The Iraq Thread 2

[denoir 0]

I read a book a while ago on the first GW and the author said that after 1991 Saddam relaxed the gun laws in the country and encouraged people to get weapons. Before that Iraq had fairly stric gun laws, but they wern't respected at all and the police never really enforced them.

I don't have the book here, but I'm sure you can find some equivalent info on the net.

[aj_addons 0]

Before the war it was well publicesed that irqi gun shops couldnt get enough weapons to sell quick enough that they were selling so fast!

In the end i dont think America is going to win this one short of pulling out and turnning the entire country in to a giant smoke crater, cause there will always be deep resentment towards the americans, I think they really are running on borrowed time

[denoir 0]

At least six Italians killed. Bombing of military Police HQ in al-Nasiriyya. And one US soldier in the usual meat-grinder in Baghdad.

Edit: Correction - 12 dead and bodycount rising.

[aj_addons 0]

thanks denoir hadnt heard about that, didnt even now there were italiens in iraq till just then

[theavonlady 2]

didnt even know there were italiens in iraq till just then

Was mentioned here.

[Mr. Snrub 0]

The problem with taking AKs away from Iraqis is that guns are pretty much an integral part of Iraqi society, and have been for some time - many Iraqis hang on to theirs to protect their business and families.

I was not aware that Saddam let everyone in the country tote automatic rifles.

Where did you get this from?

Like Denoir said, after the first Gulf War Saddam was feeling a bit jumpy, and subsequently allowed the populace to arm itself in the event that the US came back for him sometime in the future.

12 years of gun ownership is, granted, a small amount of time (compared to the United State' 250+ years of gun culture) in which to make the population dependent on small arms. Iraqis, however, were subject to continual propaganda from the government which suggested that the US might come and finish them off at any moment. That paranoia combined with the lawlessness of reconstruction makes guns a commodity that the average Iraqi would rather not give up, lest they be offered reasonable terms for a trade in...

[Consigliere 0]

At least six Italians killed. Bombing of military Police HQ in al-Nasiriyya. And one US soldier in the usual meat-grinder in Baghdad.

Edit: Correction -  12 dead and bodycount rising.

17 Italians now

...And they were there training Iraqi policemen!

Fratelli d'Italia

L'Italia s'Ä desta

Dell'elmo di Scipio

S'Ä cinta la testa

Dov'Ä la vittoria

Le porga la chioma

ChÄ schiava di Roma

Iddio la creň

Stringia moci a coorte

Siam pronti alla morte

L'Italia chiamň

Stringia moci a coorte

Siam pronti alla morte

L'Italia chiamň, sě

[Italianmobster88 0]

bush sucks...

couldnt find the weapons of mass destruction if they were up his stupid monkey ass...!

[theavonlady 2]

couldnt find the weapons of mass destruction if they were up his ............

Wow! Great 1st post!

[Acecombat 0]

couldnt find the weapons of mass destruction if they were up his ............

Wow! Great 1st post!

Yeah how obvious could he get ...

[walker 0]

Hi all

It appears both US and UK are going to put in more troops.

Not realy suprising I think a minimum of four times as many as now are needed. I would opt for eight times as many in an ideal world totaly swamp the place along with lots of engineers, doctors and police employ interpreters on a one for one bassis. To do it it would require the Draft and even with this a lot would die.

The plain fact is we in the UK and US made the mess and we are responsible for tyding it up.

If it is done as a short sharp shock with a elections planned for 6 months from now that might work.

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

Yepp, more troops are needed.  After the attack on the Italian troops, Japan has also backed out from sending troops. Last week it was Turkey that decided against sending their forces. Germany, France and Russia - the three most important players that could in theory contribute the bulk of the needed force (just the EU has nearly three times the miltary manpower of USA) don't want anything to do with Bush's Iraq. Quite understandable as they were against the war in the first place.

And more troops are desperately needed. It's a question of numbers. The question is however if it's at all doable without introducing the draft in the US?

More than half the active US military personel are now in Iraq. That's about 133,000 soldiers. However only 56,000 are units capable of combat/peace keeping. The rest are support units. To give an example, the 101:st airborne has 270 choppers that require over 1,000 technicians to keep them in the air.

And other units have whole sets of heavy artillery, advanced anti-aircraft systems, air power etc - things that have no purpose in post-war Iraq. As a matter of fact at most 28,000 servicemen are available for the keeping of order and security in Iraq. And that's pathetic. For comparison in New York there are 39,000 police officers who also have the advantage of speaking the language and being on their home turf - something the soldiers in Iraq don't. So having any form of security in the six-million city of Baghdad is impossible with those small numbers - and much more so in the country as a whole.

