part were just uneducated fools who thought they were being good Muslims. All they know growing up is war and how to fight. That's a big part of Afghan culture and sadly it gets mixed up with their religious beliefs.

Personally I do not know whether this guy is lying or telling the truth. But if he's telling the truth, it is very sad. These prisoners could easily be rehabilitated by good Muslims who could visit the camp and set up some Qu'ran and Hadith classes along with educational coarses in world cultures, languages, and in other religions.

But if they've been brutalized badly it may be too late for that.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Acecombat 0]

Wtf are you ranting about SPQR havent you heard of innocent until proven guilty the americans bought them from sellers out there these guys were sold to them by NA or Pakistani wanna get richer by selling uncle sam some unknown guy with a beard.

I've had enough of this shit already if i had a beard and was in afghanistan at that time those son of .... would have sold m too to these pricks. If they are guilty why arent they charged ? If they areguilty why are they being released. Please keep your right wingedness to yourself. I am no AQ fanboy but i also dont like discrimination of people on the basis of their physical similarities to a specific set of retards. So much for the principles of equality and bullshit , this is no longer about right or wrong its about whos got the biggest stick.

[bn880 5]

Hear hear...

[miles teg 1]

I agree. The intelligence on alot of the so called "Al-Qaeda" prisoners seems to be extremely shaky and vague and for sure many of them were picked up off the streets and held prisoner soley because they were Arab or a foreign Muslim in Afghanistan and with little or no other evidence to suggest they were working for Al-Qaeda.

If the Bush administraton had any sense they'd turn the Guantanamo camp into a big Islamic re-educaton camp geared towards rehabilitating and educating these people rather then just subjecting them to years of brutality until they commit suicide or die of so-called "natural causes".

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[SPQR 0]

Wearing a beard doesn't make you being a fundamentalist ready to blow the world.

Uneducation is not an excuse, and ideology, secular or religious under the command of educated people identified as wisemen and scholars, always lead to butchery. In Iraq, a hotel just seems to have been blown apart.

Germany and Nazism, France with Petain, Quissling in Norway, Stalin, Khomeny, AQ and their Taliban friends helped by the Pakistani secret services. Nowadays, they are still many nationalists roaming around the world, nazi-boys who still believe that Hitler was a great man, old nazis who didn't change their mind after the war, Iranian conservatives...

I'm not naive about mankind, that's all. Churchill used to say that Democracy is a bad political system, but the less worse of them.

I didn't write Taliban were corrupted. I just used their argument about Occident and its "crusaders". You consider Bush administration as heavily corrupted, but they consider themselves as the saviours of the free world (truly pompous).

Cancer in a body develops as a twisted evolution of cell development. Nobody does even think to respect this form of evolution that will lead the host's body to the death. It's the same problem for the Muslim community, victim of this form of cancer, as integrist fight to death unbelievers, crusaders and all those who don't apply to the integrist faith, including the Muslim community itself, while Americans and others, Jews, Christians, Animists, Muslims, Buddhists and so on, just want to live in peace their faith, and a happy life without fearing to be killed at the corner of the street.

Democratic ideals work well among people who may be different but who just want to live in peace, having friends, making experiences, increasing knowledge, having family,...

Do not even try to draw the sword with the tolerance argument, with the scarf story for example, before exactly knowing what I try to speak about. The US tolerance is fading, us Muslims are getting thanks to AQ fear a more and more difficult life, being rejected and their rights blown apart when trying to find a calm place to pray and live their faith. Just give me more time, and I could be able to find something twisted in any country, even in Norway. Arguing about the tolerance between Israelis and Palestinians, or about Saudi Arabia forbidding the installation of Christian praying place would be too easy and unfair.

Most invaders (troops) had family and just follow the orders through social pressure. During WW2, should French and Norwegian resistants not kill German soldiers while trying to free their country just because the enemy had a loving wife and children ? Comparing AQ&Salafists&Talibans with German is senseless.

