The Iraq Thread 2

[Cloney 0]

Simple fact is, the US along with the few have created a terrible situation in Iraq, and everything really is out of control.  No one has the right to pull stuff like this off, it's completely insane.   A day would have been long enough, but how long is it now and people are still dying and suffering.

Christ BN don't bleed your heart out to me man, *hands him a band aid*. Yes the situation is bad but it's probably not NEARLY as bad as people make it sound. If one soldier gets killed PER DAY, and there are hundreds of convoys moving around Iraq each day then that's not all that bad.

Our problem is that we don't have enough soldiers there, and the ones that are there are tired, mentally and physically. I don't know where you've been getting the impression that it is complete anarchy.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Was Rome built in a day?

dont forget that in the end Rome fell victim to its own arrogance!

I dont like historical comparisons, they usually fail miserably! Fact is that the war-phase was perfectly planned and organised, the after-war period however wasnt! And it seems noone is realy capable to correcting this misorganisation!

[bn880 5]

Simple fact is, the US along with the few have created a terrible situation in Iraq, and everything really is out of control. No one has the right to pull stuff like this off, it's completely insane. A day would have been long enough, but how long is it now and people are still dying and suffering.

Christ BN don't bleed your heart out to me man, *hands him a band aid*. Yes the situation is bad but it's probably not NEARLY as bad as people make it sound. If one soldier gets killed PER DAY, and there are hundreds of convoys moving around Iraq each day then that's not all that bad.

Our problem is that we don't have enough soldiers there, and the ones that are there are tired, mentally and physically. I don't know where you've been getting the impression that it is complete anarchy.

Yeah right, you can call Christ, Allah or whoever you want, facts are facts and no specially worded messages from you will change the fact that people in Iraq are in deep shit now because of the US.

[Cloney 0]

Tell that to the people we liberated from Saddam's prisons and torture chambers and what exactly do you call deep shit? Not having power? Power is supposed to be up by the end of September and the reason we are having so much trouble is that the Iraqi power grid was shoddy in the first place!

Enlighten me bn880 as to what you call "deep shit".

[bn880 5]

No I will not, if your media coverage is insufficient or if you don't follow news events then that is not my concern.

[Cloney 0]

I didn't ask what the media calls deep shit, I asked what YOU call deep shit. Stop with the word play.

[bn880 5]

Everything that is happening to the Iraqis now, and also what's not happening. Come on, it's quite obvious the state Iraq is in now compared to just before the US entered with their Cruise Missiles and Tanks.

Time to stop with the debating and realize some facts.

[denoir 0]

Tell that to the people we liberated from Saddam's prisons and torture chambers and what exactly do you call deep shit?

I'm sure that they're happy, but the vast majority that was not in Saddam's torture chambers, that are used to water and electricity and who do not like to have their religious leaders blown up aren't as thrilled.

Quote[/b] ]Not having power? Power is supposed to be up by the end of September and the reason we are having so much trouble is that the Iraqi power grid was shoddy in the first place!

The fact is that Baghdad had power until the day that US troops entered the city. Failing to impose martial law and sieze control directly the US military let the city descend into chaos. Now the power system does not work since unemployed Iraqis steal the generators and even wires from the electrical grid . And this is no way under control and the situation is not really improving. The boming of the UN headquarters and the boming of the Shia muslim leader shows another new serious trend that the Iraqis and the US has to worry about: terrorism.

I do hope that people realize the irony of the "war on terror" leading to this point when the frequency of terrorist attacks has reached an all-time high.

The only good thing is that US troops moved out of SA, which might calm down some upset people. On the other hand, IIRC, all the Bushites were saying how "appeasement does not work". Well, we'll see. Moving all US troops out of SA is certainly a policy of appeasement. I hope it will work. Placing them in Iraq will probably be looked upon as at least slightly better.

I thought until recently that the US would manage to get Iraq back to normal. I was sure it wasn't going to be easy and that it would require much work, but I was pretty sure that in the end, thing would calm down. I'm not so sure any more.

There are way too few troops in Iraq. USA can't/won't provide any more. So it's up to the rest of the world (again) to clean the mess up. What remains is for USA to ask very nicely, kiss some butts and give the UN full control and then maybe, maybe the countries that Bush insulted in various ways before the war will come to the rescue.