The question is however if it's at all possible at all to get the number of soldiers qualified for the task. They're training in parallel Iraqi police officers and soldiers, but that's a long way from giving any results. It takes time and the occupying forces are getting more unpopular by the day. If this continues, there is a risk of the whole situation getting out of control and beyond repair.

The problem is also that US soldiers have no peace-keeping experience while the British are too few to make any difference. But getting more soldiers into the country is a good first step.

Interesting though is the radical change of US policy that has happened during the last days. Now they're talking about handing over the political powers to the Iraqis ASAP. This was the position of France et al but was rejected very strongly by USA saying that it was impossible. I'm not quite sure if now this change of policy is an attempt of pleasing the reluctant European countries so that they reconsider their refusal to send troops or if it is an early pull-out strategy. Give the control to the Iraqis and then get the hell out of there, so to say. I hope that it's the former because I seriously doubt that the Iraqis are capable to handle the state of chaos the country is in.

[denoir 0]

The Insurgent And The Soldier (TIME magazine)

Quote[/b] ]

They view themselves as men of honor. And they are trying to wipe each other out in Fallujah, Iraq's red-hot core

By SIMON ROBINSON/FALLUJAH

Under the Saddam Hussein regime, "Ahmed" was an insider, a commando who served in the feared Fedayeen Saddam militia. Now he's a guerrilla battling the American occupiers who rule his homeland. He spends his days plotting new ways to kill U.S. soldiers and his nights carrying out those deadly raids. His base is Fallujah, the town 30 miles west of Baghdad that has become the epicenter of the insurgency. Ahmed, 40, who won't allow his real name to be published for fear of leading the Americans to him, looks more like a simple farmer than a killer: deeply etched lines radiate from the corners of his eyes, and his face is anchored by a stubbly salt-and-pepper beard. But his intentions are lethal. "If you come like a friend, we will say, 'Welcome,' and help you," he says. "But if you come like the Americans did to control us, then we will kill you."

American Staff Sergeant Richard Bear is in Iraq to stop men like Ahmed. It was a desire to do something significant with his life and gain notice that put him on the path that would eventually lead him to Fallujah. "Right after the first Gulf War," he recalls, "I was driving back from my job at Wal-Mart when I saw a busful of reservists returning home. People were clapping and cheering and honking their horns. These guys were heroes. I thought to myself, That's what I want -- recognition, a sense of accomplishment." And so he enlisted. Trained as a paratrooper, Bear served in Afghanistan last year and arrived in Iraq two months ago with Charlie Company of the 1-505 Parachute Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division. "Nobody has delusions of grandeur that we're going to be the ones to catch Saddam Hussein," says Bear, 33, sitting in his makeshift sleeping quarters at the battalion's base -- a former Baath Party resort named Dreamland, just outside Fallujah. "We're just here to do our little bit in our little patch of Iraq."

The two men -- an Iraqi insurgent and an American soldier -- have more in common than one might expect. Both are fathers who care deeply about their children and their country. Both see their jobs as their duty. Both pray each time they head out on a new mission. "They have their way of fighting, and we have our way of fighting," says Ahmed, who fingers amber-colored prayer beads as he talks. "Everyone wants to defend his country and his honor." Says Bear: "I want my wife and family to be proud of me because what I am doing is protecting them."

Ahmed began organizing with other insurgents soon after the fall of Baghdad. They gathered weapons from pre-existing caches, many of which still litter the country unguarded. They formed small cells that mostly act independently but sometimes coordinate operations, communicating through messengers. Lately, Ahmed says, these units have begun to work with foreign fighters who have infiltrated Iraq to confront the Americans. He says his group welcomes "anybody who embraces the language of the Koran." Hiding is easy, Ahmed contends: "I am in my country. Every door to every house is open to me."

On a recent night, Ahmed met seven other men at a safe house in Fallujah a few blocks from two sites the cell had decided to target: the mayor's office and an adjacent building once belonging to the Baath Party but now used by provisional Iraqi officials and, on this night, U.S. soldiers. As Ahmed tells the story, sometime after midnight he retired to a bedroom in the safe house and prayed for a few minutes "until my heart rested." Then he rejoined the others and stole out into the night. The posse split up, says Ahmed. Five moved on foot, and three rode small motorcycles. At about 1 a.m., they attacked from two directions, opening up with Kalashnikovs and firing two rocket-propelled grenades at the buildings. Ahmed says that the U.S. soldiers returned fire and that the next day they left the compound. "Every time they retreat it is a victory," he says.