I do not absolutely assume that this man coming from Guantanamo is a liar, I just have much doubts as I had when Bush administration speak about iraqian WMD and relationships with AQ just to invade a country and giving in the same time arguments to the extremists for finding new recruits, or when Aznar's government accused immediately ETA for the terrorist attack in Madrid.

The prisoners were not caught while being on vacation as tourists, with a camera hanging at their neck, but while being taken prisoner during the fights. Most were afghans, but many were foreigners coming from Africa, Asia, Middle East, Europe (France, GB,...), and even one Yankee (poor tourist, he was unlucky to go on vacation in Afghanistan with Air Taliban !!).

Were they uneducated ? No, that's a phantasm to think that "bad guys" are always uneducated people, victims of true "bad guys". The September 11th terrorists were scholars, not people unable to write their own name.

I never wrote the Muslims are all the same, a pure non-sense. Muslims are peaceful people and their Holy Book never said "kill them all and lets The Mighty God sort them out".

But, as a cancer, integrism develops, even targeting Muslims themselves, just because they don't belong to AQ and salafist faith & Power point of view and doctrine.

It's the same problem for most Palestinians and Israelis who would just like to live in peace, without fearing to be thrown out of their home by tanks or being disintegrated by human bombs... while extremists from both sides try to win the upper hand on the other. For all of us, the blood has always been red.

Talibans were never taught just to be good Muslims, but to be the keepers of a "true faith", as a long time before, some people fought for being the master race ideology, the blessed ones, and/or against innocent Jews identified, because of the urging need of an identified enemy, as the source of evil and economic exploitation in the industrial world. All these are true bullshit !

It's as easy to rehabilitate a man who is ready to die for a paradise and a bunch of houris as re-educating an enraged dog. If it were so easy, there would be not many extremists in the world.

The war against terrorism doesn't only imply secret services and police action. We have to be more ambitious and helpful towards the people in need, preventing AQ & salafists from recruiting and helping the others to develop the society THEY want to leave in peace (THEY not OURS point of view about happiness, creating supermarkets everywhere is not the solution !!), while the harder we strike, the stronger our fear grows, the easier for the enemy to spread.

NEVER underestimate an enemy...

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wearing a beard doesn't make you being a fundamentalist ready to blow the world.

Going by the Guantanamo US theory it does , i have read in TIMEs and other mags how theyve captured these people , it was through racial discrimination , anyone who the NA thought COULD be a taliban/arab was brought tagged and sent as a terrorist and partner of the taliban regime. This is what i was talking about and they way youve generalized it all that muslims should be ready to face such racism because of a few bunch of radicalist then i have to believe when a retarded mullah tells me that this is a war between Islam and christainity or whatever

Going by your previous post it would seem as if all morals and human rights have been lost for the muslims just because the action of a few ? if thats the case then i guess we should do the same for the nutty christain and KKK types if they do something against our religious rights then going by the same theory we should also just go up and persecute each and every potential white american or european just for the fun of it , for the sake of the old eye for an eye deal?

Is this low we are going to get ?

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]

Wearing a beard doesn't make you being a fundamentalist ready to blow the world.

Uneducation is not an excuse, and ideology, secular or religious under the command of educated people identified as wisemen and scholars, always lead to butchery. In Iraq, a hotel just seems to have been blown apart.

Um... please let me ask you, which "wisemen and scholars" are you refering to as butchers?  Please name me some Islamic scholars that you consider to be leaders of butchery.

Also please point to me your information showing that such "wisemen and scholars" are responsible for these bombings and attacks in Iraq.  

Quote[/b] ]

Germany and Nazism, France with Petain, Quissling in Norway, Stalin, Khomeny, AQ and their Taliban friends helped by the Pakistani secret services. Nowadays, they are still many nationalists roaming around the world, nazi-boys who still believe that Hitler was a great man, old nazis who didn't change their mind after the war, Iranian conservatives...

Ok...dude... one of the lamest arguements is comparing all the people you don't like to Nazi.  The only you mention that you can truly do that with is Stalin.  The Taliban was once supported by the US when they faught against the Soviet Union.   We gave them a hell of a lot of military training and support.  Khomeini's revolution was a reaction against the US backed tyrant (the Shah) who's regime was incredibly repressive and murdered thousands of people.  The current regime isn't much better, but they ain't Nazis.

