The Iraq Thread 2

[ran 0]

Besides I wish the U.S. woud leave the U.N.. The U.N. is the biggest joke ever, I want nothing to do with them.

just a question ... do you know what the UNHCR , UNEP , UNODC , UNDP , UNMA and the UNICEF are ? (these are the only ones which spring out of my mind and vary in size)

not counting the numerous peacekeeping , interposition and observation operations UN took part in ... from the UNTSO in 1948 to the UNMIL last september ...

i had the occasion to participate in UNPROFOR (Bosnia Herzgovina , February 1993-December 1993) , UNOMUR (Rwanda , august 1994) , and i've also participated on short duties to UNPREDEP (Macedonia , august-september 1994)as french government envoye and more recently in MINURCA as advisor near the end of the mission (Central African Republic , january/february 2000)

a few months ago , i've been sent along french fast action force in congo to assist MONUC (democratic republic of congo , june to jully this year after serving under french command during first phases of operation ARTEMIS)

and in that i didn't include my time in the IFOR (NATO) and the other missions depending directly of my government

when you say the UN is worthless , i don't believe you , i've seen too much to believe it , how many mines the UNMAS has removed ? how many refugees the UNHCR has saved ?

how many people did we save in our peackeeping/interposition missions ?

the UN is not just only about starting wars

when you say french people are just a bunch of pansies (well , you didn't say it , but i'm sure that deep inside a large part of americans think that way) i can't accept that.

I've fought too much , lost too many friends , seen too many deaths , done too much to accept this kind of things to be said or thought

I am french and proud of it , I defy anybody who isn't happy with that to come here and to fight like a man

it's easy to spit this anti-french venom from behind the cover medias offer

but don't forget that without us you would have been fighting half naked in civilian clothes using sticks and pikes , thank us for the guns , thank us for the powder , thank us for the uniforms , thank us for the advisors , else you would be speaking english in a cheesy accent and drinking warm water everyday at 5 ....

and thank us also for the land we gave , without the "present" of Louisiana , no expansion to the west , you would have been stuck in trading with europe without anyopening to asia and south america

and don't go around waving the WW2 argument , we're gratefull , grateful for all the support , for the armored divisions you armed , for the equippement you drooped over France

but can't we say no anymore because of that ? of the two country , i think it's yours which owes the most to mine. you're the ones who should act wisely and carefully with your 200years of history (france has millenary roots and culture) europe has seen too much blood and mud on its own soil to agree blindly with the warmongering of some retarded texan leader.

we have the right to disagree with your policy , wether you like it or not

ad by the way , on the topic of WMD's ... remember , we have ICBM's ... and they aren't pointed towards Moscow anymore so beware ........

[Frisbee 0]

Just to refresh your selective memory,i've looked up Denoir's list about the UN accomplishments.

Quote[/b] ]

Oh, well, gee, I don't know. What about the 56 operations since 1948?

Completed:

AFRICA

Congo

July 1960–June 1964

Angola

Dec. 1988–May 1991

Namibia

April 1989–March 1990

Angola

May 1991–Feb. 1995

Somalia

April 1992–March 1993

Mozambique

Dec. 1992–Dec. 1994

Somalia

March 1993–March 1995

Rwanda/Uganda

June 1993–Sept. 1994

Liberia

Sept. 1993–Sept. 1997

Rwanda

Oct. 1993–March 1996

Chad/Libya

May–June 1994

Angola

Feb. 1995–June 1997

Angola

June 1997–Feb. 1999

Sierra Leone

July 1998–Oct. 1999

Central African Republic

April 1998–Feb. 2000

MIDEAST

Middle East—1st UN

Emergency Force

Nov. 1956–June 1967

Lebanon

June–Dec. 1958

Yemen

July 1963–Sept. 1964

Middle East—2nd UN

Emergency Force

Oct. 1973–July 1979

Iran/Iraq

Aug. 1988–Feb. 1991

AMERICAS

Dominican Republic

May 1965–Oct. 1966

Central America

Observer Group

Nov. 1989–Jan. 1992

El Salvador

July 1991–April 1995

Haiti

Sept. 1993–June 1996

Haiti

July 1996–July 1997

Guatemala

Jan.–May 1997

Haiti

Aug.–Nov. 1997

Haiti

Dec. 1997–March 2000

ASIA

West New Guinea

Oct. 1962–April 1963

India/Pakistan

Sept. 1965–March 1966

Afghanistan/Pakistan

May 1988–March 1990

Cambodia

Oct. 1991–March 1992

Cambodia

March 1992–Sept. 1993

Tajikistan

Dec. 1994–May 2000

East Timor

Oct. 1999–May 2002

EUROPE

Former Yugoslavia

Feb. 1992–March 1995

Croatia

March 1995–Jan. 1996

Former Yugoslavia

Rep. of Macedonia

March 1995–Feb. 1999

Bosnia & Herzegovina

Dec. 1995–Dec. 2002

Croatia

Jan. 1996–Jan. 1998

Croatia

Jan. 1998–Oct. 1998

Current:

