The four horseman of the apocalypse, now

[Major Fubar 0]

Eh, probably better if this doesn't turn into a religion vs. atheism debate...let's just leave it as those that want to believe will, and those that don't, won't

[Oligo 1]

Those that totaly diss the whole bible and Christianity, what do you say to the millions of people that have been healed and recived tremendous miracles?

There are two circustances in which I would not consider miraculous healing stories unreliable and therefore irrelevant:

1. If I personally was miraculously healed. It's easier to believe something, if it happens to yourself. It sort of eliminates the ugly business of lying on purpose. (Of course I admit that one could still be lying to oneself without knowing it, which is what I incidentally think that most of the healing stories and other miracle stories are all about.)

2. If I was presented with scientific observations (with instruments capable of recording) confirming that a miracle has happened. I'm not talking about dork doctors witnessing crap. I'm talking about taking an x-ray of a broken limb, having a miracle healer heal it and taking an x-ray afterwards. Preferably I would like to be the one taking the x-ray to eliminate the lying factor.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

I see

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Those that totaly diss the whole bible and Christianity, what do you say to the millions of people that have been healed and recived tremendous miracles?

Now im not talking about some Catholic saint 500 years ago. But Free Church parish today.

Lies. All that is needed is for 1 person to be miraculously healed in a controlled, verifiable setting, and that has never, ever happened.

[Placebo 29]

My Mum's faith kept her alive after my Dad died, that's all I need to know/believe about religion.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Actually many people have had miraculous recoveries deemed impossible by doctors in fairly controlled circumstances (hospital wards) apparently due to some great religious conviction or religious awakening(i would find particular examples but i really cant be bothered).

I believe it is perfectly possible to be cured by deep faith but there is no reason to think some divine being is responisible when a physiological link to the patients mental state manifesting a physical change is a quite plausible explaination (with, if i recall, some emerging scientific basis)

It is known that depression can and does lead to ill health, so why shouldnt a positive mental state lead to good health?

Further i believe a study recently showed that people with strong religious convictions generally have better health and greater feelings or well being with Buddhists topping the chart (from memory so i could be wrong).

Its obvious that people who happily live life (eg- christianity)

believing an immortal bearded guy watches over them and makes sure they live forever in heaven (provided they live like Ned Flanders) could have greater feelings of well being and perhaps better health than atheists who sullenly slog through cold empty lives as apes who became too intelligent for their own good and await the moment the brief flickering of their life is extinguished to eternal darkness with terrible dread.

Im quite liking Buddhism at the moment. Even if there is no cycle of birth and death and enlightenment is relative, acheiving happiness and wellbeing through contemplation of self and a detachment from material things seems positive.

Oh and im reading 'Good Omens' just now- great book (Sandman is the best-Neil Gaiman rocks)

[Harnu 0]

Quote[/b] ]USA of cousrse. "Was given" refers to Bushs belief that it his his god given right to start wars. He took the peace from the earth when he started the Iraq war.

So the entire planet is at war and nothing is peaceful since Bush decided to go agaisn't Iraq? Hows that work?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding all of you Euros in conversations

[sanctuary 19]

About the redundant "atheists versus religious people discussion" , nothing more to say that those lines.

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

About the apocalypse horseman subject , it leads always into false assumption to try to find some kind of date by using bible symbolism and adapt it to a personnal view

The reason is simple, someone said

"Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is"

That is why all "end of the world is near i have the date , i have the exact signs !" that you can hear from several sects or individuals are false.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Actually many people have had miraculous recoveries deemed impossible by doctors in fairly controlled circumstances (hospital wards) apparently due to some great religious conviction or religious awakening(i would find particular examples but i really cant be bothered).

I believe it is perfectly possible to be cured by deep faith but there is no reason to think some divine being is responisible when a physiological link to the patients mental state manifesting a physical change is a quite plausible explaination (with, if i recall, some emerging scientific basis)

It is known that depression can and does lead to ill health, so why shouldnt a positive mental state lead to good health?

Further i believe a study recently showed that people with strong religious convictions generally have better health and greater feelings or well being with Buddhists topping the chart (from memory so i could be wrong).

Its obvious that people who happily live life (eg- christianity)

believing an immortal bearded guy watches over them and makes sure they live forever in heaven (provided they live like Ned Flanders) could have greater feelings of well being and perhaps better health than atheists who sullenly slog through cold empty lives as apes who became too intelligent for their own good and await the moment the brief flickering of their life is extinguished to eternal darkness with terrible dread.