You can't just simplify groups like these and just explain them all away as Nazis.  They evolved under different situations and for different reasons.  

 

Quote[/b] ]

I'm not naive about mankind, that's all. Churchill used to say that Democracy is a bad political system, but the less worse of them.

Naive?   Depends on how you define Naive. I think you need to do a bit more learning about Islam and the complexity of what is going on in the Middle East and America. But then again few American politicians understand what's going on.  

Quote[/b] ]

I didn't write Taliban were corrupted. I just used their argument about Occident and its "crusaders". You consider Bush administration as heavily corrupted, but they consider themselves as the saviours of the free world (truly pompous).

Uh dude... who are "they"?    The Taliban?  Dude, nobody is defending the practices of the Taliban.  Just that people like yourself like to lump all Muslims together under the banner of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.  I know you said that you don't do this but sometimes it sure sounds like it.

Quote[/b] ]

Cancer in a body develops as a twisted evolution of cell development. Nobody does even think to respect this form of evolution that will lead the host's body to the death. It's the same problem for the Muslim community, victim of this form of cancer, as integrist fight to death unbelievers, crusaders and all those who don't apply to the integrist faith, including the Muslim community itself, while Americans and others, Jews, Christians, Animists, Muslims, Buddhists and so on, just want to live in peace their faith, and a happy life without fearing to be killed at the corner of the street.

Really?  That's funny because I know alot of Christian fundamentalists who would LOVE to and kill every Muslim on this earth.

I'm sorry but you don't seem to know much about the Islamic community if you're basing all your opinions on what you see on the news.  Go out and talk to Muslims in your community if you have any there. They are a VERY diverse bunch. 

Certainly fundamentalism is a problem within the global Islamic community (the Uma), however the United States is only encouraging moderate Muslims to join the ranks of the militants by our blatant imperialism in Iraq and our fundamentalist Christian/Jewish driven support of Israel...something which really is a clear violation of the United States constitution.  

In the Middle East (and much of the non-Islamic world) the United States is seen as the biggest hypocrit in the world.  

We don't give Muslims around the world very good reasons to support the United States.  

Quote[/b] ]

Democratic ideals work well among people who may be different but who just want to live in peace, having friends, making experiences, increasing knowledge, having family,...

Democratic ideals don't mean crap in a society with tons of heavily armed factions with enough weaponry and outside support to wage guerilla war for decades and where they tend to vote with a Kalishnikov or a roadside bomb.

They also don't work in a society where tribalism and factionalism is heavily ingrained in the culture and where it was only suppressed by the immense brutality of Saddam Hussein.  

Iraq is not ready for democracy.   But I hope I am proven wrong.   What is happening now is a grand experiment, but so far I see it sharing the same fate as America's similar endeavors in the past that have almost all met with failure.

However it insures a health profit for our defense industries.

Quote[/b] ]

Do not even try to draw the sword with the tolerance argument, with the scarf story for example, before exactly knowing what I try to speak about. The US tolerance is fading, us Muslims are getting thanks to AQ fear a more and more difficult life, being rejected and their rights blown apart when trying to find a calm place to pray and live their faith.

Que?   Hmm... and guess what Muslim tolerance for America is fading rapidly as well as we bomb and shoot the shit out of Muslims around the world and take away more and more of their rights here in America.  

It's a lose-lose situation like a train wreck that you can see coming and everybody is just standing around waiting for it to happen or worse jeering and cheering both trains on to hit each other.

Quote[/b] ]

Just give me more time, and I could be able to find something twisted in any country, even in Norway. Arguing about the tolerance between Israelis and Palestinians, or about Saudi Arabia forbidding the installation of Christian praying place would be too easy and unfair.

True.  America has really dysfunctional and screwed up stuff here as well.