AFRICA

Western Sahara

April 1991–present

Sierra Leone

Oct. 1999–present

Democratic Republic

of the Congo

Nov. 1999–present

Ethiopia and Eritrea

July 2000–present

Côte d'Ivoire

May 2003–present

Liberia

Oct. 2003–present

ASIA

India/Pakistan

Jan. 1949–present

East Timor

May 2002–present

EUROPE

Cyprus

March 1964–present

Georgia

Aug. 1993–present

Kosovo

June 1999–present

MIDDLE EAST

Middle East

May 1948–present

Golan Heights

June 1974–present

Lebanon

March 1978–present

Iraq/Kuwait

April 1991–present

Really,you spew forth this hate and contempt for france.

The french didn't go to war,perhaps because of personal reasons,the us went to war,because of personal reasons.

Nations you're allied with still have the right to think for their own,they don't have to nod at everything that you say.

Same with the UN,you have no idea how important the UN is,it's the main reason the world has been as peaceful as it has been in the last decades,but it has also done many other things which benefit people in general.

The UN isn't a joke at all as i see it.

[Longinius 1]

Ran just managed to give me new found respect for the French.

After countless business trips, meeting a multitude of rude taxi drivers and waiters I now know that deep down the French are actually good people (no sarcasm or pun intended, all though, quite a bit of humor).

Good post Ran.

[ran 0]

Ran just managed to give me new found respect for the French.

After countless business trips, meeting a multitude of rude taxi drivers and waiters I now know that deep down the French are actually good people (no sarcasm or pun intended, all though, quite a bit of humor).

Good post Ran.

i'm quite pissed at that french bashing , it became some kind a sport in the US media (the article by Julia Gorin for exemple , the Axis of weasels etc etc)

i've fought under these 4 flags

but there's only one i'm ready to give my life for, it's the first

[Apollo 0]

The French should just give up their damn Minitel ,then they could finnaly come in balanced number on Internet forum's to defend their oppinions.

But France Un-civilized??? Heck i'm Flemmish and even i am in awe for the French culture.

I'm Belgian ,i love good food ,good drink ,good live and cultivated woman.J'aime La France.

[ran 0]

The French should just give up their damn Minitel ,then they could finnaly come in balanced number on Internet forum's to defend their oppinions.    

But France Un-civilized??? Heck i'm Flemmish and even i am in awe for the French culture.

I'm Belgian ,i love good food ,good drink ,good live and cultivated woman.J'aime La France.  

Belgium ain't that bad either

beer , chocolate and french fries

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Belgium ain't that bad either

beer , chocolate and french fries

Were the axis of good food.  

Well ,it's definatly a fact that Belgium these days just almost always follows the French in foreign diplomacy.Not that chirac is that perfect ,then again the French themselfs do not always have that high regards of Chirac neither if i talk to them.

Though i must say ,it's much easier to understand French politic's once you understand French itself.From expierence i can say that French people tend to be very open and friendly to foreigners that speak their languaghe ,but much less to people that don't.

[miles teg 1]

First off, Im not Pick Axe, besides what would be the point? I would just get banned for having multiple accounts and would have to log out of one to post in the other. Sorry but Mr.Axe is a different fellow. I read somewhere where the Koran did tell to kill non muslims, also had a former muslims talk to us at church, do not think the religion is a peaceful as some might say.

Tex-Mex, there are tons of Christian fundamentalist websights that have HORRIBLY and I mean HORRIBLY distorted translations of the Quoran that aren't even close to the English translations that are widely agreed upon to be reliable.

It does not say in the Quoran anywhere to go out and kill Christians.  It does say such things about hypocrits and aetheists however...and even then it speaks of giving mercy to them if you read all the verses before and after them. (In other words reading in context and just not taking one verse and holding it up on its own).   Basically because of the mixed context, the meanings of these verses are a bit vague and contradictory sometimes...hence the reason for both pacifist and militant interpretations of these verses.

 

At any rate find me any such quote that shows where they advocate killing out of hand, non-Muslims and I'll be happy to refute it for you with a reliable translation approved by a wide range of respected Islamic scholars.  