Im quite liking Buddhism at the moment. Even if there is no cycle of birth and death and enlightenment is relative, acheiving happiness and wellbeing through contemplation of self and a detachment from material things seems positive.

Oh and im reading 'Good Omens' just now- great book (Sandman is the best-Neil Gaiman rocks)

So basically it has nothing to do with religion at all, its just positive mental attitude.

I protest most violently at the slur on atheists, BTW. Theres nothing cold nor empty about life just because you dont believe in mythical figures / lies.

Is your life any worse since you stopped believing in the stork that brings babies? Or faeries at the bottom of the garden?

If anything, life becomes all the more precious and special when you realise you only have one shot at it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

*cough* existentialism. Probably the best thing to come out of France in 300 hundred years

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

When it comes to gods or afterlives i am an atheist ( or at least a highly skeptical agnostic) and my life is certainly precious to me, it being all i have or all i know i have, but equally it is worthless and i know that too.

Only fools care for myths if they do not express or seem to express some essential truth. Cast aside lies and you cast aside truth, then there is only being and non-being. Who can live without believing? Existence is an act of faith and knowledge is illusory.

Do you believe in quantum theory, do you believe they put men on the moon? Does believing in these things enrich your life (or the lives of most people)?

In 2000 years our present quantum theory may be an ancient myth and noone will care whether they put a man on the moon with a metal tube.

Life as an atheist is emptiness. We exist and then we do not , we have pleasure and then we do not, we fill our stomachs 80,000 times to have it emptied and then it is always empty. We spend a life filling our minds with knowledge and experience and then it is emptied. It is cold when our heart stops beating, it is dark when our mind stops working. The human race will come to an end and all our endevours will cease.

We can try to fill our minds with distractions from these facts, and fill our emptiness with our worldly desires, perhaps that helps explain the growth in atheist society of a desperate consumerist culture, but in the end ignorance is replaced either by knowledge of nothingness or nothingness itself. Thats atheism.

But i like to think of myself as a spiritual atheist, ill come back to you when i know what that really means.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Probably the best thing to come out of France in 300 hundred years"

Surely loose morals are better?

1. Loose morals

2. Existentialism

3. French kissing (when combined with 1)

4. Wine

5. Revolution (for Americans) OR Losing to us ( for the English, British, Germans assorted euros etc)

+Joan of arc (crazy hot babe who talked with god) -discuss

/\ see? this post is so not spam

[NurEinMensch 0]

Pratchett's take on Death and thee other horseman is priceless in his Discworld novels...I was lucky enough to get a novel signed by him a few years ago...

[...]

You got a book signed by him???

Lucky bastard.

I'd die happily if I had one!

[Wasrad 0]

Im going to be simple:

(Rev 6:1,2) Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say, as with a voice of thunder, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and its rider had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

The United States of America, easily.  He uses a bow, a long range weapon, sets forth to conquer wears a crown of victory.  

Al Queda, easily. The bow represent flying projectiles, such as airplanes. They started their world tour by attacking USA and went on waging war on the western world.

Quote[/b] ](Rev 6:3,4) When he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" And out came another horse, bright red; its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that men should slay one another; and he was given a great sword.

Al Quada/terrorism.  Further cross referencing would show that the sword is a sacrificial sword.  Note that its rider was given power to make men kill each other, 'was given' indicates God's permissive approval....."Allah Ackbar"....God Willing.  This red horse shows up where the white horse has been.

USA of cousrse. "Was given" refers to Bushs belief that it his his god given right to start wars. He took the peace from the earth when he started the Iraq war.

Quote[/b] ](Rev 6: 5,6) When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a black horse, and its rider had a balance in his hand; and I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; but do not harm oil and wine!"

To make more sense of this.....A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!

Communism, OBVIOUSLY.

Capitalism OBVIOUSLY. Pay as low as possible. Fixation with materialistic items.

Quote[/b] ](Rev 6:7,8)When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" And I saw, and behold, a pale horse, and its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him; and they were given power over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

The Baath Party.  They killed for no real reason, with their weapons, which they had to aqquire by making their people  starve, famine and sickness, and by pestilince, sicknes and plague, ANTHRAX and even to the wild animals that they owned.

China of course. It holds about 1/4 of the world population. Their 'cultural revolution' killed caused a famine that killed roughly 30 million people. They're no strangers to weapons and war. And "wild animals" refers to the dragon which is the traditional Chinese symbol.

Now let's start a war over this and continue the good human  tradition of irrational religious hysteria.

This is what I am looking for here....opposing views that make sense....