Quote[/b] ]

Most invaders (troops) had family and just follow the orders through social pressure. During WW2, should French and Norwegian resistants not kill German soldiers while trying to free their country just because the enemy had a loving wife and children ? Comparing AQ&Salafists&Talibans with German is senseless.

What the hell???   Isn't that what you just did at the beginning of your post?

Quote[/b] ]

I do not absolutely assume that this man coming from Guantanamo is a liar, I just have much doubts as I had when Bush administration speak about iraqian WMD and relationships with AQ just to invade a country and giving in the same time arguments to the extremists for finding new recruits, or when Aznar's government accused immediately ETA for the terrorist attack in Madrid.

That's fine, but you talked as if you KNEW he was a liar when in fact you don't know if he is or not.  Think about it...what made you come to the conclusion that he was lying?

Then think about why he was let go.  

Quote[/b] ]

The prisoners were not caught while being on vacation as tourists, with a camera hanging at their neck, but while being taken prisoner during the fights.

There are many reasons why they may have been there.  Many Al-Qaeda also go there simply to go fight in Chechnya against the Russian Army.   Others may have been there doing relief work.  This British guy said he simply was on the border region and his taxi took him accidentally into Afghanistan (If I remember his story correctly).   The borders are not marked with Pakistan so that is plausible that someone could get lost in that region.  

Also were they caught with weapons?  Don't Al-Qaeda and Taliban members usually have weapons?  Did he have contact numbers to known Al-Qaeda members?  Was he on any kind of Al-Qaeda roster at any of their training camps or on one of their many captured computers?

If all the answers are no, then you can't just label those released as being guity when there is not evidence to show that they were.    That's not what America stands for and the Bush administration is sadly making a mockery of American ideals and principles.  

Quote[/b] ]

Most were afghans, but many were foreigners coming from Africa, Asia, Middle East, Europe (France, GB,...), and even one Yankee (poor tourist, he was unlucky to go on vacation in Afghanistan with Air Taliban !!).

John Walker (the American) NEVER claimed to be a tourist and neither did all the other foreigners.  Many of the other foreigners ended up being known Islamic militants or involved with Islamic militant groups in their home countries.  

Quote[/b] ]  

Were they uneducated ? No, that's a phantasm to think that "bad guys" are always uneducated people, victims of true "bad guys". The September 11th terrorists were scholars, not people unable to write their own name.

Holy crap... who are you talking about now.  Iraqi militants or Al-Qaeda or the Taliban?   Look some are educated some aren't.  But the vast majority of Islamic militants are very poorly educated and come from impoverished (economically) regions.  

Also the 9/11 terrorists WERE NOT SCHOLARS!!!!!!!!! Where In THE HELL DID YOU GET THAT FROM???

Have you read their writings about Islam???  If so please tell me where they have been published.   Yes many of them were University students and a few had graduate degrees, but they were the cream of the crop of Al-Qaeda as they had to be smart enough to pull off such an elaborate attack.

But they were not scholars and thank God, they don't represent most Islamic militants otherwise we'd be in SERIOUS trouble!!!

Quote[/b] ]

I never wrote the Muslims are all the same, a pure non-sense.

Nah you just say that all terrorists are the same.

Quote[/b] ]

Muslims are peaceful people and their Holy Book never said "kill them all and lets The Mighty God sort them out".

But, as a cancer, integrism develops, even targeting Muslims themselves, just because they don't belong to AQ and salafist faith & Power point of view and doctrine.

Yeah and they know that, but we're not doing much to encourage moderate Muslims to do much about it.  You also have to understand the cultures of the Middle East and Islam to understand why they're not all chasing down and beating up these crazy militants (well actually they are in some countries).  

In the Middle East often such deaths are more often then not blamed on the CIA or Zionist terrorists because some Muslims refuse to believe that ANY fellow Muslim could ever kill purposefully their fellow Muslims so they think that it MUST be the CIA or Israelies behind it.  

You may laugh, but I've ran across that belief over and over again.   It is deeply ingrained in the popular cultures of the Middle East and even amongst some Muslims here in America.  

