The Iraq Thread 2

[ralphwiggum 6]

denoir, a few months ago FSPilot said "when you attack Bush, you are attacking americans since majority of them supports war."

and you saying americans in a lumpsum are responsible for this war seems to be on the same line. did your gov't do anything that is congruent to majority? how about joining Euro-zone vote? you certainly wanted it, but majority of Swedes decided against it. does that mean most of Swedes are backward nomads? nope.

[denoir 0]

Not bakckward nomads, but backward, living in a fantasy world. Yes unfortunately

And we who voted yes will bear the consequences of that decision. That's the way democracy works. The majority runs over the minority but both pay the bill.

I think this is one generally overlooked factor: that indeed in a democracy power comes from the people. Now, the PC thing to say would be "Aw, the trustworthy, good and kind American people were fooled by the buffoon Bush". And then you write off the responsibility to the politicians. This may be the nice thing to do, but it's not really fair. Bush was elected by the people (in theory at least) and the majority of the people did support the war. Is it so strange to ask for accountability from the people as well?

Quote[/b] ]denoir, a few months ago FSPilot said "when you attack Bush, you are attacking americans since majority of them supports war."

Yes, and that was the way he felt. Why do you think he asked me "why I hate America" most of times I attacked Bush? Now you, and many others in this forum who represented the minority that didn't like Bush and didn't approve of the war, did not make the same assumptions as he did. But he did have a point. I do think that most Americans made a big mistake by supporting Bush. And if you look at it that way, there is some importance in not allowing it to happen again. And that's where the good ol'e carrot/whip model comes in:

Do good thing: Carrot

Do bad thing: Whip

That's how you learn from your mistakes. Now there were still plenty of you who didn't support Bush or the war and you'll be paying for the 87 billion dollar bill too. But hey, life's a bitch and that's how a democracy works. I'll be paying for my dear countrymen's decision not to join the Eurozone...

[bn880 5]

Well Denoir, it seems that Bush is an extremely stupid man, but yet he has pulled a nice chess move over US citizens.

Yeah, you hear a lot of that "Poor Americans - they were duped by Bush and his henchmen etc". Well, it's possible, but it's a democracy. Over 50% of the American people supported the war with Iraq and they are responsible for that decision. So it's only fair that they the consequences of it as well. A clear majority of the congressmen and senators - including leading democrats - voted for a war. Now Bush may have lied to them about the threat that Iraq was posing but they did not analyze his claims. And since most of the world was against the war and pointed out that Bush's case for war was pure BS, the idea of critically analyzing his claims was not at all far-fetched.

So:

1) America should take responsibility for its actions. This includes every American man, women and child. It may have been Bush & Co who came up with the idea for war, but over half of the population supported him. And in a democracy this means that this was the decision of your country. You took the decision collectivly and you should pay the cost collectivly. For those that were against the war: though luck. Democracy is a majority rule.

2) Hopefully the American people have recognized by now that Bush ain't a good leader. Because of his and his administration, you are going to pay for the whole reconstruction of Iraq all by yourself - both in money and blood.

It's easy to blame the leaders. However since the ultimate power lies with the people, it's not unreasonable to expect the people to take some responsibility too. Especially since so many (70%+) supported this war.

Well I agree with you, by supporting Bush and the war effort Americans (majority) are also to blame, and will be if he is re-elected. Problem is, in between the majority was the minority, who really don't and didn't support Bush & Co. They are stuck with a nirmod leading their nation, sucks, but it's not the first time, not even the tenth time we've seen this in the world I guess.

[Acecombat 0]

State Dept report urges revamping of US image in Muslim world

WASHINGTON: The United States must radically transform its public diplomacy to combat increased hostility toward America in the Arab and Muslim world, a US State Department advisory panel report said. According to CNN the report found that "hostility toward America has reached shocking levels" and called for US public relations efforts, known as public diplomacy, that match ‘the gravity of our approach to national defense and state-to-state diplomacy’.

The State Department defines public diplomacy as "engaging, informing, and influencing key international audiences."

That mission once belonged to the US Information Agency, an independent agency whose functions were rolled into the State Department in 1999.

Edward Djerejian, a former US ambassador to Syria who served as the advisory panel’s chairman, released the report at a Wednesday news conference.

