The Iraq Thread 2

[denoir 0]

History in a flash.

That's nice little propaganda. I'm sure that everybody agrees that less nukes in the world is better, but that hardly justifies attacking without provocation another country.

The international rules exist for a very good reason: everybody thinks that they are the good guys and that their actions are justified. Do you really think that Saddam Hussein considered his cause unjust and thought that he was the "bad guy"? Do you think that Truman thought of himself as a monster when he dropped the nukes on Japan? What do you think Stalin thought of himself? Do you think that Sharon considers himself being a war criminal?

The answer to all those is obviously "no". And to prevent us from descending into anarchy with everybody settling their differences of opinion with war, we have this little thing called "international law". When you violate that, regardless if your name is Hussein, Bush or Begin, you undermine world stability. And that is inexcusable.

Furthermore, the danger of pre-emptive strikes is also that unfortunately, none of us can predict the future. If you want a good example of it, look at the current Iraq situation. From being a very contained, insignificant factor, now Iraq is becoming, as Putin put it, a new Afghanistan. Muslim fundamentalists and terrorists are pouring into the country effectivly making the situation much worse than it ever was. Etc.

[Acecombat 0]

I believe we should take it to the Mide east thread shouldnt we?

And name-calling me a Taliban housewife or cat wont get you goaded me in to arguing in circles over this issue

[denoir 0]

Take it off line and PM me, as it's obvious that you're as blinkered as a Taliban housewife.

No, take it in the Mid East thread. I for one am interested what you have to say as you both are from the region and have opposing views. Of course, having a bit more of a constructive tone might facilitate things

[theavonlady 2]

History in a flash.

That's nice little propaganda. I'm sure that everybody agrees that less nukes in the world is better, but that hardly justifies attacking without provocation another country.

Read and learn

And maybe say thank you, too.

Ingrates.

[theavonlady 2]

And name-calling me a Taliban housewife or cat wont get you goaded me in to arguing in circles over this issue  

A drop in the bucket compared to your slandering my people.

[Acecombat 0]

And name-calling me a Taliban housewife or cat wont get you goaded me in to arguing in circles over this issue  

A drop in the bucket compared to your slandering my people.

Please quote me where i have said anything so rabid about Israelis thats pissed you off

If i have then i will apologize for it but so far i know i havent said and neither will i stoop that low.

[denoir 0]

History in a flash.

That's nice little propaganda. I'm sure that everybody agrees that less nukes in the world is better, but that hardly justifies attacking without provocation another country.

Read and learn

And maybe say thank you, too.

Ingrates.

I know the background and did you read the rest of my post? Regardless of what you thought you were achieving it doesn't justify going outside the boundary of international law, for the reasons that I posted in the previous post.

If you had convinced Saddam through diplomacy to abandon it, then I would have said "thank you". Or if you had abandoned your own nuclear weapons program.

What I can't understand is how blind you right-wingers can be to the fact that there is no absolute "rights" and "wrongs". What country A percieves as wrong, country A percieves as right. The only option is to all together agree on a set of general rules that apply to all and that all can live with. That's the point of reference needed, not each country acting according to its wishes. If you do that, you're no better than Saddam.

[theavonlady 2]

And name-calling me a Taliban housewife or cat wont get you goaded me in to arguing in circles over this issue  

A drop in the bucket compared to your slandering my people.

Please quote me where i have said anything so rabid about Israelis thats pissed you off  

If i have then i will apologize for it but so far i know i havent said and neither will i stoop that low.

It is truly amazing how brazenly insensitive you are. Here's the quote:

Quote[/b] ]it seems that Hitler did leave a mark after all

[Acecombat 0]

I had meant that in terms of ruling someone whos under your boundaries and not as a personal attribute that each and every Israeli carries , since there are good people there too like the IAF pilots who recently condemned the I govt.

And Avon according to your theory of destroying everything that id EVEN the SLIGHTEST bit of a danger to you is pretty sad you know.

I mean why not go up against the whole Arab nations dont you think they could be a threat to your country in the future just like the reactor?

And i guess that also means that Pakistan and India ought to have a go at each others reactors too?

[denoir 0]

If i have then i will apologize for it but so far i know i havent said and neither will i stoop that low.

I

t is truly amazing how brazenly insensitive you are. Here's the quote:

Quote[/b] ]it seems that Hitler did leave a mark after all

It's a valid observation, but it more belongs in the ME thread. One would expect that that a country built by holocaust survivers, who know first hand what being oppressed means, would have some form of empathy for others in that position. While what Israel does to the Palestinians isn't directly comparable to what Hitler did to the Jews, it's still fairly brutal oppression.

So, as I interpret Acecombat's comment is: After WW2, instead of embracing the universal implications of genocide and oppressions, Israel focused that it would not let this happen to its people, at any cost. Even if it meant oppressing people and violating international law.

Which is too bad. During WW2 genocide was comitted against the Jewish people. In 1994 it happened in Rwanda. The holocaust was unfortunately not a unique event - it can happen again to other people. And therefor the principles for preventing it should be universal, not just about protecting your own behind.