This is because in Islam it strictly prohibits Muslims from fighting other Muslims.  In reality however they were fighting each other as soon as the Prophet Mohammed died.  

Quote[/b] ]

It's the same problem for most Palestinians and Israelis who would just like to live in peace, without fearing to be thrown out of their home by tanks or being disintegrated by human bombs... while extremists from both sides try to win the upper hand on the other. For all of us, the blood has always been red.

Most Palistinians???   I would say most Palistinians want their land back and they are willing to die to get it.   Go anywhere in the Palistinian territories and ask the children what they want to grow up to be and almost all of them will say "Martyrs for Palestine!"   Meanwhile many Israelies do not want to give up one inch of dirt to the Palistinians.

Quote[/b] ]

Talibans were never taught just to be good Muslims, but to be the keepers of a "true faith", as a long time before, some people fought for being the master race ideology, the blessed ones, and/or against innocent Jews identified, because of the urging need of an identified enemy, as the source of evil and economic exploitation in the industrial world. All these are true bullshit !

There was rarely agreement in the Islamic Uma on what the "true faith" is accept during times when there were powerful and respected Calliphas.  The closest I've found to "true Islam" are amongst Sufi scholars who seem to truly grasp the "essence" of Islam and of what true Jihad is. But that is my own subjective belief and many Muslims hate Sufis as they see them as perverters of Islam because they only point out bad examples of Sufis and know nothing about modern Sufi scholars such as Fetullah Gulen. 

However I actually do agree with you that too often Middle Eastern Muslims use America and Israel as a convenient scape goat for all their problems in their own countries.

Quote[/b] ]

It's as easy to rehabilitate a man who is ready to die for a paradise and a bunch of houris as re-educating an enraged dog. If it were so easy, there would be not many extremists in the world.

Are you aware of anyone who has attempted to do this?  It has been successfully done with cult members here in the United States who believed similar things.  There is no reason why it wouldn't work in a controlled situation such as you have in a prison.  A prison is a perfect way to de-program cult members.  The key with Islamic militants is to expose them to more powerful and more truthful Islamic teachings to get them back on the right path.   There are some people who have had success with this in Yemen.

Quote[/b] ]

The war against terrorism doesn't only imply secret services and police action. We have to be more ambitious and helpful towards the people in need, preventing AQ & salafists from recruiting and helping the others to develop the society THEY want to leave in peace (THEY not OURS point of view about happiness, creating supermarkets everywhere is not the solution !!), while the harder we strike, the stronger our fear grows, the easier for the enemy to spread.

Um... right.  But it's way more complicated then that.  For that to happen, the American policy towards the Middle East would have to change dramatically.   I don't see this happening.  But who knows maybe it will if Kerry is elected President.

Quote[/b] ]

NEVER underestimate an enemy...

I don't see enemies.  I just see stupid people on both sides of this war on terror and I have never underestimated mankinds propensity for stupidity.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Acecombat 0]

Driver tried to hit 'Bin Laden'

The driver mistook a pedestrian for the al-Qaeda leader

A driver in Montpellier, France, has been convicted for trying to run over a pedestrian he mistook for fugitive al-Qaeda boss Osama Bin Laden.

A court gave the 35-year-old man - named as Pierre, a struggling artist - a three-month suspended sentence.

His victim ran from the oncoming car, escaping injury when the vehicle slammed into the side of the street.

"It wasn't Bin Laden," the driver's lawyer, David Mendel, said. "If it was, we would have won US$5 million."

Mastermind

Mr Mendel argued that his client had been the victim of a temporary hallucination, triggered by anxiety over the global terror threat.

In particular, said Mr Mendel, his client had been traumatised by media coverage of last week's train bombings in Madrid, which killed 200 commuters.

The bombings have been blamed on Islamic militants acting under the auspices of al-Qaeda.

The court in Montpellier also ordered the driver to seek counselling and to pay a fine of 500 euros (about $600).

US President George Bush has announced a bounty of $27m for Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born Islamist suspected of masterminding the 11 September 2001 attacks on New York and Washington.

