The Iraq Thread 2

[Akira 0]

lol

I see Denoir still is easily sucked into the FSPilot vacuum...

[theavonlady 2]

I see Denoir still is easily sucked into the FSPilot vacuum...

Please do not cross-post!

Go to the time travel thread, if you want to discuss black holes.

[USSoldier11B 0]

Read the book "The Master Terrorist (the story of Abu Nidal)" It has somewhat drastically changed my negative attitude toward our actions in Iraq. The facts in the book are clearly documented and startling.

[theavonlady 2]

Read the book "The Master Terrorist (the story of Abu Nidal)" It has somewhat drastically changed my negative attitude toward our actions in Iraq. The facts in the book are clearly documented and startling.

Question: the book is a little ancient (published in 1987, by Avon Publishers ). How do you see it applying today?

[USSoldier11B 0]

Quote[/b] ]How do you see it applying today?

Because Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party are/were still pulling the strings.

[theavonlady 2]

Because Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath party are/were still pulling the strings.

Could you elaborate?

[turms 0]

Monday: 1 US soldier killed in a convoy attacked by RPG.

Car bomb exploded right next to the US HQ in Bagdad.

[FSPilot 0]

denoir

Quote[/b] ]You say that he was biased and yet you are unable to say how he was biased and what he is supposed to have done wrong. Are you sure it's not your pro-Bush bias that influences you?

Well he called people in TBA bastards for one, that's pretty biased if you ask me.

Quote[/b] ]Let's see. Blix and his team came to Iraq in january and were forced to left the end of March. The coallition came mid-April. Now it's mid July. So they have been in Iraq just about as long as Blix's team was.

Try 12 years.

Quote[/b] ]He did. All the time.

Just too bad he couldn't prove it. I find it hard to believe that one of the most advanced countries in the middle east wouldn't document the spending of dismantling a weapons program.

Quote[/b] ]Do you understand that 300 pages can't be summarized in 20 minutes if you are going to include all the information of minor importance. The drones were deemed to be of minor importance by Blix and the 20 minutes were spent describing more urgent findings and estimates of Iraqi cooperation.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand how these drones are of minor importance.

NurEinMensch

Quote[/b] ]He was biased? How was he biased?

keep reading.

Quote[/b] ]Or maybe, only maybe there is nothing to find. No hidden stockpiles of tons of WMD, delivery systems (45 minutes remember), uran... you name it.

And if that is the case make up your mind: Did your government get your beloved country in a war with false evidence, lies and fake? Do you like to be treated like sheep?

Or will you stand up and say "NO"?

Yaay, fight the power, say no to war! <span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>unless a democrat is president</span>

Unless someone proves that the president lied to the country about this I'll still support this invasion. WMDs or not, Saddam was a horrible person, I think that's more than enough reason to take him out of power. He only slaughtered a million of his own people, that's genocide.

Quote[/b] ]Hearsay on FOX news doesnt count. Read what the experts said about the drones. Until you don't know the real facts stop making accusations.

If I remember right a video tape isn't hearsay. Maybe you should start reading more than just my headlines.

[theavonlady 2]

Unless someone proves that the president lied to the country about this I'll still support this invasion.  WMDs or not, Saddam was a horrible person, I think that's more than enough reason to take him out of power.  He only slaughtered a million of his own people, that's genocide.

There are terrible rulers all over the world. Are you advocating that the US as a general policy should should risk the lives of their military personnel to remove such people from power, even when they are of no threat to the US? (I am not saying that Hussein wasn't).

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Hearsay on FOX news doesnt count. Read what the experts said about the drones. Until you don't know the real facts stop making accusations.

If I remember right a video tape isn't hearsay. Maybe you should start reading more than just my headlines.

I recall that this was one of the video presentations presented by Powell at the UN and that the clip was also available at the time from the White House or State Dept. web site.

This is a new ridiculous habit: "Fox News doesn't count".

[FallenPaladin 0]

Well he called people in TBA bastards for one, that's pretty biased if you ask me.

Let`s do it your way and just with one of your statements. Would work with any of yours.

Where are the links? Where`s your proof?

[booradley60 0]

The arguments seem to reciprocate.  I think this same discussion occured twenty pages ago.  Are you guys sure that you aren't just copying and pasting?

And why does everybody keep arguing with each other?  The same people have been doing it since I started reading the forums.  *cough*FSPilot*cough*Denoir...etc. Don't you know you can't sway each other's views?   Let's find something to agree on.  Who all believes in a religion?  Many religions share many views.  That could be a level playing field for you all to plead your cases.  If you can justify a war religiously, I'd like to hear how.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The arguments seem to reciprocate.  I think this same discussion occured twenty pages ago.  Are you guys sure that you aren't just copying and pasting?

And why does everybody keep arguing with each other?  The same people have been doing it since I started reading the forums.  *cough*FSPilot*cough*Denoir...etc.  Don't you know you can't sway each other's views?   Let's find something to agree on.  Who all believes in a religion?  Many religions share many views.  That could be a level playing field for you all to plead your cases.  If you can justify a war religiously, I'd like to hear how.

We all agree that Lo-Mac looks awesome.

[denoir 0]

Try 12 years.

No, not Blix. His term was this latest one. During the previous UNMOVIC mission that ended with the withdrawal in 1998 the inspectors destroyed much more WMD than were destroyed during GW1.

