The Iraq Thread 2

[theavonlady 2]

why don't the american people just rush the white house ,and cut bush's head ? that's what we would do here ........

It's been a long time. Can you show us all how again?

[ran 0]

why don't the american people just rush the white house ,and cut bush's head ? that's what we would do here ........

It's been a long time. Can you show us all how again?

naaaaah , there's no real reason yet . but well .. you never know

do you know the number of different republics we've had in france ? we're actually in the Fifth Republic , all the past ones have been blown away , generally because of the frenchmen's miscontentment (because of the royalists for the first republics too)

we've known revolutions , military coups , political mess and extremisms

the first republic ended up after the Terror when Naploeon messed around , after a second revolution , we got the republic back , that was the second republic , then , Louis Napoleon Bonaparte fucked us around and we've had another revolution  , the Republic was restablished for a second time , the 3rd republic , right after our defeat against the german in 1870 , this republic went on until the germans kicked our ass for the second time (WW2) , this 3rd republic ceased in 1940 , at the end of the war , we've had republic reestablished for the 3rd time , the 4th republic , which ceased due mainly to the lack of control on the troubles in algeria and a coup attempt , power was taken by De Gaulles who reestablished the republic for the fourth time , that is the 5th republic we're still in

and well .. revolution is just like biking , you never forget how to do it

-edit- : the french Constitution has been more or less modified by each republic

and btw , i had to do some searches over the internet since the french political history isn't my strong point

[theavonlady 2]

do you know the number of different republics we've had in france ? we're actually in the Fifth Republic , all the past ones have been blown away

Sounds like France is a living set of Rambo sequels.

[Schoeler 0]

Americans don't like being lied to, and we are all starting to see that this administration has done exactly that.  

So why don't people care about the WMD issue? Why is there not an open Congressional hearing into exactly how much they overstated their claims and how imaginatively they interpreted the intelligence?

52% approval rating? In Britain 46% demand that Blair should resign because of the pre-war lies. That's a bit stonger position than "not approving" Bush's actions.

The poll doesn't ask if Bush should resign or not, it asks if the respondent apporves or disapproves of the job he's doing. Who knows how those people feel about if he should resign. Iknow that ABC News reported that a large number of people are starting to consider this a failed Presidency.

Also no one has come right out and said there are no WMD yet. The government is still saying its possible. Watch what happens when it becomes definitive.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I know, we all hate those COPY-PASTE postings. And especially the realy long ones that the poster himself probably never read to the bottom line. But I assure you that the following is entertaining and even skipping a few lines is okay. Dont take it too seriously and start nodding or scratching you chin in confusion!  

AND FOR THE YOUNGER ONES: DONT TAKE THIS TOO SERIOUS WILL YA!

Germany (1930ies) & USA (2003)

What worries me is that we are imaging pre WWII Germany. The parallels are striking....

--lack of real political opposition (weak Weimar government--weak Democratic Party)

--consolidation of massive amounts of power without a clear mandate from the people (1932 election--2000 election)

--usurpation of leftist terminology to further a RW agenda (national socialism--compassionate conservatism)

--the use of propaganda (Goebbels--Rove, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, FoxNews, CNN)

--hatred of the French

--an appeasing British Prime Minister (Chamberlain--Blair)

--contempt for the international community (Hitler ignores the Treaty of Versailles--Bush ignores the ABM treaty and U.N. treaties on global warming, the international criminal court, landmines, chemical and biological weapons)

--hatred directed at leftists and other groups in opposition to the government (communists-- war protesters)

--hatred directed at minority groups (Jews--Arabs)

--weapons of mass destruction cited as a reason to invade other countries (Hitler claims that Poland could use poison gas against Germany--Bush claims Saddam Hussein could use poison gas against the U.S.)

--a terrorist attack on the country as the final catalyst for fascism (Reichstag fire -- 9/11 attacks)

--the merging of big business with government (Krupps -- Halliburton)

--extreme nationalism (Nazi flags everywhere--American flags everywhere)

--a culture that emphasizes the physical over the intellectual (Aryan *supermen*--American redneckism)

--leader worship (Hitler as Der Fuhrer--Bush as God's child)

--the creation of an internal security department (Gestapo--Department of Homeland Security)

--massive build-up of military and police forces (paramilitary SS dressed in black--paramilitary cops dressed in black)

--the use *lightning* warfare (blitzkrieg--shock and awe)

--easy military victories setting the stage for other conquests (Sudentenland--Poland and France, Iraq--Syria and Iran)

--eventual disastrous conflict with the Russians (WW2--Armageddon?)