[FSPilot 0]

I find it hard to believe that this violence is brought on by citizens disgruntled by a lack of power. Granted, it's an inconvenience, but is it really a reason to take a gun or bomb and kill people? I doubt it. I'd understand protesting, but violence? I don't think so.

[Cloney 0]

I find it hard to believe that this violence is brought on by citizens disgruntled by a lack of power.  Granted, it's an inconvenience, but is it really a reason to take a gun or bomb and kill people?  I doubt it.  I'd understand protesting, but violence?  I don't think so.

I agree, and they can also thank their illustrious ex-leader for keeping their system up to date. Again, I believe that the situation has been drastically exaggerated and possibly exacerbated (whoa shit I'm sounding like Jesse Jackson) by the media.

[denoir 0]

I find it hard to believe that this violence is brought on by citizens disgruntled by a lack of power.  Granted, it's an inconvenience, but is it really a reason to take a gun or bomb and kill people?  I doubt it.  I'd understand protesting, but violence?  I don't think so.

Not violence, but the destruction of the infrastructure. I saw an interview a while ago with an Iraqi man who was busy ripping out power and telephone cables. He was selling them so he could feed his family.

And while it certainly aren't regular Iraqi citizens that plant bombs, it deteriorates the relations with the Americans. US troops are supposed to uphold law and order in Iraq and they are doing a terrible job. And disgruntled people provide a good recruiting base for terrorists.

As Ayatollah Hakim (the one that got blown up yesterday) said in his last sermon:

Quote[/b] ]The fourth point to which we should pay attention is the responsibility of the occupation forces for these attacks. The occupation forces did not carry out their legal and real duties to protect the religious authority and the holy places. This is to be condemned. We condemn this stance by the occupation forces.

Moreover, the occupation forces have not carried out their duties to protect the international organisations such as the headquarters of the United Nations in Baghdad. The UN headquarters also faced this kind of aggression.

They have also not provided protection to the diplomatic organisations such as the foreign embassies in Baghdad. Preventing such attacks is the responsibility of the occupation forces and they should carry out their responsibilities.

What is more important with regard to the responsibilities of the occupation forces is that since the first day I came to Iraq, even before I came to Iraq, I have been saying ... that you [the occupation forces] should give the Iraqis the opportunity to protect the holy places and the religious authority.

We do not need you or your forces. The Iraqis are capable of protecting themselves, their religious authority, and their holy places...

And this guy was the most American friendly of the Sh'ia leaders. And the Shi'as are the ones that were most happy to see Saddam go. So if he feels this way, then you can imagine how the other people, less positive to the US feel.

[ralphwiggum 6]

kinda wondering what other 3 points were.

[bn880 5]

Ahh check this out, Putin now says he would go along with a UN sanctioned force in Iraq led by the Americans if need be

Article

I can see how he decided for that.

EDIT: Apogies if this is old news here.

[ralphwiggum 6]

oh surely you did not mean this!

Quote[/b] ]But some Russian businessmen have warned that Moscow's hard line on Iraq would make their return to the country impossible.

Before the war, Russian oil companies had multi-million dollar agreements with Iraq for the development of oil fields.

Quote[/b] ]However, there is a high degree of anti-American feeling in Russia's armed forces, and they would not find it easy to accept American command.

thanx a lot General Guba.

[Cloney 0]

oh surely you did not mean this!

Quote[/b] ]But some Russian businessmen have warned that Moscow's hard line on Iraq would make their return to the country impossible.

Before the war, Russian oil companies had multi-million dollar agreements with Iraq for the development of oil fields.

Quote[/b] ]However, there is a high degree of anti-American feeling in Russia's armed forces, and they would not find it easy to accept American command.

thanx a lot General Guba.

Having the UN vote is nice, but I'm not sure how competent regular Russian Army units are compared to NATO units.

[DracoPaladore 0]

I find it hard to believe that this violence is brought on by citizens disgruntled by a lack of power.  Granted, it's an inconvenience, but is it really a reason to take a gun or bomb and kill people?  I doubt it.  I'd understand protesting, but violence?  I don't think so.

I agree, and they can also thank their illustrious ex-leader for keeping their system up to date. Again, I believe that the situation has been drastically exaggerated and possibly exacerbated (whoa shit I'm sounding like Jesse Jackson) by the media.