American soldiers in the mayor's compound that night mostly confirm that version of events but quibble on the timing of the assaults. Captain Jay Persons, a spokesman for the 1-505, who was in the mayor's office during the fighting, says four soldiers were injured, two when a rocket-propelled grenade exploded beside them on the roof of the building they were guarding and two from small-arms fire. He also confirms that the U.S. left the compound the following day. "We're a real attraction whenever we're a fixed target," says Persons. "So we're handing over security [at the compound] to the Iraqi police."

The soldiers of the 1-505 are on the alert for people like Ahmed at all times. Bear and his colleagues patrol the streets and highways around Fallujah and try to provide security for convoys whenever soldiers travel to another base. In September, Bear was in the last humvee of one such convoy crossing a bridge over the Euphrates when a roadside bomb blew up in front of him. The convoy stopped and within seconds was taking light arms fire from three directions. "We did what we are supposed to: we all faced out, said, 'This is my wedge of the arc,' and started shooting," says Specialist Brian Saladin, 27, who was in the vehicle in front of Bear's. "You go on automatic pilot," says Bear. "I didn't have time to think about my wife, my kids, my cat, my dog. It's not until afterward when you say, 'Wow, we were getting shot at and blown up.'"

Bear tries to keep thoughts of mortality at bay, not an easy thing to do when comrades are dying daily: 16 U.S. soldiers in Fallujah perished last week when a Chinook helicopter carrying them was shot down by what American military officials believe was a surface-to-air missile; six more soldiers died last Friday when their Black Hawk helicopter was brought down, apparently by a rocket-propelled grenade; an additional 10 soldiers died in other attacks over the course of the week. "It's not all-consuming," says Bear of his fears. "I don't sit on my bed for 12 hours and pray." But like his enemy Ahmed, Bear asks God for help before every operation as he stands with his buddies to listen to the commander's orders and spit chewing tobacco into the dust. "You say a little prayer and ask that your family is taken care of if something happens," says Bear. "You say, 'Lord, you took care of me before. Take care of me now.'"

Despite the risks, Bear doesn't second-guess his mission. "Why do I think that I'm here? The answer is, to help the Iraqi people," says Bear. "I don't believe that we're part of any rogue U.S. government plot to take all the oil. We don't want to turn this into a little America. We just want to help people." Bear says he wants to "make sure Iraqi kids have some of the opportunities my kids have." The walls of his quarters are decorated with drawings from his two children back home in Fort Bragg, N.C.

Ahmed sees things differently. The Americans' purpose, he believes, is to subjugate Iraq. The father of five says he fights for his country first and his children second. "If I haven't a country, how can I have children?" he asks. Ahmed says he remains loyal to Saddam Hussein, who he believes will one day lead Iraq again. "We do not hate the American people. We hate their government," he says. "So we ask, 'Why send your sons to us so that we can kill them?' During the struggle I may live or I may die. But even if I do die, there are plenty of others who will follow me, and they will keep fighting until the last American has left Iraq." The months ahead will decide whose vision will prevail.

[bn880 5]

Interesting though is the radical change of US policy that has happened during the last days. Now they're talking about handing over the political powers to the Iraqis ASAP. This was the position of France et al but was rejected very strongly by USA saying that it was impossible. I'm not quite sure if now this change of policy is an attempt of pleasing the reluctant European countries so that they reconsider their refusal to send troops or if it is an early pull-out strategy. Give the control to the Iraqis and then get the hell out of there, so to say. I hope that it's the former because I seriously doubt that the Iraqis are capable to handle the state of chaos the country is in.

It seems to me Bush sees a gigantic failure coming his way and like a snake he is trying different strategies to handle the situation(sneak himself out). This means the post war plans have failed, or never existed in the first place.

Anyway, I think there was some movement towards the draft a few weeks ago in the US. Something about looking for people to handle the paperwork etc. We'll see, but it seems if the resistance in Iraq continues as it is now, they will be drafting... or tucking in their tails and leaving(not yet I don't think).

[denoir 0]

The web is truly great for history revisionism. Too bad for the revisionists that the Google cache exists:

From whitehouse.gov/response taken today

Google cache:

Nice, eh? What's next? Editing his speeches and removing all reference to WMD?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I don't see it- I mean, I see that they changed 'combat operations' to 'major combat operations', but I don't see anything in either one about WMD... and besides, the little quick link to the WMD pdf file still seems to be available on the page from today that you linked. So, I guess what I'm asking is: what's your point?