The only real difference is that this time Jews are on the side of the fascists, and of course this crossover of Jews is the final nail in the coffin of the Democratic Party. There is no way Democrats can mount an effective opposition to Republican imperialism without taking on the Jewish neo-cons and the fascist Sharon government, and there is no way they're going to do that and risk alienating Jewish voters. In the end, whatever disasters may befall this country, it will be because the Democratic Party placed the feelings of 2% of American voters over the best interests of the U.S.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

part 2

Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this", and, "Hitler did that". But the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil actually done by the Third Reich, from the death camps to WW2 was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster.

The German people of the late 1930s imagined themselves to be brave. They saw themselves as the heroic Germans depicted by the Wagnerian Operas, the descendants of the fierce Germanic warriors who had hunted wild boar with nothing but spears and who had defeated three of Rome's mightiest legions in the Tuetenberg Forest.

But in truth, by the 1930s, the German people had become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery was both salve and slavery. Germans were required to behave as if they were brave, even when they were not.

It's easy to look back and realize what a jerk Hitler was. But at the time, Hitler looked pretty good to the German people, with the help of the media. He was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. The German people assumed they were safe from a tyrant. They lived in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government could and more importantly could not do. Their leader was a devoutly religious man, and had even sung with the boy's choir of a monastery in his youth.

The reality was that the German people, as individuals, had lost their courage. The German government preferred it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But the German people didn't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding individual courage, in the form of a government gone wrong, the German people simply pretended that the situation did not exist. And in that simple self-deception lay the ruin of an entire nation and the coming of the second World War.

When the Reichstag burned down, most Germans simply refused to believe suggestions that the fire had been staged by Hitler himself. They were afraid to. But so trapped were the Germans by their belief in their own bravery that they willed themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes, so that they could nod in agreement with Der Fuhrer while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoided the one situation which most required real courage; to stand up to Hitler's lies and deceptions.

When Hitler requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under German law, but powers Hitler claimed he needed to have to deal with the "terrorists", the German people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, agreed. The temporary powers were conferred, and once conferred lasted until Germany itself was destroyed.

When Hitler staged a phony invasion from Poland, the vast majority of the German people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to Hitler's deceptions, did not question why Poland would have done something so stupid, and found themselves in a war.

But Hitler knew he ruled a nation of cowards, and knew he had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards could fight and win. He decorated his troops with regalia to make them proud of themselves, further trapping them in their self-image. Hitler copied the parade regalia of ancient Rome, to remind the Germans of the defeat of the legions at the Tuetenberg Forest. Talismans were added from orthodox religions and the occult to fill the soldiers with delusions of mystical strengths and an afterlife if they fell in battle. Finally, knowing that it takes courage to kill the enemy face to face, Hitler spent vast sums of money on his wonder weapons, airplanes, submarines, ultra-long range artillery, the world's first cruise missile and the world's first guided missile, weapons that could be used to kill at a distance, so that those doing the killing need not have to face the reality of what they were doing.

The German people were lured into WW2 not because they were brave, but because they were cowards who wanted to be seen as brave, and found that shooting long range weapons at people they could not see took less courage than standing up to Hitler. Sent into battle by that false image of courage, the Germans were dependent on their wonder-weapons. When the wonder-weapons stopped working, the Germans lost the war.

I remember as a child listening to the stories of WW2 from my grandfather and my uncles who had served in Europe. I wondered how the German people could have been so stupid as to have ever elected Hitler dog catcher, let alone leader of the nation. Such is the clarity of historical hindsight. And with that clarity, I see the exact same mechanism that Hitler used at work here in this nation.

The American people imagine themselves to be brave. They see themselves as the heroic Americans depicted by Western Movies, the descendants of the fierce patriot warriors who had tamed the frontier and defeated the might of the British Empire.

But in truth, by the dawn of the third millennium, the American people have become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery is both salve and slavery. Americans are required to behave as if they are brave, even when they are not.

The American people assume they are safe. They live in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government can and more importantly cannot do. Their leader is a devoutly religious man.

The reality is that the American people, as individuals, have lost their courage. The government prefers it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But Americans don't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding courage, in the form of a government gone wrong, the American people simply pretend that the situation does not exist.