"We, the United States, are not in any significant way present in the daily discourse, the debates, the discussions, the conversations that are going on in the Arab Muslim world about us," said Djerejian, who is director of the James A. Baker III Institute for Public Policy at Rice University.

The panel, the Advisory Group on Public Diplomacy for the Arab and Muslim World, conducted a three-month study before issuing its report, titled "Changing Minds, Winning Peace: A New Strategic Direction for US Public Diplomacy in the Arab and Muslim World."

Researchers spoke with people in Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Senegal, Morocco, Britain and France. The study was requested by Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Illinois, who chairs the House International Relations Committee, and Rep. Frank Wolfe, R-Virginia, who chairs a subcommittee on the House Appropriations Committee that handles public diplomacy funding.

"What is required is not merely tactical adaptation but strategic, and radical, transformation," the report said. Fawaz Gerges, professor of international affairs and Middle Eastern studies at Sarah Lawrence College and author of the book "America and Political Islam," agreed with its conclusion.

"The roots of the problem lie with -->foreign policy<-- rather than in society, civilization or American culture," Gerges told CNN. "Neither spin nor propaganda will do. And what the studies show is what’s needed is a radical transformation of American foreign policy"

Djerejian said public diplomacy activities in the US government are "absurd and dangerously" under-funded in relation to the rising anti-American discourse among Arabs and Muslims. He called for the creation of a Corporation for Public Diplomacy as a way to fund more programs.

He said the shortfall began when the United States dramatically decreased its public diplomacy activities after the fall of the Soviet Union. "We have let down our guard," he said. "With the collapse of the Soviet Union we thought that was the end of history. We were wrong."

The report recommends a special White House Cabinet-level council to coordinate public diplomacy among all government agencies, as well as an "advisory board" to judge agency effectiveness.

It also calls for more training in public diplomacy and additional language skills for all foreign service officers with the aim of explaining US values, culture and policies throughout the Arab and Muslim world.

The report found that out of dozens of Arab speakers in the foreign service, only five are able to speak authoritatively about US policies in a capacity representing the US government.

The report was large on initiatives to increase US outreach around the world, but short on specifics of how to deal with what many Arabs and Muslims say is their real problem with the United States — policies considered hostile to them, such as the action in Iraq or what they see as the United States’ tilt toward Israel against the Palestinians.

"We fully acknowledge that public diplomacy is only part of the picture," the report said, citing surveys showing it would "reduce tensions" to resolve various issues. But Djerejian said the panel’s mandate was limited to addressing public diplomacy activities.

Several previous reports, including one from the Council on Foreign Relations and a recent GAO study, reached similar conclusions and made similar recommendations.

[ralphwiggum 6]

it takes all sides come to the understanding. Arabs tend to blame many things on US, and some are products of the gov't's policies. however, the outgoing prime minister of Indonesia(?) recently said in world muslim conference somthing that should be seriously pondered in Arab nations. his point was that for Islam to be accepted, instead of hostility, the religion needs to embrace others too, and be in good terms.

everytime something goes wrong, there are plenty of muslim clerics who blame US, but I think i saw little or no condemnation of their own bastards as often and intese as they blame US on its actions, whether justified or not.

[Acecombat 0]

Agreed Mr Ralph , Islam in its true form excepts every religion in peace , if you know about Islamic history you will see that it co-existed with christainity and judaism in arabia , muslims were at the fore front of initiating peace processes unlike the hostile atitude thrown at them from jews and christains at that time. e.g Caliph Umars taking of Jerusalem in peace when the jewish patriarch himself handed him the key to the city with the words ..."Verily Islam has excelled all religions".

Not to put down other religions but i dont think islam is the problem,its the muslims that are especially the leaders..............

which brings to the subject of our 'bastards' ...which are supported by US itself ..Pakistan {musharraf] , Saudi arabia [saud family] etc etc...

Why doesnt the US attacks them too when Saddam is attacked and NK is threatened on a daily basis?

But i think the moral of that article down there was that americns need to learn more about the culture/religion of the people here and then aim to discuss important subjects to remove the misunderstanding that has been generatd here about the West .... People living here dont see the US people what they see is the US govt and its decietful foreign policys bring about a change in that and people might start thinking differently , or simply dont interfere.

[theavonlady 2]

Agreed Mr Ralph , Islam in its true form excepts every religion in peace , if you know about Islamic history you will see that it co-existed with christainity and judaism in arabia

I can't speak for Christianity but the word coexistance doesn't describe Mohamed's relationship and words concerning the Jews. Examples.