[denoir 0]

@ Nov. 14 2003,16:06)]I don't see it- I mean, I see that they changed 'combat operations' to 'major combat operations',

That's it.

Quote[/b] ]but I don't see anything in either one about WMD... and besides, the little quick link to the WMD pdf file still seems to be available on the page from today that you linked.

I said

What's next? Editing his speeches and removing all reference to WMD?

I.e a hypothetical question.

Quote[/b] ]So, I guess what I'm asking is: what's your point?  

This type of revisionism doesn't bother you?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

My bad, I thought what you were actually saying was that they had removed the references to WMD. My bad. It does bother me to a certain extent, but then again, all I've ever heard from that date onwards has been 'major' combat operations- I listened to the speech myself, and he never said that combat operations were over. As far as I can see, a White House staffer might have used a little shorthand when he typed up the day's talking points, and a few weeks later somebody saw it on the website, freaked out, and decided to change it. Questionable, but not especially concern-worthy when taken in conjunction with the message that has consistently been coming out of the White House since that speech was made.

[Acecombat 0]

I am not surprised this is SUCH a SMALL thing to do when compared to asking a country to remove/edit parts of their Holy Book ...

[ralphwiggum 6]

they can change the website contents but there are archives of footage from TV that is kept for years to come. i think there is sense of over reaction of assuming that there is a deliberate change in contents.

[denoir 0]

[walker 0]

Hi Denoir

That KIA per week Curve looks almost exponetial. So the generals must know they have lost the initiative. They have to do something dramatic to regain it.

They realy need to work out what the communications system that their enemy is using is; as that kind of curve usualy only comes with strategic thinking on the part of your enemy. It is straight indications of a plan.

If the Curve holds for two weeks I think the generals will ask for the Draft; I would. The problem is not now but the 3 months basic training down the line that they have to consider.

Extrapilate the curve assuming no change in the situation see what manpower losses are in 6 months. Then compare to expected manpower and requirements.

Kind Regards Walker

[ralphwiggum 6]

note to TBA: to ask for something big, send the president not his uncle.

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]TOKYO, Japan (AP) -- Any hope U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had of being greeted in Japan with government assurances of a speedy dispatch of troops to Iraq were dashed even before he arrived.

Rumsfeld was whisked directly from the airport Friday to an evening meeting with Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, whose government announced a day earlier that it will almost certainly delay sending a contingent of non-combat troops until next year.

Japan is one of the United States' most steadfast allies -- arguably the most important in Asia -- and has pledged billions of dollars in financial aid for Iraq's reconstruction.

Washington had hoped Japan would send troops before the end of the year, but after Wednesday's deadly attack on an Italian compound in southern Iraq, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda backed off, saying the security situation there is not yet stable enough.

After Rumsfeld's 45-minute meeting with Koizumi, a Rumsfeld aide who briefed reporters on condition he not be identified said the subject of Japanese troops in Iraq wasn't discussed.

Quote[/b] ]In an interview with reporters flying with him to Tokyo, Rumsfeld showed no sign of disappointment at Japan's decision to delay troop deployment and even suggested the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq was gaining strength.

He said he was impressed by Italy's stated determination to remain in Iraq, even after losing 18 people in the attack at Nasiriya. The Italians indicated they may send replacement forces, he said.

"So the signal that's been sent is quite the contrary" to any suggestion that the coalition is in trouble in Iraq, Rumsfeld said, noting that 32 countries have troops on the ground and that Washington is in discussions with 14 more on providing either combat or humanitarian troops.

Rumsfeld acknowledged, however, that the anti-American resistance in Iraq is learning to stay one step ahead of the technologically superior U.S. military.

"The remnants of the regime are going to school on us," he said. "They watch what takes place and then they make adjustments. The test is who's going to outlast the other, and the answer is we're going to outlast them."

Quote[/b] ]Rumsfeld also said Washington has abandoned its original plan to restore sovereignty to the Iraqis only after they have written and ratified a new constitution and held elections.

"The experts say to do that would take a very long period of time -- a couple of years," he said.

obviously no post war plans existed.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

asking a country to remove/edit parts of their Holy Book ...

The protestants did that

[Acecombat 0]

I dont know who the american's are trying to fool this is a LOST battle once again they have humbled themselves by a bunch of guerillas , this war certainly isnt winnable for them at any xtent now , the best thing for them is to leave as is ASAP.