When the World Trade Towers collapsed, most Americans simply refused to believe suggestions that the attacks had been staged by parties working for the US Government itself. Americans were afraid to, even as news reports surfaced proving that the US Government had announced plans for the invasion of Afghanistan early in the year, plans into which the attacks on the World Trade Towers which angered the American people into support of the already-planned war fit entirely too conveniently. But so trapped are Americans by their belief in their own bravery that they will themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes, so that they can nod in agreement with the government while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoid the one situation which most requires real courage; to stand up to the government's lies and deceptions. The vast majority of the American people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to the government's deceptions, never question why Afghanistan would have done something so stupid as to attack the United States, and as a result, Americans find themselves in a war.

Now the US Government has requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under Constitutional law, but powers the government is claiming they need to have to deal with the "terrorists". The American people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, are agreeing. The temporary powers recently conferred will be no more temporary in America than they were in Germany.

The US Government knows they rule a nation of cowards. The government has had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards can fight. The government has decorated the troops with regalia to make them proud of themselves, further trapping them in their self-image. Talismans are added from orthodox religions and the occult to fill the soldiers with delusions of mystical strengths and an afterlife if they fall in battle. Finally, knowing that it takes courage to kill the enemy face to face, the United States government has spent vast sums of money on wonder weapons, airplanes, submarines, ultra-long range artillery, cruise missiles, and guided missiles, weapons that kill at a distance, so that those doing the killing need not have to face the reality of what they are doing.

As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celebrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes. Tyrants become obvious only when looking back, after what they have done becomes known. The German people did not stand up to Hitler because their media betrayed them, just as the American media is betraying the American people by willingly, voluntarily, even proudly, abandoning its traditional role as watchdog against government abuse.

It is the very nature of power that it attracts the sort of people who should not have it. The United States, as the world's last superpower, is a prize that attracts men and women willing to do absolutely anything to win that power, and hence are also willing to do absolutely anything with that power once they have it. If one thinks about it long enough, one will realize that all tyrants, past and most especially present, MUST use deception on their population to initiate a war. No citizen of a modern industrialized nation will send their children off to die in a war to grab another nation's resources and assets, yet resources and assets are what all wars are fought over. The nation that wishes to initiate a war of conquest must create the illusion of an attack or a threat to start a war, and must always give their population of cowards an excuse never to question that carefully crafted illusion.

It is naive, not to mention racist to assume that tyrants appear only in other nations and that somehow America is immune simply because we're Americans. America has escaped the clutches of a dictatorship thus far only through the efforts of those citizens who, unlike the Germans of the 1930s, have the moral courage to stand up and point out where the government is lying to the people. And unless more Americans are willing to have that kind of individual courage, then future generations may well look back on the American people with the same harshness of judgment with which we look back on the 1930s Germans.

[Schoeler 0]

Major flaws in the logic of this article:

Everyone likes to say, "Hitler did this", and, "Hitler did that". But the truth is Hitler did very little. He was a world class tyrant, but the evil actually done by the Third Reich, from the death camps to WW2 was all done by German citizens who were afraid to question if what they were told by their government was the truth or not, and who because they did not want to admit to themselves that they were afraid to question the government, refused to see the truth behind the Reichstag Fire, refused to see the invasion by Poland was a staged fake, and followed Hitler into national disaster.

True, Hitler wasn't wholly responsible for everything, but he was a madman, and he did plant the seeds and put the wrong people into the positions of power necessary for things to fall into place.

Quote[/b] ]The American people imagine themselves to be brave. They see themselves as the heroic Americans depicted by Western Movies, the descendants of the fierce patriot warriors who had tamed the frontier and defeated the might of the British Empire.

But in truth, by the dawn of the third millennium, the American people have become civilized and tamed, culturally obsessed with fine details in both science and society. Their self-image of bravery is both salve and slavery. Americans are required to behave as if they are brave, even when they are not.