[Acecombat 0]

Ditto right on the mark denoir.

Thanks for clarifying my point

I believe i person can only learn from his mistakes rather then worsen them even more by making more similiar mistakes in the future.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Ok, enough of this.

Acecombat and Avon, two things.

1) Please take this debate to the MidEast thread, this is the Iraq thread

2) Please keep it civil, like denoir did for instance. Any more name calling and its 2 boxes and a week's worth of holiday.

[theavonlady 2]

If i have then i will apologize for it but so far i know i havent said and neither will i stoop that low.

I

t is truly amazing how brazenly insensitive you are. Here's the quote:

Quote[/b] ]it seems that Hitler did leave a mark after all

It's a valid observation, but it more belongs in the ME thread. One would expect that that a country built by holocaust survivers, who know first hand what being oppressed means, would have some form of empathy for others in that position. While what Israel does to the Palestinians isn't directly comparable to what Hitler did to the Jews, it's still fairly brutal oppression.

So, as I interpret Acecombat's comment is: After WW2, instead of embracing the universal implications of genocide and oppressions, Israel focused that it would not let this happen to its people, at any cost. Even if it meant oppressing people and violating international law.

Which is too bad. During WW2 genocide was comitted against the Jewish people. In 1994 it happened in Rwanda. The holocaust was unfortunately not a unique event - it can happen again to other people. And therefor the principles for preventing it should be universal, not just about protecting your own behind.

Funny how Israel is the one constantly threatened with annihilation by several of its neighbors, including the Palestinians, yet it's Israel who stands accused.

You're a typical example of why Israel distrusts the hipocrytes of Europe. A classic!

edit: Just saw Ex-Ronin's post after the above. I do not retract a word but I will cease to discuss this here.

[bn880 5]

However it seems every one and every nation wants to experience the mistakes first hand, of their own hand. Israel is experiencing what it's like to (I'd say be fascist but I guess it's not?) opress and slaughter Palestinians as the Germans did to Jews. And the US did a splendid job/mistake in Iraq it looks like, even though we have good record of WW2 and so forth.

Same goes with some ME and African nations who opress women, we have learend from that mistake if you will, they want to go on through with their mistakes until they decide enough is enough. And how many friends have you had who just had to try stupid things in their life and feel the consequences before they stopped with that for good? At least you right?

Pure human nature, translation: lack of understanding, little foresight due to lack of awareness

EDIT: Ok, just saw the post about Me thread etc.

[turms 0]

I find it quite weird and disturbing that Turkish troops are now coming to iraq,ecpecially in the northern part of Iraq. How will they fit in with the kurds?

[Acecombat 0]

I find it quite weird and disturbing that Turkish troops are now coming to iraq,ecpecially in the northern part of Iraq. How will they fit in with the kurds?

Dont you worry mate Mr.Bremmer has got it PAT down .

[ruff 102]

first they didnt want u.s. forces to attack from theyre country yet here they are sending theyre troops

i wouldnt be suprised if they declared the land theirs

since america's resources are far to exhausted for another war

arab countries seem to hate america and blame them for killing their brothers (iraq)

yet i most of the countires in the middle east are oppressed and have no freedom

e.g. saudi arabia wont even allow a church to be built

yet in palestine mosques are right next to our churches(thats our holy land)

in western countries, in fact in every country there are mosques

[The Frenchman 0]

Boy, this thread is depressing.

I know!

Click here

And it is on topic.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/09/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]PORTSMOUTH, New Hampshire (CNN) -- President Bush on Thursday marked six months since the collapse of Saddam Hussein's government by defending the U.S.-led invasion that toppled the Iraqi leader.

"There's only one decent and humane reaction to the fall of Saddam Hussein: Good riddance," Bush said in a speech to New Hampshire National Guard troops and reservists.

Baghdad fell to U.S. troops on April 9 and Bush declared an end to major combat in Iraq on May 1. U.S. Marines and Iraqis pulled down a statue of Saddam on April 9.

"I acted because I was not about the leave the security of the American people in the hands of a madman," Bush said. "I was not about to stand by and wait and trust in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein, so our coalition acted in one of the swiftest and most humane military campaigns in history -- and six months ago today, the statue of the dictator was pulled down."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/09/sprj.irq.diplomat/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A Spanish diplomat Thursday was shot and killed near his residence in the Iraqi capital, according to an eyewitness and the Spanish Foreign Ministry in Madrid.

Jose Antonio Bernal Gomez, 30, was a military attache who served in Iraq as liaison for the Spanish intelligence service, the National Intelligence Center.

A senior official from the intelligence center was headed from Madrid to Baghdad to bring home Bernal's remains, a Spanish Foreign Ministry spokesman told CNN.

he wasn't the first spaniard to die.

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld canceled a news conference Thursday in part to avoid questions about whether the White House recently reduced his role in Iraq's reconstruction, Pentagon and NATO officials said.