Quote[/b] ]muslims were at the fore front of initiating peace processes unlike the hostile atitude thrown at them from jews and christains at that time.

Quote[/b] ]e.g Caliph Umars taking of Jerusalem in peace when the jewish patriarch himself handed him the key to the city with the words ..."Verily Islam has excelled all religions".

What Jewish "patriarch"? Sophronius was the head of the church in Jerusalem. Which makes sense since Jerusalem at the time was under Christian Byzantine control.

And neither Christians nor Jews were very happy with the taxation and oppression that followed.

Have a nice day.

[Acecombat 0]

Very unbiased link there avon ..... ...yeah meccans were massacred .. wow they forgot to mention an AK ?

Shessh i could write a essay contradicting that site and its FLAWs but i'll save me sometime  

Muhammed always made and tried to make peace with  jews , what did he get in return ? Threats and plots of assasination on him by jews and Pagans? The jews didnt allow him in to medina (that was like saying taliban welcoming american troops   ) , he was welcomed there by muslims living there already who had converted in Makkah and HE on his arrival had sign a peace treaty with jews concerning the safety of Medina n its surroundings which was violated by the jews in battle of trench and Uhad.Not to mention the one water well which was owned by a jew didnt allow muslims to drink from it , which Usman (later caliph) bought it from him and made free for everyone in medina free of charge.

And what oppression? They were not forced to do anything except pay 'jizya' a tax WHICH was used to protect the land i.e themselves from foriegn attacks. Before any battle the Prophet Muhammed passed three choices either:

1.Accept Islam..become brothr muslims.

2.Pay jizya tax and come under our protection.

3.Fight.

Simple and even.

After conquering medina and makkah no jew was persecuted or harmed in anyway neither were they in Jerusalem , though if living under muslims is oppression then i dont think anyone do much to help them there. THEY WERE ALSO allowed freedom of religion and were allowed to practise their rligion and bliefs as they pleased. But they never ceased making problems now did they ? After medina it was Khyber then Syria and jerusalem....

Have a nicer day ...

[theavonlady 2]

Very unbiased link there avon .....

Sorry. I'm just a Dhimmi who should have behaved better.

[hellfish6 7]

OK. Ace and Avon, this is about to boil over into a religious war. Stop now or forever cherish your PRs.

[theavonlady 2]

Stop now or forever cherish your PRs.

Talking about religious war!

Isn't that what they say at Christian weddings just before pronouncing the couple as husband and wife?

[hellfish6 7]

Ugh... I'm not above taking postcounts away.

[theavonlady 2]

The majority runs over the minority but both pay the bill.

Congress OKs $87.5B for Iraq, Afghanistan

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON - President Bush will soon sign the $87.5 billion package he requested for Iraq and Afghanistan, but his Democratic critics used its final approval by Congress to highlight what they say are his failed policies in Iraq.

The Senate, on a voice vote Monday, gave its assent to the legislation three days after the House blessed it by 298-121. It closely tracks the outlines of an $87 billion plan Bush requested Sept. 7 in a nationally broadcast speech.

[blackdog~ 0]

nnnnnevermind

[theavonlady 2]

Big Boom in Baghdad.

Quote[/b] ]Huge Explosions Rock Central Baghdad

8 minutes ago

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Huge explosions rocked central Baghdad on Tuesday night, and smoke could be seen rising close to the compound used as a headquarters of the U.S. occupation.

Four large explosions could be heard about 7:45 p.m. along the Tigris River. The smoke appeared coming from the northern end of the sprawling U.S. compound near the al-Jamhuriya Bridge which crosses the Tigris.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Your alliteration is in fine form as usual, Avon. Has anybody found anymore information on this one yet?

[USSoldier11B 0]

Killing Fields

Damn us imperialist self absorbed pig-headed Americans for smiting this regime from the face of the Earth. [/sarcasm]

[EiZei 0]

Killing Fields

Damn us imperialist self absorbed pig-headed Americans for smiting this regime from the face of the Earth. [/sarcasm]

Luckily US has always defended human rights and would have not tolerated a psycopath like Saddam not to mention support him.. EVER.

Right?