Busllshit leftwing coffeehouse propaganda.  America and Americans do consider themselves brave, but it isn't even remotely parallel to the culture of Nazi Germany where the German people couldn't stand to lose face in the eyes of Europe or the world.  Americans are embarassed by their government all the time.  Besides, we try and use our bravery to help the rest of the world.  We try and spread democracy even to places that would rather not have it.  Thus we end up in messy places like Somalia, Haiti etc..  We, unlike Hitler, didn't invade to assume control.  We invaded to try and give them a better life.  Misguided yes, Machiavellian, no.  No one here is required to feel brave.  We are brave.  Look at all the brave men and women here who do take a stand and voice opposition to the government.  They fill the streets protesting and waving signs.  They show up at political rallies.  They ask embarassing questions and print exposing stories in media interviews.  That is all very, very, very different from the false bravery of the German people during the Third Reich.  Americans aren't interested at all in being the best Republicans we can be (as the Germans were in trying to be good little Nazis).  We are more than happy to be Democrats, Socialists, Independents, etc.. and to challenge the status quo.  Americans and the American political system thrives on dissonance.

Quote[/b] ]The American people assume they are safe. They live in a Republic, after all, with strict laws regarding what the government can and more importantly cannot do. Their leader is a devoutly religious man.

The reality is that the American people, as individuals, have lost their courage. The government prefers it that way as a fearful people are easier to rule than a courageous one. But Americans don't wish to lose their self-image of courage. So, when confronted with a situation demanding courage, in the form of a government gone wrong, the American people simply pretend that the situation does not exist.

Americans do not assume they are safe.  9-11 and our President's foreign policy have us all wondering when the next hit will occur and what form it will take.

As far as feeling safe from tyranny.  No, we don't feel safe in that way either.  We remain ever vigilant to protect our Constitution and the rights granted to us by it.  We have a difficult amending process in place to insure it can't be changed at the whim of any one administration.  Presidential terms last only four years, so that a tyrant can't gain control for very long.  Federalism and its checks and balances are alive and well in America.  Look how everyone reacted to the Patriot Act for an example.  There are a hell of a lot of Court challenges in the works in response to that.

Americans haven't lost their courage at all.  Thats a bunch of crap.  Wait until the election cycle gears up to see how much courage we've lost in responding to our government's actions.  We know we can kick a bad government out of office if we have to.  Besides, why do you think Americans refuse to do away with the 2nd Amendment?  Sure it was for keeping well regulated State militias, but our founders intended for those militias to be able to overthrow the federal government if it became tyrannical.  Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton didn't want a standing U.S. army.  They wanted citizen militias controlled by the States to serve as a firm check on federal power.  The federal army was supposed to be disbanded after every war.  Jefferson even said, " A little revolution is good for the soul now and again." Our whole political philosophy is founded on Locke's social contract theory. If the government doesn't uphold its obligations to the people, it is the right and duty of the citizens to overthrow it. More Americans own guns than any other body of citizens in the world, and we know it.  Whoever wrote this article has a rudimentary knowledge of the American political system, or, is conveniently overlooking and overstating things for propaganda purposes. Our government is us. It derives its power from our just consent.

Quote[/b] ]When the World Trade Towers collapsed, most Americans simply refused to believe suggestions that the attacks had been staged by parties working for the US Government itself. Americans were afraid to, even as news reports surfaced proving that the US Government had announced plans for the invasion of Afghanistan early in the year, plans into which the attacks on the World Trade Towers which angered the American people into support of the already-planned war fit entirely too conveniently. But so trapped are Americans by their belief in their own bravery that they will themselves to be blind to the evidence before their eyes, so that they can nod in agreement with the government while still imagining themselves to have courage, even as they avoid the one situation which most requires real courage; to stand up to the government's lies and deceptions. The vast majority of the American people, their own self-image dependant on continuing blindness to the government's deceptions, never question why Afghanistan would have done something so stupid as to attack the United States, and as a result, Americans find themselves in a war.

Americans didn't "simply" refuse to believe suggestions that the government orchestrated 9-11.  We saw them for what they were.  Nut-job tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.  How the hell could the government maintain a conspiracy of that magnitude in a free society?  We can't even keep it a secret that the last President was wetting his tootsie roll in the Oval office with an intern.  The whole thing about the U.S. creating 9-11 is that it conveniently ignores this little organization called Al-Qaeda and a man named Osama Bin Laden.  He and they attacked America more than once you know.  Afganistan didn't attack us, they simply backed the wrong friend.

Quote[/b] ]Now the US Government has requested temporary extraordinary powers, powers specifically banned under Constitutional law, but powers the government is claiming they need to have to deal with the "terrorists". The American people, having already sold their souls to their self-delusions, are agreeing. The temporary powers recently conferred will be no more temporary in America than they were in Germany.