The White House said Monday it is creating an Iraq Stabilization Group to be headed by national security adviser Condoleezza Rice. The group will be responsible for handling the day-to-day administration of Iraq, a task previously handled by the Pentagon.

Rumsfeld was scheduled to brief reporters at a meeting of NATO defense ministers in Colorado. He was questioned at Wednesday's NATO press briefing about his relationship with Rice, a memo she circulated establishing the new Iraq Stabilization Group, and whether he was "in the loop."

[Longinius 1]

"in western countries, in fact in every country there are mosques"

Well, thats what you get in a democratic, open society. Unfair? Maybe. But that is the way it is. Unless someone declares another crusade and we outlaw Islam in our societys, of course. But I doubt the church is strong enough to pull that one off.

[Acecombat 0]

"in western countries, in fact in every country there are mosques"

Well, thats what you get in a democratic, open society. Unfair? Maybe. But that is the way it is. Unless someone declares another crusade and we outlaw Islam in our societys, of course. But I doubt the church is strong enough to pull that one off.

Do they allow it to call out the 'Azan' ?

Last democractic and One of the worlds biggest so called secular country i saw was demmolishing a mosque and killing and raping muslims

Go figure ... but its not America

[walker 0]

Do they allow it to call out the 'Azan' ?

Hi Acecombat

If that is the Muslim call to Prayer I have heard it at the mosques in London. I dont know if there are restrictions on time of day ie. you may not be alowed to use the loud speaker system after 11pm except on on special occasions Eaide perhaps. Ditto church bells.

I stand to be corrected but among Muslim countries I think only in Saudi Arabia are other religions prevented from being practiced. I have been to several other Muslim countries and it is not a problem. I think the list of Muslim countries that are intolerant of other religions is small. Iran is fairly tolerant ditto Pakistan, Turkey, Indonesia the country with the biggest Muslim majority population.

Any way religion is not important as an explanation of the world science is more effective. Religion's power over politics is on the wane through most of the world. It is a philosophy of life not a political instrument.

Kind Regards Walker

[ruff 102]

"in western countries, in fact in every country there are mosques"

Well, thats what you get in a democratic, open society. Unfair? Maybe. But that is the way it is. Unless someone declares another crusade and we outlaw Islam in our societys, of course. But I doubt the church is strong enough to pull that one off.

Do they allow it to call out the 'Azan' ?

Last democractic and One of the worlds biggest so called secular country i saw was demmolishing a mosque and killing and raping muslims  

Go figure ... but its not America  

palestinian militants hid on a our holy church where jesus was born

had guns and shot out from it!

u dont c that in a mosque

as for killing and raping muslims, the husseins were doin that

uday for that matter

not to mention honour killings

for the goodness sake honour killings?

and longinius

i dont c that unfair, i just want every country to allow n e religion to be practiced

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Hey, yeah, anyways- about Iraq. The Bush Administration is embarking on a "We were really right- really" Campaign. Here's a sneak peak:

Quote[/b] ]Cheney called the possibility of terrorists acquiring weapons of mass destruction "the ultimate nightmare" that "could bring devastation to our country on a scale we have never experienced. Instead of losing thousands of lives, we might lose tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of lives in a single day of horror. ...

"We must do everything in our power to keep terrorists from ever acquiring weapons of mass destruction."

I'm going to dress up as Dick Cheney for Halloween.

edit: I really wish you would send me that thesarus, Bn880, as it would make my job much easier

[Acecombat 0]

"in western countries, in fact in every country there are mosques"

Well, thats what you get in a democratic, open society. Unfair? Maybe. But that is the way it is. Unless someone declares another crusade and we outlaw Islam in our societys, of course. But I doubt the church is strong enough to pull that one off.

Do they allow it to call out the 'Azan' ?

Last democractic and One of the worlds biggest so called secular country i saw was demmolishing a mosque and killing and raping muslims  

Go figure ... but its not America  

palestinian militants hid on a our holy church where jesus was born

had guns and shot out from it!

u dont c that in a mosque

as for killing and raping muslims, the husseins were doin that

uday for that matter

not to mention honour killings

for the goodness sake honour killings?

and longinius

i dont c that unfair, i just want every country to allow n e religion to be practiced

Maybe you didnt read my post well enough ... re read it.

As for militants in a church so what? Is this the first time this happened on earth? Please do a recheckon history and you'll be amazed to see how manytimes places of worship havebeen targetted and used as hideouts and as retreats too. The militants didnt go and demolish the church did they? But in India the worlds largest secular democracy they brought down a whole Mosque by battering it in with hammers and chisels .... Way back in history if you go 2 jewish men were caught dressed and disguised as Muslim scholars digging a tunnel underneath the ground to dig-out Mohammeds body and probably desegregate(sp) it.

As for religions being practised evenly yes you are correct it should be , pity though that we have narrowminded people in here who wont allow it , even thouhg ISLAM itself allows it.

But tell me one thing will i be allowed to build a mosque in Vatican city?