(note: I did not say I am against getting rid of Saddam, but the way this was handled from the beginning by all sides.. )

[denoir 0]

Killing Fields

Damn us imperialist self absorbed pig-headed Americans for smiting this regime from the face of the Earth. [/sarcasm]

Yeah, from being shot in the neck, Saddam style, they can now enjoy the electrical chair, Texas style. If they don't get killed by overzealous US troops or get blown up by Saddam loyalists first that is.  

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ](note: I did not say I am against getting rid of Saddam, but the way this was handled from the beginning by all sides.. )

I agree. If TBA would have said we are going to take Saddam out because he's an asshole,people might actually be ok with this war. I'm not proud of some of the things my government has done, especially during the cold war. That's the whole reason that the middle east if f%^ked up in the first place. We used ruthless men to take other ruthless men out of power. All I am saying is that I think most troops like me are concerned about:

1. Keeping our buddies alive

2. Protecting the innocent to the best of our capacity.

Anyway, that's how I would feel. I have compassion for the Iraqi people, and pity those who are fighting us because the coalition, the UN, or whoever decides to help can make Iraq a better place. Those who resist are only prolonging the suffering of their fellow citizens.

[quicksand 0]

who are the real terrorists?read the article bellow...should be intresting enough.....

<link removed>

could contain disturbing images for some of you...

Quote[/b] ]There are weapons of mass destruction all over Iraq and they were used this year. Iraqi children continue to find them every day.

They have ruined the lives of just under 300,000 people during the last decade - and numbers will increase.

The reason is simple. Two hundred tonnes of radioactive material were fired by invading US forces into buildings, homes, streets and gardens all over Baghdad.

"Depleted uranium has a half life of 4.7 billion years – that means thousands upon thousands of Iraqi children will suffer for tens of thousands of years to come. This is what I call terrorism," says Dr Ahmad Hardan.

I hope that TBA would read this..It would help them alot..Then they could say they found the WMD..And they we`re already used on iraquis..the only problem is that they are the ones who used them...

[theavonlady 2]

who are the real terrorists?read the article bellow...should be intresting enough.....

<link removed>

I wonder whether it's true.

I wonder whether the US has done nothing since the original Gulf War to reduce the health threat to the local population and to its own troops, after over a decade of assessing the risks.

edit: I was about to remove the link. Thanks, moderator!

[ozanzac 0]

About your link, mayby you should warn some people of the potentially disturbing images it contains. Especially after some of us have just eaten.

I don't condone the use of DU for general purposes, as for the Iraqi armored units present in the campaign, DU was overkill.

*Edit: By all means, post the story. Just not the images.*

[bn880 5]

Selective memory or selective respect?

(this is not exactly new but people might not be aware of it yet)

Pentagon has banned the showing of GI coffins returning home. The reason is to make sure support for the war does not drop. So let me ask you, since when is it the business of the military to push a war? And where is any sense of respect for the GI's? Are Americans incapable of understanding what is in the coffin and how it happened? Because that is what it looks like the US government thinks of US citizens.

Somehow though on several occations, like losses from terror attacks in the past the coffins were shown returning home at whitehouse request.

Anyway, to make a short story shorter, all you US dudes with all the balls you are so proud of should be ready to strangle who ever works in the Pentagon for something like this. Not to mention the rest of the govt.

Heh, at least CNN seems to be doing something about that

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

[Acecombat 0]

Yeah i read about this in Arab News ... really wierd do they think hiding coffins will hide the casaulty rate?

Does Terror Define Who Americans Are?

Tony Horwitz, The Washington Post

Source: Arab News

WASHINGTON, 2 November 2003 — On Columbus Day, I visited the Faro a Colon, Spanish for “Columbus Lighthouse,’’ a monument towering over Santo Domingo, the capital of the Dominican Republic. Completed in 1992 to mark the anniversary of Columbus’ arrival in the New World, the lighthouse encloses a crypt that is said to contain Columbus’ remains. But the Faro — eight stories high and roughly as long as a city block — is meant to honor not only the explorer, but also global unity. So Dominicans have offered space to embassies from around the world to put up exhibits of their choosing. The result is more than 60 rooms of national displays, in the manner of an old-fashioned World Exposition.