This part of the article is the most overblown, ridiculous pathetic attempt at leftwing propaganda I've seen in a long time.  There is no parallel whatsoever between the U.S. government's asking for temporary extraordinary powers, and those of Hitler asking for them.  The Patriot Act allows for looser standards on wiretapping and tracking foreign nationals.  It allows for blanket wiretaps instead of calling for individual warrants.  That is being challenged too.  This is hardly suspending the democratic process or eliminating the federal structure of our government.  Bush hasn't named himself dictator for Christ's sake!  A totally fantastic and stupid analogy!    What other temporary and extraordinary powers have been asked for?

Quote[/b] ]The US Government knows they rule a nation of cowards.

My response to the author?  Fuck you buddy.  Come pay a visit to this nation of cowards or, just come see me.  You're going to be walking around awful funny when I take your snide attitude towards myself and my countrymen, roll it up into a ball, light it on fire and shove it right up your ass!

Quote[/b] ]The government has had to spend the money to make the new war something cowards can fight. The government has decorated the troops with regalia to make them proud of themselves, further trapping them in their self-image. Talismans are added from orthodox religions and the occult to fill the soldiers with delusions of mystical strengths and an afterlife if they fall in battle. Finally, knowing that it takes courage to kill the enemy face to face, the United States government has spent vast sums of money on wonder weapons, airplanes, submarines, ultra-long range artillery, cruise missiles, and guided missiles, weapons that kill at a distance, so that those doing the killing need not have to face the reality of what they are doing.

This is pure bullshit too.  I think Americans have fought well in more than enough infantry engagements and don't need to prove their courage to anyone.  We didn't just fight the wars with cruise missiles and smart bombs.  Whoever wrote this article has to be one of those coffeehouse pussies who thinks he knows more than he really does about the military.  Dangerous and sad pseudo-intellectualism.  Our government spends money to insure our technological superiority on the battlefiled, not because our fighting men are cowards, but because this makes the most sense intellectually.  The idea of warfare being a fair fight went out in the age of duels and slapping each other in the face with white gloves.  In war, you play to win.  That means always looking to have the advantage, edge or upperhand.  Technology and training are the best current means of maintaining that edge.  What a totally dipshit suggestion from a simpering bleeding heart armchair intellectual.

Quote[/b] ]As I mentioned above, Hitler was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year in 1938. Stalin was TIME Magazine's Man Of The Year for 1939 and 1942. Both of these men, and many others also celebrated by the media, were unimaginable monsters. The lesson from these facts is that it isn't easy to spot a genocidal tyrant when you live with one, especially one whom the press supports and promotes. Tyrants become obvious only when looking back, after what they have done becomes known. The German people did not stand up to Hitler because their media betrayed them, just as the American media is betraying the American people by willingly, voluntarily, even proudly, abandoning its traditional role as watchdog against government abuse.

Where is the evidence for this abandonment?  I'm not seeing it.  I'm seeing the media exposing a lot of ambarassing shit for the current administration.  They dog Bush every step of the way.

Quote[/b] ]If one thinks about it long enough, one will realize that all tyrants, past and most especially present, MUST use deception on their population to initiate a war. No citizen of a modern industrialized nation will send their children off to die in a war to grab another nation's resources and assets, yet resources and assets are what all wars are fought over. The nation that wishes to initiate a war of conquest must create the illusion of an attack or a threat to start a war, and must always give their population of cowards an excuse never to question that carefully crafted illusion.

I think as evidenced by our lack of concern over no WMD being found yet, this point is squarely refuted.  It seems many Americans would have happily sent their children off to war if it meant freeing the Iraqi people.  No one believes this was simply a resource grab yet.  When and if they come to do so, watch out!  The shit will hit the fan.

Quote[/b] ]It is naive, not to mention racist to assume that tyrants appear only in other nations and that somehow America is immune simply because we're Americans. America has escaped the clutches of a dictatorship thus far only through the efforts of those citizens who, unlike the Germans of the 1930s, have the moral courage to stand up and point out where the government is lying to the people. And unless more Americans are willing to have that kind of individual courage, then future generations may well look back on the American people with the same harshness of judgment with which we look back on the 1930s Germans.

Nope, America is immune to tyrants because of the Constitution you dumbass.  The efforts of citizens who prevent that sort of thing, recieve their protection through that document.

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nope, America is immune to tyrants because of the Constitution you dumbass.  The efforts of citizens who prevent that sort of thing, recieve their protection through that document.