[SPQR 0]

Fast answer, no time, I'll be back later...  

This Pierre has no excuse, it's an homicide try and he should be forbidden to drive for life (and other serious punishment and medic intensive care against psychosis)... stupidity is not an excuse

if my first reaction concern the driving licence, it's because, a few days ago, a man, considered by medics as not responsible and ill-minded, killed a pedestrian, was judged not responsible but was allowed to keep his driving licence . It ABSOLUTLY doesn't mean that a driving licence has more importance that any man's life, bearded or not, wearing a robe or naked under an empty beer barrel.

Now if this information was posted to put the stress on et prosecute against a supposed general french psychotic behaviour against bearded men, keep quite because I also have many interesting cards in hand...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

"war on teror" is the worst slogan I have heard since last wearing diapers (no I stopped quite a while ago   ) It is like saying "war on ambush". DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE at all and I am still thinking maybe they meant something else. And the problem is that this slogan makes one believe that a war can make you win. Eat this video and trust me war on teror must be tackled differently cause teror and ambush are basically the same!

§5)No posting of explicit images

[IceFire 0]

You need to be a member of some sort to view the video.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

sorry, will try to fix it   (sorry I am a member of the sister site maybe that is why)

§5)No posting of explicit images

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/03/21/bush.terror/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House is dismissing as a "red herring" charges from the administration's former counter-terrorism coordinator that President Bush has been more focused on Iraq than al Qaeda.

Richard Clarke detailed his allegations that Bush has done "a terrible job" battling terrorism during an interview Sunday night on CBS's "60 Minutes" and in a book to be published Monday.

A White House spokesman said Clarke is motivated by politics.

"He has chosen at this critical time, in the middle of a presidential campaign, to inject himself into the political debate," spokesman Dan Bartlett said. "And he has every right to do so. But in so doing, his judgments -- his actions, or the lack thereof -- should also come under scrutiny."

Clarke said he asked for a Cabinet-level meeting in January 2001, shortly after the president took office, to discuss the threat al Qaeda posed to the United States.

"That urgent memo wasn't acted on," Clarke told CBS. Instead, he said, administration officials were focused on issues such as missile defense and Iraq.

Clarke said Bush "probably" shares some of the blame for the attacks. He is scheduled to testify this week before the independent commission investigating 9/11.

reminds me of a little joke:

Now that George Bush is president elect, Whitehouse is breifing him on intelligence.

-David Letterman, after GWB got "elected"

[MLF 0]

Interesting read on the Philosopher of Islamic Terror

Click Me

[Placebo 29]

Albert that video was not acceptable under forum rules, I appreciate the point you were trying to make but that video crossed the line, if it were more graphic you know what the result would have been for your right to access the forums.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Sorry about that! I assumed that because no bodies were visible that this would NOT be explicit material. Wont happen again, promised!

[Placebo 29]

I would have filed that one under "carnage".

[toadlife 3]

A White House spokesman said Clarke is motivated by politics.

Suuuuure - The man who worked for Reagan, and Bush Sr. administrations is being motivated by politics.

The fact is, the man worked for Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations as the white house counter-terrorism coordinator. That's quite a diverse group of polictical spectrums for an alledged partisan to be working for. When Bush Jr. came in, he demoted to a staff level position (rather than cabinet level) and his access to the president was basically removed. Why? Who knows, but it seems Bush Jr. placed terrorism one notch down on the priority list when he stepped into office.

[EiZei 0]

Wonder how bushites will manage to spin this one.

[SpongeBob 0]

The fact is, the man worked for Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations as the white house counter-terrorism coordinator. That's quite a diverse group of polictical spectrums for an alledged partisan to be working for. When Bush Jr. came in, he demoted to a staff level position (rather than cabinet level) and his access to the president was basically removed. Why? Who knows, but it seems Bush Jr. placed terrorism one notch down on the priority list when he stepped into office.

Here's an interesting view on Clarke's past accomplishments.