That's not to say that there aren't idiot militant Islamic fundamentalists that also horrifically distort the Quoran in order to justify hatred, but they are the miniority.  They DO NOT represent Islam.   However with that said, more and more American actions in the Middle East are making even moderate Muslims in the region believe that they must do something to stop American imperialism, if not as Muslims then as Arabs.  

You say that you will never convince others here that disagree with you that Saddam was a threat to America...yet you haven't even tried.  I want to know what evidence it is that justifies your beliefs in your mind!!!  Or is is purely an emotional or racist view where you think Arabs or Muslims are inherently evil?  Is that what your church teaches you?

Oh and about your guest in Church that was a former Muslim.  I've talked to such people, and I can tell you that these people are morons who just dabble in Islam and don't know crap about Islam.  I've talked to a few like that and grilled them and they were incredibly ignorant of the religion and never seriously explored it except to find the most fundamentalist interpretations and believing that to be true Islam.  

I would highly recommend reading some of Fetullah Gulen's books on Islam.  They are by far some of the best I've read so far.  If you're seriously interested also I can recommend you several reputable translations of the Quoran to look up at your local bookstore rather then depending soley on Christian fundamentalist sources that intentionally pick out the worst and most militant translations and passing them off as representing all of Islam when in fact the authors of such translations are usually from fringe groups in Pakistan or some extremist Wahabi groups on the Arabian Peninsula.  

Also keep in mind that the Bible is also loaded with very primitive stuff about killing other groups.   Most Christians don't act upon those parts of the Old Testament thank God.

Similarily, most Muslims don't go around killing hypocrits or aetheists.  

Myself I am not Muslim, but I am studying the religion in order to understand from both an academic and spiritual perspective how Muslims view the world.  

So far it has been a very enlightening experience.  I'm not interested in becoming Muslim (I'm firmly agnostic), but I can most definitely understand where they are coming from on many matters and I can see where my fellow Americans have some serious misunderstandings about them.  

But back to Iraq...  

Again, I encourage you to think for yourself and not just believe everything you hear from fellow conservatives or Christians who are probably as ignorant about Islam as yourself (if not worse).   Go to the source of information unless you are too lazy.   If you simply do not care and prefer your neat and tidy world views, then you should not debate such matters that you simply do not know enough about.  

But I hope that you will do a bit of research...but not just to confirm your stereotypes, but rather, as in a scientific manner, to disconfirm them.    

I've looked for evidence supporting the invasion of Iraq and I simply can not find any.  It' just not there.

The only justification is to remove a tyrant... but that is not what we told the world we were invading Iraq for.  

I believe that would have been a noble purpose, but only with the assistance of the international community so that we would not end up being viewed as oil-hungry imperialists by the rest of the world, and more importantly by Muslims many of whom now view us as oppressors of Islam.

More and more we deepen this belief by our actions and thus suffer the reaction... which is attacks on our soldiers in Iraq, and possible attacks upon our nation and our citizens by the miniority group of Islamic militants willing to kill innocent civilians.  Our massive over-reactions to such attacks (that almost always kill many more innocent civilians then terrorists) then only encourages new recruits for such movements and only pushes more moderate Islamic groups to become more militant as they begin to see America unwilling to listen to them.  

It's dead-simple human psychology that creates these circles of violence.  It is a process of human behavior older then civilization.  It should be something that even someone like yourself should be able to grasp and understand easily.  

Yet this "circle of violence" phenomena is simiply ignored by conservatives such as yourself.  

All I can say is to not be surprised in the slightest at more and more attacks upon America.   We as a democracy are weak in that regard, and unless we scrap the constitution and become a totalitarian state where everyone lives in fear of "big brother", we will be extremely vulnerable to terrorist attacks within the United States.  

The various sniper incidents is an example of how some idiot with a rifle can cause widespread terror.   With all the guns in this country that is a major problem without even worrying about bombs and suicidal airplane pilots.  

Then we have stuff like huge cruise ships that go around the Caribbean unescorted... big huge targets for a suicide attack with a explosive-laden boat that would likely kill thousands of Americans.... yet no move to address that problem.  

Ditto for our vast open borders with Canada.   Even in the tightly patrolled border areas with Mexico, people still get across by the thousands each year.  

So we are one big vulnerable target... and yet we are just inviting terrorists to retaliate against us by our actions in Iraq.

It just makes no sense to me.

The Taliban in Afghanistan certainly had it coming and we had world support for our invasion there (due to clear and solid evidence), but what we're doing now in Iraq is a mess, and the oppression of Iraqis by US forces is only worsening as tougher policies are being enforced.