LMAO You really should travel some more. Or learn other languages and learn about other cultures. Do you really think that the American Constitution is unique? Do you think that the Weimar Republic and Germany at the time of Hitlers ascent to power did not have a constitution? A constitution that was just as protective as the American one is.

Although I understand that Americans often experience some weird form of sexual arousal when they hear the word "Constitution", you must realize that it's only a piece of paper. And an antiquated one too.

Read ran's post. As he said, the French are now in their 5:th democratic republic. All the previous ones had constitutions that guaranteed the rights of the citizens and defined the political process.

[theavonlady 2]

OBL VIII is out at BlockBuster.

[denoir 0]

OBL VIII is out at BlockBuster.

This is bin Laden? I would have never recognized him..

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]Nope, America is immune to tyrants because of the Constitution you dumbass.  The efforts of citizens who prevent that sort of thing, recieve their protection through that document.

LMAO   You really should travel some more. Or learn other languages and learn about other cultures. Do you really think that the American Constitution is unique? Do you think that the Weimar Republic and Germany at the time of Hitlers ascent to power did not have a constitution? A constitution that was just as protective as the American one is.

Although I understand that Americans often experience some weird form of sexual arousal when they hear the word "Constitution", you must realize that it's only a piece of paper. And an antiquated one too.

Read ran's post. As he said, the French are now in their 5:th democratic republic. All the previous ones had constitutions that guaranteed the rights of the citizens and defined the political process.

No I don't think its unique except that in it was the first constitution (ignoring the Magna Carta which wasn't a true constitution), even though it may no longer be the best. If you isolate that comment (as you did) it doesn't make as much sense as if you took it in the context with which I originally presented it. We are safe from tyranny because of the Constitution and 200 million armed citizens who are unwilling to see it subverted. The military here doesn't swear an oath to protect and serve our government, they swear an oath to protect and serve our Constitution. I also don't see our government taking any actions to subvert the powers and rights granted to the American people by the Constitution. Which makes the comparison between the current American government and Nazi Germany totally absurd. Our government still represents us, it still derives its power and authority from us. Hitler overran and destroyed the Weimar republic. He assumed complete power and control over the people of Germany (and a few other nations). Its Constitution no longer applied or had any effect. The U.S. Constitution still controls our political system.

Oh and BTW, I traveled quite bit. I also speak Spanish and a little German, and am only a 2nd generation American who still has relatives overseas (Germany, Hungary, Italy and Czechloslovakia), so don't lecture me about travel or culture.

[denoir 0]

No I don't think its unique except that in it was the first constitution (ignoring the Magna Carta which wasn't a true constitution), even though it may no longer be the best.  If you isolate that comment (as you did) it doesn't make as much sense as if you took it in the context with which I originally presented it.  We are safe from tyranny because of the Constitution and 200 million armed citizens who are unwilling to see it subverted.  

You don't know that. It could (like Hitler) come through democratic means. The scary part is that it's so easy. Just look at the treatement of Arabic nationals after the WTC attacks. Where was the almighty constitution then? And who objected?

Quote[/b] ]The military here doesn't swear an oath to protect and serve our government, they swear an oath to protect and serve our Constitution.  

As does every other military in the world. And yet they grossly violate those constitutions now and then.

Quote[/b] ]I also don't see our government taking any actions to subvert the powers and rights granted to the American people by the Constitution.  

PATRIOT ACT

Quote[/b] ]Which makes the comparison between the current American government and Nazi Germany totally absurd.  Our government still represents us, it still derives its power and authority from us.  Hitler overran and destroyed the Weimar republic.  He assumed complete power and control over the people of Germany (and a few other nations).  Its Constitution no longer applied or had any effect.  The U.S. Constitution still controls our political system.

The question is not if American is becoming like the third reich today, but if it is possible. You seem to think that it is an impossibility which I think is a very naive view.

Quote[/b] ]Oh and BTW, I traveled quite bit.  I also speak Spanish and a little German, and am only a 2nd generation American who still has relatives overseas (Germany, Hungary, Italy and Czechloslovakia), so don't lecture me about travel or culture.

Sorry. I know all that - I was just emphasizing my point of "other countries have constitutions as well". It was not meant to be a personal attack

[Schoeler 0]

No I don't think its unique except that in it was the first constitution (ignoring the Magna Carta which wasn't a true constitution), even though it may no longer be the best.  If you isolate that comment (as you did) it doesn't make as much sense as if you took it in the context with which I originally presented it.  We are safe from tyranny because of the Constitution and 200 million armed citizens who are unwilling to see it subverted.  