Most countries exhibit items that proudly reflect their heritage and history. China displays examples of calligraphy and a model of the world’s first printing press. Israel’s room includes an ancient menorah, while Brazil’s showcases brilliant Amazonian headdresses. Some displays are worth millions of dollars, such as Ecuador’s contribution of 2,500-year-old pottery. As I wandered the halls, I wondered how the US Embassy would choose to represent our own rich heritage in this unusual forum of international culture.

The US exhibit, put up during the past year, consists of two walls. One bears a few small photos of July 4 celebrations: Fireworks and flag-waving. The other wall, much more eye-catching, is covered in poster-sized front pages from US newspapers, all of them dated Sept. 12, 2001: DAY OF TERROR — Concord Monitor HOW MANY DEAD? — Arkansas Democrat-Gazette OUR NATION SAW EVIL — The News and Observer, Raleigh, N.C. WAR AT HOME — Dallas Morning News

No other items are on display. A museum guide registered the shock on my face and thought I was mourning the Sept. 11 dead. “You must think of it every day,’’ he said, shaking his head sympathetically.

It is a small thing, perhaps, a display in a Dominican museum. But for all the current talk about the importance of public diplomacy, the Columbus lighthouse reminded me that we can be astonishingly tone-deaf in the way we broadcast ourselves to the rest of the world, even to friendly nations such as the Dominican Republic.

Curious about the thinking behind the display, I phoned the US Embassy in Santo Domingo. A spokeswoman said the embassy’s cultural section had sent the posters (which were produced by the State Department) “so people can see and get in contact with Sept. 11.’’ In other words, an easy opportunity for cross-cultural understanding was lost to the excesses of flag-waving and Sept. 11 pain-sharing.

I was reminded of this when I visited a nearby public school to see what Dominican students learn about Columbus. The school has flooded toilets, no electricity, few textbooks and so many students that the school teaches three shifts each day, the last one ending at 9 p.m. Yet when I finished quizzing the students about Columbus, they asked questions of their own that made it clear they felt sorrier for me than I did for them.

“Do you still travel in airplanes?’’

“Are there terrorists everywhere?’’

“Is it safe for my brother to visit New York?’’

“Will they think he is a terrorist?’’

This view reflects not only what Dominicans see on television, but also their view of the US Embassy in Santo Domingo, a compound so heavily fortified and sealed off from the surrounding city that it looks as accessible and inviting as Alcatraz.

I returned home to Virginia in time to watch the World Series, which baseball-crazed Dominicans follow as avidly as we do. During the seventh-inning stretch in Florida, a uniformed US Air Force captain took the field and sang “God Bless America’’ in front of pilots in flight suits, while the TV camera panned to fans waving placards recalling Sept. 11.

“God Bless America’’ can be stirring, and the men looked sharp in their uniforms. But I wondered what message this performance sent to my Dominican friends and to millions of other viewers abroad. Isn’t the national anthem, which opens each ballgame, sufficient homage to America and its armed forces?

A patriot, according to the Random House dictionary, is “a person who loves, supports, and defends his country.’’ I’ve spent half my adult life overseas, and have frequently defended my country against the distorted images that others so often have of the United States. The “real America,’’ I’ve insisted a thousand or so times — in Arab souks, in Russian villages, in Australian pubs, in letters to the editors of foreign papers — isn’t the mindless, jingoistic, Humvee caricature of a culture that’s frequently presented in the foreign media, or in the crassest exports of Hollywood and Madison Avenue. It’s a vibrant, varied, open and warm society. Come visit and you’ll see for yourself!

I still believe this, but few outside America will if we continue to present ourselves, in even the most innocuous settings, as a militarized and self-absorbed people who are in a state of perpetual siege. That view is not only false, it diminishes us. Sept. 11, 2001, was a momentous and tragic event in our history.

It’s appropriate that our government work hard to protect the nation against future attacks. But homeland security shouldn’t define who we are, or how we appear to the rest of the world. We’re bigger than that, and better.

Some day soon, I hope, the US exhibit at the Faro a Colon will include a beacon of our own — a model of the Statue of Liberty, perhaps — as well as cultural artifacts that speak to the richness of our history. And maybe, by next year’s World Series, we can leave the patriotism behind by the seventh inning and go back to singing “Take Me Out to the Ballgame.’’

— Tony Horwitz is a former foreign correspondent for the Wall Street Journal and the author of “Blue Latitudes: Boldly Going Where Captain Cook Has Gone Before’’ (Picador).