As I've stated before, we reap what we sow and Iraq is no exception.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[DracoPaladore 0]

MIDDLE EAST

Middle East

May 1948–present

Golan Heights

June 1974–present

Lebanon

March 1978–present

Iraq/Kuwait

April 1991–present

Just a question:

Wouldn't Afghanistan be considered a peace keeping operation? I know Canadians are still present, and I beleive Dutch and German forces are still there.

Or is just one that slipped from memory :P

[python3 0]

i dont think afghanistan is part of the middle east. Thats why its not on the ME list.

[Gollum1 0]

Bravo Ran! Touching. I'm saving that post!

[ran 0]

MIDDLE EAST

Middle East

May 1948–present

Golan Heights

June 1974–present

Lebanon

March 1978–present

Iraq/Kuwait

April 1991–present

Just a question:

Wouldn't Afghanistan be considered a peace keeping operation? I know Canadians are still present, and I beleive Dutch and German forces are still there.

Or is just one that slipped from memory :P

ISAF is a NATO business , that's why it's not in the list , (just like IFOR , SFOR and KFOR)

[GoOB 0]

Very good post Ran, you just made this whole thread worth-while for me.

And as far as Islam not being a "peaceful religeon" there is no such thing (except maybe Buddishm) people can always bend things to their own will. I mean look at the crusades and what was going on in Ireland just a year or so ago wich were mostly fought over religeon, how "peaceful" is Catholicism compared to Islam?

[miles teg 1]

Agreed... that's why I'm agnostic (I just believe in God...period. ). I believe once religion gets put into text, it gets interpreted a million different ways.

What many human beings can't seem to get through their thick heads is that religion is a deeply personal experience that you can not force upon others or mix with politics.

But sadly that's what happens. Heck I've seen even Buddhist monks in South Korea get pretty damn violent over some arguement over a temple.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

ISAF is a NATO business , that's why it's not in the list , (just like IFOR , SFOR and KFOR)

The list isn't current, that's why Afghanistan is not listed. There is however a strictly UN mission to Afghanistan, plus that ISAF is a NATO subcontract, so to say, to the UN. The UN has the mandate, but the practical implementation is delegated to NATO.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Okie Dokie.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

It is louzy, realy louzy what polls show during these days. Suddenly TBA has skyrocking results in the new polls. He is as popular as he was before the war.

Someone has to explain to me how the average american citizen evaluates the war in Iraq. It seems that noone was realy critical about this war because it was illegal as well as unjustified (concerning the initial intents). As it appears right now Criticism was uniquely directed towards the fact that Saddam was missing and that the country appeared unsafe.

Now that Saddam has been found it appears that all blame can be projected on him, and TBA is suddenly free of blame, angel-like.

Forgotten, the fact that this war was started for WMD with "fail-proof" indicators of their existance. Forgotten the fact that the UN was declared incapable of finding what MUST be there. It is christmas and George Bush a great President. Blame the little misfortune on Saddam, blame it on the frog-eaters, the muslim invaded Germany...and of course the Axis of evil. Oh and since Christmas is a religious feast.. muslims are to blame as well, ...kind of. "The war on teror is a time-consuming process that will cost lifes of american citizens ... bla bla bla"! What has Iraq to do with terorism? Please remind me!

And the media have thrown all objectivity overboard. The war has been relatively unbloody (true), it was started for WMD but people have been liberated (true), but considering the fact that this can become a common practice for justifying a war, well CNN is sparing us with that discussion! Just try to arrange yourself a list of countries that, in the future, can be potential targets of US-lead wars based on this argumentation. The intention of these wars might be noble (maybe it was) but to ignore international law is dangerous.

This was an unjustified war. A country was attacked for faked reasons. I will insist on my point of view and not ignore these facts just because Saddam has been captured and Iraq is free of a dictatorship!

Merry Christmas

[DracoPaladore 0]

Many Americans disagree with you Albert. Heck, I've even seen websites with "Pray for Bush" covered in Christian quotes and biblical sayings(Free Republican, anyone?). It only shows you how much people back the US governments. And so far, the only real big news source for the US is FOX from what I've seen.

Most people already have forgotten what the original intentions of the war were, so most don't really care. I bet most think that the only intention was to free the third world country from the evil dictatorship. And even with proof, most won't deviate away from that beleif.