You don't know that. It could (like Hitler) come through democratic means. The scary part is that it's so easy. Just look at the treatement of Arabic nationals after the WTC attacks. Where was the almighty constitution then? And who objected?

Its really not that easy.  To change the Constitution you have to start the Amendment process.  This means 2/3 of the States have to agree to amend and 3/4 of the States have to ratify the amendment.  It has happened very infrequently.  I think the treatment of Arabic nationals is a lot of press hype over a few isolated incidents.  I have Pakistani friends on campus and I've had them tell me that its scares them, but they haven't been officially mistreated.  Isolated redneck assholes can't be prevented however.  I will give you that our government has a checkered history with respect to this however.  All one needs to do is look at the internment of the Japanese during WWII.  A lot of court cases came out of that declaring it an abomination, so I don't think we'll ever see that again.  Also, lot's of people have and still are objecting about the treatment of Arabs.  Court cases are pending.  I think I read recently that there are over 250 "driving while arab" cases pending in our superior courts right now.

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Quote[/b] ]The military here doesn't swear an oath to protect and serve our government, they swear an oath to protect and serve our Constitution.  

As does every  other military in the world. And yet they grossly violate those constitutions now and then.

Violations of our Constitution have only lasted as long as it took for a case to be granted certiorari by the Supreme Court, argued and decided, with a few very rare exceptions (internment camps, segregation) in our society.

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Quote[/b] ]I also don't see our government taking any actions to subvert the powers and rights granted to the American people by the Constitution.  

PATRIOT ACT

While I would tend to agree with you, that is debatable, and cases are pending right now.  Besides, thats a 4th Amednment violation, its specific, and not a blanket violation, which the writer of the article made it seem to be.

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Quote[/b] ]Which makes the comparison between the current American government and Nazi Germany totally absurd.  Our government still represents us, it still derives its power and authority from us.  Hitler overran and destroyed the Weimar republic.  He assumed complete power and control over the people of Germany (and a few other nations).  Its Constitution no longer applied or had any effect.  The U.S. Constitution still controls our political system.

The question is not if American is becoming like the third reich today, but if it is possible. You seem to think that it is an impossibility which I think is a very naive view.

I suppose anything is possible, but i'd say that that hypothetical is extremely unlikely absent a nuclear holocaust or something.

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Quote[/b] ]Oh and BTW, I traveled quite bit.  I also speak Spanish and a little German, and am only a 2nd generation American who still has relatives overseas (Germany, Hungary, Italy and Czechloslovakia), so don't lecture me about travel or culture.

Sorry. I know all that - I was just emphasizing my point of "other countries have constitutions as well". It was not meant to be a personal attack

Fair enough.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Example Guantanamo Bay.

Strangely enough you dont even need to change the constitution to withdraw someone's human rights.

What is the constitution for if it cant even protect THE most essential RIGHTS?  

Oh and a constitution can be chopped into pieces bit by bit. This  commentthat I found in a different forum (which noone should take too serious) has some valid points. Hitler used "external factors" to justify his centralisation of power, And the people supported him!

[Renagade 0]

this makes quite an interesting thread.

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The US Government knows they rule a nation of cowards.

morons would be a better word and i would laugh if only we aren`t much better

[Harnu 0]

this makes quite an interesting thread.

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Quote  

The US Government knows they rule a nation of cowards.  

morons would be a better word and i would laugh if only we aren`t much better

Because we spend more on teaching geography (War) than all the rest of education... Tenfold!

We're not all that stupid. It's the smart ones that often do not actively participate in the government. Or cannot get into a high enough place.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

You should be happy that there aren't more intelligent Americans, as we tend to be more dangerous than the rest of them put together

[Harnu 0]

OBL VIII is out at BlockBuster.

I would have never recognized him..

That isn't Bin Laden. I think they said that's one of his close companion people, I'm too tired to think of his name!