Al Queda, easily. The bow represent flying projectiles, such as airplanes. They started their world tour by attacking USA and went on waging war on the western world.

The arrow, I think, would represent the actual projectiles. Also, Al Queda, last time I check, isnt wearing a crown of victory.

USA of cousrse. "Was given" refers to Bushs belief that it his his god given right to start wars. He took the peace from the earth when he started the Iraq war.

Bush didnt actually proclaim that "God" has given permission to kill, unlike Al Queda. Also, lets not forget that the weapon carried, the machaira, was that of sacrifice.

Capitalism OBVIOUSLY. Pay as low as possible. Fixation with materialistic items.

I can see that but Capitalism doesnt cause famine like communism has. Well, in its way it has, I guess, but that is a COMPLETELY different discussion.

China of course. It holds about 1/4 of the world population. Their 'cultural revolution' killed caused a famine that killed roughly 30 million people. They're no strangers to weapons and war. And "wild animals" refers to the dragon which is the traditional Chinese symbol.

Good point. I am going to look further into this. The 1/4 of the worlds population is a good factor but who is to say that the Baath party, when you actually get into the dirty global politics of it all, didnt have 1/4 of the world under their power?

Now let's start a war over this and continue the good human tradition of irrational religious hysteria.

That is exactly what I dont want to happen.

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

Those that totaly diss the whole bible and Christianity, what do you say to the millions of people that have been healed and recived tremendous miracles?

Now im not talking about some Catholic saint 500 years ago. But Free Church parish today.

Lies.  All that is needed is for 1 person to be miraculously healed in a controlled, verifiable setting, and that has never, ever happened.

So if a person has been deaf his whole life. Goes to a meeting, is healed and can hear perfectly well afterwards it's, according to you nonsense?

[Tovarish 0]

atheists who sullenly slog through cold empty lives as apes who became too intelligent for their own good and await the moment the brief flickering of their life is extinguished to eternal darkness with terrible dread.

I don't come on here and rave about Bible thumping Jesus freaks who acredit anything good that happens to them to God and when the shit hits the fan "God works in mysterious ways", and who's clergy seems to need a "Tou Shall Not Sodomize Young Boys" Amendment to the 10 commandments, so I would appreciate the same sort of courtesy from you.

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span> Ok...so now I hear you calling yourself a "Spiritual atheist" and you've totally confused me ...ummmm....yeah.

[Wasrad 0]

Those that totaly diss the whole bible and Christianity, what do you say to the millions of people that have been healed and recived tremendous miracles?

Now im not talking about some Catholic saint 500 years ago. But Free Church parish today.

Lies.  All that is needed is for 1 person to be miraculously healed in a controlled, verifiable setting, and that has never, ever happened.

So if a person has been deaf his whole life. Goes to a meeting, is healed and can hear perfectly well afterwards it's, according to you nonsense?

I survived ingesting well over a cup of antifreeze when I was 19, without having my stomahc pumped.

I think thats pretty damn miraculous!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Tovarish-

Quote[/b] ]Ok...so now I hear you calling yourself a "Spiritual atheist" and you've totally confused me ...ummmm....yeah.

Call me a Jedi and ill leave it at that

[Wasrad 0]

lol @ the comic, Tovarish

[Wasrad 0]

Tovarish-

Quote[/b] ]Ok...so now I hear you calling yourself a "Spiritual atheist" and you've totally confused me  ...ummmm....yeah.

Call me a Jedi and ill leave it at that  

You sexy Jedi, you. Can I take you home and do nasty things to you?

[toadeater 0]

[Wasrad 0]

What if it gets past the space pig?

NOTHING GETS PAST THE SPACE PIG!

[toadeater 0]

What if it gets past the space pig?

NOTHING GETS PAST THE SPACE PIG!

On the contrary, the defense doesn't work AT ALL. Run for your lives!!!!!!!!!

[Wasrad 0]

What part of NOTHING GETS PAST THE SPACE PIG! can you not seem to comprehend?!?!?!?

[Tovarish 0]

Tovarish-

Quote[/b] ]Ok...so now I hear you calling yourself a "Spiritual atheist" and you've totally confused me  ...ummmm....yeah.

Call me a Jedi and ill leave it at that  

Wait, let me get this straight....because you want to believe in a supernatural being that cares about you but haven't quite settled on exactly who/what, you think your life is fuller than that of those who've given up on the concept alltogether?....allrighty.....Anyways i think I'll leave this one alone, religious discussions lead to holy flamewars and locked threads.