[ran 0]

ISAF is a NATO business , that's why it's not in the list , (just like IFOR , SFOR and KFOR)

The list isn't current, that's why Afghanistan is not listed. There is however a strictly UN mission to Afghanistan, plus that ISAF is a NATO subcontract, so to say, to the UN. The UN has the mandate, but the practical implementation is delegated to NATO.

still , it's being taken care of by NATO

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I know that many americans saw the potential risk of the war in Iraq. And the consequences of a "bloody and unsuccessful war" might be just as dangerous as the one of a glorious one. But we are not talking about intellectual citizens here. We are not talking about americans that communicate on international fori, consume more than just Fox-news and well educated to understand the legal issues of this war. I am talking about the average citizen who is happy with any information that comes out of the white house, just because it is the white house and not some silly foreign UN-office.

In the future this uncritical behaviour will even grow stronger. From now on international press will be ingored by the average american simply because it considered as generally anti-american!

[Frisbee 0]

What kind of strikes me in speeches :

'We will ensure that all necesarry actions are taken to protect the American people'

'..American lives....'

etc,whereas I'm used to hear 'the general public','innocent bystanders' etc

Yeah,I didn't just notice this,but it did seem interesting.

Some hyper nationalism here,at least that's what is being played at.

[redliner47 0]

I, being a full blooded conservative republican realize that Bush is doing a shitty ass job at president, right now I wont choose a candidate because of their party. I plan on researching their past actions and making a decision upon that. Some presidents you can feel safe knowing that he will take care of your country, With Bush i do not feel this way sadly

[toadlife 3]

Quote[/b] ]It is louzy, realy louzy what polls show during these days. Suddenly TBA has skyrocking results in the new polls. He is as popular as he was before the war.

These polls you are refering to, are not 'skyrocketing'. It's just a predictable spike caused by Saddam being caught. They will go back down.

Quote[/b] ]Someone has to explain to me how the average american citizen evaluates the war in Iraq. It seems that noone was realy critical about this war because it was illegal as well as unjustified (concerning the initial intents). As it appears right now Criticism was uniquely directed towards the fact that Saddam was missing and that the country appeared unsafe.

Plenty of Americans were critical of the war because of the justification, but you are forgetting the Americans who never gave a crap about WMD in the first place. I personally never cared much for the WMD angle on things, and have allways felt that Bush should have made the 'tyrant' factor number one on the list of reasons for removing him, the 'tyrant' factor coupled with the fact that he had been thumbing his nose at the UN for 12 years would have been a more realistic approach, but Bush, with his tunnelvision googles on, got caight up in the whole WMD issue way too much. I don't nor have I ever given a rats ass about weather or not Saddam really had WMD. Removing him for the simple fact that he was a modern day Stalin (but probably meaner) was good enough for me.

The American people aren't the ones who pushed for Military Action based on there being 'proof' of Iraq's WMD's. That was the Bush Administration. Back in the Clinton days (1998) after Weapons inspectors left Iraq many Americans were all for going into Iraq, but Clinton didn't push the issue and three years later, it's as if the rest of the world had 'forgotten' about Iraq, and how they were repeatedly giving the finger to the world for 12 years.

Quote[/b] ]I know that many americans saw the potential risk of the war in Iraq. And the consequences of a "bloody and unsuccessful war" might be just as dangerous as the one of a glorious one. But we are not talking about intellectual citizens here. We are not talking about americans that communicate on international fori, consume more than just Fox-news and well educated to understand the legal issues of this war. I am talking about the average citizen who is happy with any information that comes out of the white house, just because it is the white house and not some silly foreign UN-office.

In the future this uncritical behaviour will even grow stronger. From now on international press will be ingored by the average american simply because it considered as generally anti-american!

So you are saying that any american who supported the war in Iraq is automatically an ignoramous?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Back in the Clinton days (1998) after Weapons inspectors left Iraq many Americans were all for going into Iraq, but Clinton didn't push the issue and three years later, it's as if the rest of the world had 'forgotten' about Iraq, and how they were repeatedly giving the finger to the world for 12 years.

and why? since the republican lead congress would not approve such military action. just look at Kosovo. Republicans were fuming that sending our troops there was a bad thing.

and then a few years later, they are claiming that TCA sis not do its job. basically, GOP forced TCA to stay at the corner, and then years later claim that TCA did not do this and that, when it was them who were blocking TCA from doing such thing.

[toadlife 3]

Back in the Clinton days (1998) after Weapons inspectors left Iraq many Americans were all for going into Iraq, but Clinton didn't push the issue and three years later, it's as if the rest of the world had 'forgotten' about Iraq, and how they were repeatedly giving the finger to the world for 12 years.

and why? since the republican lead congress would not approve such military action. just look at Kosovo. Republicans were fuming that sending our troops there was a bad thing.

Politics as usual. Now I remember why I've never registered with any political party.