[ralphwiggum 6]

Because we spend more on teaching geography (War) than all the rest of education... Tenfold!

i can tell you that most American youths tends to be somewhat challenged when it comes to international issues. of course, you play OFP so that shows you are above average

Quote[/b] ]We're not all that stupid. It's the smart ones that often do not actively participate in the government. Or cannot get into a high enough place.

and the reason being is that in US, smart people has better chance of making money in private sector. not to mention a bunch of morons who think O'Reilley has the ultimate wisdom tends to label smart ones 'nerds' and belittle them while using cellphones developed by nerds to chat and internet to download porns and musics.

or either go to academia, (like me) and end up being labeled as 'that liberal'

anyways, putting the thread back on topic:

Bush will not delay tax cuts to pay for 87 billion

[WhoCares 0]

and the reason being is that in US, smart people has better chance of making money in private sector. not to mention a bunch of morons who think O'Reilley has the ultimate wisdom tends to label smart ones 'nerds' and belittle them while using cellphones developed by nerds to chat and internet to download porns and musics.

Not to forget that it is easier to get people to vote for someone of them, then for someone intellectual superior

Just to keep it a little Off-Topic

[NurEinMensch 0]

Not to forget that it is easier to get people to vote for someone of them, then for someone intellectual superior

Just to keep it a little Off-Topic  

Probably true, yet something I don't understand. I want the smartest person available to do the job.

[-TU--33ker 0]

They saw themselves as the heroic Germans depicted by the Wagnerian Operas, the descendants of the fierce Germanic warriors who had hunted wild boar with nothing but spears and who had defeated three of Rome's mightiest legions in the Tuetenberg Forest.

It's called the Teuteburg Forest. I should know since Hermann's memorial (cheap US copy) is almost standing im my Backyard. And the famous Varus Battle in 9 BC was somewhere at Kalkriese.

*klugscheiss*

sorry for OT but this one had to be.

[Schoeler 0]

 I also don't see our government taking any actions to subvert the powers and rights granted to the American people by the Constitution.  Which makes the comparison between the current American government and Nazi Germany totally absurd.  

I may have spoken too soon.  I just heard on CNN this morning that as of mid 2004 new airline security measures will be enacted in the United States.  It seems that before entering any airport terminal you will have to submit a valid form of identification.  The I.D. will then be verified as you and a police background check and a credit check will be run on you.  Based upon the results of both scores you will be assigned a threat level, Green, Yellow or Red.  90% of all Americans will fall into the green category (statistically speaking) and will be allowed to immediately board their plane.  9% of all Americans will likely be assigned a yellow classification, meaning they will have to submit to stricter body searches and answer a series of more deeply probing questions before boarding their flight.  1% of Americans will likely be calssified as red, meaning they will never be allowed to board any aircraft, ever.

WTF is going on in this country?  If this doesn't get struck down in court before it is even enacted as a serious violation of the right to privacy and the right to travel freely, we are in grave danger of taking out the Constitution and just pissing all over it here in America.  This is just way too far now.  The Bush administration has far overstepped its authority and is now moving into abuse of power here.  If this happens, I'm going to be in the streets burning a flag and screaming for impeachment.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ] and a credit check will be run on you

....whatever for? Do they suggest poor people are dangerous?

Just how poor does one have to be in order to be considered a threat?

Quote[/b] ]If this happens, I'm going to be in the streets burning a flag and screaming for impeachment.

Hehe...please let me know when to turn on the tv - That's one thing I don't want to miss!

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ] and a credit check will be run on you

....whatever for? Do they suggest poor people are dangerous?

Just how poor does one have to be in order to be considered a threat?

That's what the fuck I want to know.  Because I was late on my car payments I'm now a terrorist threat?  Fuck Bush and his rich old boy network.  The worst part about this is that the classification is permanent.  Once a yellow or red, always a yellow or red.  If this passes, there will be some serious problems in this country.  I'll never, ever, ever, fucking ever vote republican for the rest of my days.

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Quote[/b] ]If this happens, I'm going to be in the streets burning a flag and screaming for impeachment.

Hehe...please let me know when to turn on the tv - That's one thing I don't want to miss!  

You might have to come bail me out of jail.  Its not going to be pretty.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]. Once a yellow or red, always a yellow or red. If this passes, there will be some serious problems in this country. I'll never, ever, ever, fucking ever vote republican for the rest of my days.

Damnit Schoeler - I have the perfect solution for you!

Why don't you just move to my country - and become a red (commiebastard) for the rest of your precious life

Quote[/b] ]You might have to come bail me out of jail. Its not going to be pretty.

hehe.. I'll do that - if they let me into your country!

US Customs: are you here for business or pleasure sir?

Brgnorway : Neither I'm afraid.......I'm here to set free a friend of mine whom your government chose put up for a while....