Spam'Qaeda

[shinRaiden 0]

I think the eTerror is more up asia/europe's alley, Al'Jazeera took it on the chin pretty good. I heard he asked for half the Homeland security kingdom (#2 chair), got told no, and got all grumpy. Also, the rumor is that he'd move way up the food chain if his new mentor gets elected instead of Bush. Furthermore, his publisher and CBS (60 Minutes) are both 0w3nd by the same uber-corp.

[walker 0]

Hi SpongeBob

You should have read the links posted at the bottom. Your writers story was refuted in one bound by a simple link to a well researched historical piece by a reputable source by of all news outlets CNN.

Quote[/b] ]Berger attended only one of the briefings--the session that dealt with the threat posed to the U.S. by international terrorism, and especially by al-Qaeda. "I'm coming to this briefing," he says he told Rice, "to underscore how important I think this subject is." Later, alone in his office with Rice, Berger says he told her, "I believe that the Bush Administration will spend more time on terrorism generally, and on al-Qaeda specifically, than any other subject."

The terrorism briefing was delivered by Richard Clarke, a career bureaucrat who had served in the first Bush Administration and risen during the Clinton years to become the White House's point man on terrorism. As chair of the interagency Counter-Terrorism Security Group (CSG), Clarke was known as a bit of an obsessive--just the sort of person you want in a job of that kind. Since the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole in Yemen on Oct. 12, 2000--an attack that left 17 Americans dead--he had been working on an aggressive plan to take the fight to al-Qaeda. The result was a strategy paper that he had presented to Berger and the other national security "principals" on Dec. 20. But Berger and the principals decided to shelve the plan and let the next Administration take it up. With less than a month left in office, they did not think it appropriate to launch a major initiative against Osama bin Laden. "We would be handing [the Bush Administration] a war when they took office on Jan. 20," says a former senior Clinton aide. "That wasn't going to happen." Now it was up to Rice's team to consider what Clarke had put together.

Berger had left the room by the time Clarke, using a Powerpoint presentation, outlined his thinking to Rice. A senior Bush Administration official denies being handed a formal plan to take the offensive against al-Qaeda, and says Clarke's materials merely dealt with whether the new Administration should take "a more active approach" to the terrorist group. (Rice declined to comment, but through a spokeswoman said she recalled no briefing at which Berger was present.) Other senior officials from both the Clinton and Bush administrations, however, say that Clarke had a set of proposals to "roll back" al-Qaeda. In fact, the heading on Slide 14 of the Powerpoint presentation reads, "Response to al Qaeda: Roll back." Clarke's proposals called for the "breakup" of al-Qaeda cells and the arrest of their personnel. The financial support for its terrorist activities would be systematically attacked, its assets frozen, its funding from fake charities stopped. Nations where al-Qaeda was causing trouble--Uzbekistan, the Philippines, Yemen--would be given aid to fight the terrorists. Most important, Clarke wanted to see a dramatic increase in covert action in Afghanistan to "eliminate the sanctuary" where al-Qaeda had its terrorist training camps and bin Laden was being protected by the radical Islamic Taliban regime. The Taliban had come to power in 1996, bringing a sort of order to a nation that had been riven by bloody feuds between ethnic warlords since the Soviets had pulled out. Clarke supported a substantial increase in American support for the Northern Alliance, the last remaining resistance to the Taliban. That way, terrorists graduating from the training camps would have been forced to stay in Afghanistan, fighting (and dying) for the Taliban on the front lines. At the same time, the U.S. military would start planning for air strikes on the camps and for the introduction of special-operations forces into Afghanistan. The plan was estimated to cost "several hundreds of millions of dollars." In the words of a senior Bush Administration official, the proposals amounted to "everything we've done since 9/11."

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/time.history/

We should all read the article I am saving it for future use

SpongeBob always check your sources or they will continue to come back and bite you.  

Good research though thanks for the link that proved Clarke's unipeachable credentials.

Kind Regards Walker

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Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri, here is the "scholar", and bin Laden his spokeman (with financial funds)

Thanks MLF

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np, its a very interesting read although i disagree with him on a few points.