I don't think the populace are responsible for such actions. I'm thinking more along the lines of terror-magnet. Considering that there was a jihad pointed at the western world, putting troops and invading a country in that region will only attract them.

I mean, why miss your opportunity to visit allah if your target is a stones throw away from the border. Or, even, a stones throw away from your house.

[FSPilot 0]

Denoir

Quote[/b] ]Not violence, but the destruction of the infrastructure. I saw an interview a while ago with an Iraqi man who was busy ripping out power and telephone cables. He was selling them so he could feed his family.

How is shooting coalition soldiers, blowing up UN buildings, and blowing up oil pipelines not violence?

[denoir 0]

Having the UN vote is nice, but I'm not sure how competent regular Russian Army units are compared to NATO units.

Having experience with both American and Russian troops in Kosovo I'd say that Russian peace keepers are far more competent than American peace keepers. So it really should really be no problem.

Quote[/b] ]How is shooting coalition soldiers, blowing up UN buildings, and blowing up oil pipelines not violence?

As you said yourself - it isn't ordinary Iraqi citizens that to that.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Having the UN vote is nice, but I'm not sure how competent regular Russian Army units are compared to NATO units.

Having experience with both American and Russian troops in Kosovo I'd say that Russian peace keepers are far more competent than American peace keepers. So it really should really be no problem.

you mean comparing US's reservists to Russia's finest who are getting great support from serbians to begin with?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]How is shooting coalition soldiers, blowing up UN buildings, and blowing up oil pipelines not violence?

As you said yourself - it isn't ordinary Iraqi citizens that to that.

FS, denoir is pointing out the fact that Iraqi civilians are making things a bit worse by stealing what would be used as public good. it does not take a guy with a .22 rifle, but a guy with wire cutter to effect infrastructure of Iraq.

[denoir 0]

you mean comparing US's reservists to Russia's finest who are getting great support from serbians to begin with?

Yepp. In Russia, as in most countries, peacekeeping duties are considered a priviledge (and they're also striclty on a volunteer basis) which results in good troops being sent. USA does not share that view so they send their regulars which are utterly unsuitable for the job.

So yes, I'm not comparing the competence of Russian vs US regular units since such a comparison would be pointless. But specifically, for the task at hand, you could not do much worse than US soldiers that both lack the training and the will for peacekeeping. Perhaps they will gain some experience now during this Iraq excursion. It's not however just a question of the performance of the soldiers. A lot of the bad rep that the US has when it comes to peacekeeping comes from the military and political doctrine "fire and forget". They will have to realize that there are things you have to deal with after you drop all your nifty GPS guided bombs.

[Cloney 0]

Reservists are not regulars. Regulars would be soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division or 1st Cavalry Division, not troops from the 4235th Signal Battalion of the Kentucky National Guard. (Made up unit.)

[ralphwiggum 6]

in other words, you misstated your point. you should be worried about lack of system in selection of peacekeepers, not on the basis of soldiers.

anyways,

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/31/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]The FBI -- already involved in investigating the Jordanian Embassy and U.N. headquarters bombings -- is to help Iraqi police working on the Najaf car bomb case which killed 83 people including an influential Shiite cleric, a U.S. official said Sunday.

[denoir 0]

Reservists are not regulars. Regulars would be soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division or 1st Cavalry Division, not troops from the 4235th Signal Battalion of the Kentucky National Guard. (Made up unit.)

Those in Kosovo weren't reservists, they were regulars. Well, there were of course many NG units, but IIRC the backbone back then (2001) was made up of regular units. Don't know how it is now though. I can imagine that it's probably national guard all around now.

Quote[/b] ]in other words, you misstated your point. you should be worried about lack of system in selection of peacekeepers, not on the basis of soldiers.

Not at all, read my post again. I specifically said peace keepers.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]Yepp. In Russia, as in most countries, peacekeeping duties are considered a priviledge (and they're also striclty on a volunteer basis) which results in good troops being sent. USA does not share that view so they send their regulars which are utterly unsuitable for the job.

in other words, systematic support gives the best of Russian peacekeppers. so change of system should be made such that it is not a factor in difference of quality of peacekeepers, but on the soldier itself only.

since US has no such system, it cannot be concluded on whether each soldier is different from each other.

[denoir 0]

since US has no such system, it cannot be concluded on whether each soldier is different from each other.

It can be concluded whether the peacekeepers from each country are different.