The latest search for WMD started in january 2003. The coallition forces have all the data from the previous inspections which should do their job much easier.

Quote[/b] ]Just too bad he couldn't prove it. I find it hard to believe that one of the most advanced countries in the middle east wouldn't document the spending of dismantling a weapons program.

They did document it, but apparently not good enough for the UNMOVIC. There were some still unaccounted stuff. Most of it was documented though.

WMD weapon programs require an extensive infrastructure. It can't be dismantled instantly. Had removing WMD been a last minute action there would be tons of evidence. You can't just bury that stuff into the ground. Transporting it would require special vehicles etc and would quickly be tracked by satellite.

The odd fact is that *nothing* has been found. No remains of their old programs. No forgotten chemicals. No abandoned laboratories. This would indicate that there was a very extensive dismantling process well before the war.

Perhaps Saddam was telling the truth. Perhaps we were too blinded by his previous actions so we refused to se the reality.

I don't know, but the moment the war was over the WMD justification was invalidated. If Saddam did have WMD, he didn't use them even in his final hour. That shows that he was not the clear and present danger that the TBA and Blair tried to make him.

[theavonlady 2]

@ July 14 2003,17:57)]We all agree that Lo-Mac looks awesome.

Is that a new stealth burger at McDonalds?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ July 14 2003,17:57)]We all agree that Lo-Mac looks awesome.

Is that a new stealth burger at McDonalds?

Hehe

[denoir 0]

Unless someone proves that the president lied to the country about this I'll still support this invasion.

The most obvious and current thing is the Niger Uranium claim. Or if you want a broader perspective, go through Powell's UN presentation. He presented the case for one hour and made numerous points of which many have been proven wrong and none have been proven right.

So, FS, even you must agree that the story we were told before the war and the reality now don't really match. In your opinion was it incompetence or deception?

[booradley60 0]

It's amazing how "facts" can differ so much from one person to the other. Are they really facts at all? I'm going to put in my two cents. War was wrong. There were so many ways to avoid war. The only way to justify killing is in self-defense. Unfortunately, a lot of people feel threatened in this world and (out of what I call laziness and stupidity) decide that a finger on a trigger is easier to operate than a brain in the skull. It's not shameful to be an American, it's shameful to be a human being. We continuously fight over things such as land and money and place life's importance below that of a dollar. All other species live to survive and carry on their kind. We, on the other hand, live to conquer and maim and destroy our own kind (not to mention the planet that supports us). I know I sound like a hippie, but I'm not under the influence of LSD. I'm just saying that we could do so much more for each other than we are doing if only we applied our minds and hearts instead of our guns and bombs.

Hopefully somebody will agree with me and not say I'm out of touch with reality. If you'll excuse me, I'm executing a multi-platoon armored assault on a townful of civilians. Peace.

[FSPilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]There are terrible rulers all over the world. Are you advocating that the US as a general policy should should risk the lives of their military personnel to remove such people from power, even when they are of no threat to the US? (I am not saying that Hussein wasn't).

Yes, I think we should start getting rid of genocidal rulers, but no I don't think we should waste American lives doing it.

I wan't to have my cake, eat it, and have it be low fat.

Quote[/b] ]This is a new ridiculous habit: "Fox News doesn't count".

To be fair, I don't think the BBC, LA times, or new york times count seeing what they've done.

Until someone proves Fox news to be maliciously altering the content of their broadcasts they're trustworthy.

FallenPaladin

Quote[/b] ]Where are the links? Where`s your proof?  

Denoir already posted a link to this.

booradley60

Quote[/b] ]If you can justify a war religiously, I'd like to hear how.

denoir

Quote[/b] ]No, not Blix. His term was this latest one. During the previous UNMOVIC mission that ended with the withdrawal in 1998 the inspectors destroyed much more WMD than were destroyed during GW1.

The latest search for WMD started in january 2003. The coallition forces have all the data from the previous inspections which should do their job much easier.

The UN has been looking for these weapons since the end of the last gulf war.

Quote[/b] ]You can't just bury that stuff into the ground.

Actually an Iraqi scientist did come forward with components of Iraq's nuclear program that he, literally, buried in his backyard.

Quote[/b] ]The odd fact is that *nothing* has been found. No remains of their old programs. No forgotten chemicals. No abandoned laboratories. This would indicate that there was a very extensive dismantling process well before the war.

They have found some vehicles that could only be used for a WMD program.  Didn't you see the illustrations?

Quote[/b] ]That shows that he was not the clear and present danger that the TBA and Blair tried to make him.

or that he ordered them to be moved or destroyed before he could use them

Quote[/b] ]The most obvious and current thing is the Niger Uranium claim. Or if you want a broader perspective, go through Powell's UN presentation. He presented the case for one hour and made numerous points of which many have been proven wrong and none have been proven right.

So, FS, even you must agree that the story we were told before the war and the reality now don't really match. In your opinion was it incompetence or deception?

I think if it was deception someone would of come forward with information about it.  So it was probably incompetence.  The CIA's not exactly the best intelligence agency out there anymore.

[NurEinMensch 0]

In response to booradley60:

I share the basical feeling you have but you are out of touch with reality.  

The rest of mother nature isn't actually living in peace together like in a Disney movie, more like survival of the fittest, constant changes and adaption and, well, alot of brutal killing and fighting for resources no matter what - just like we humans do.

But we consider ourselves higher than animals and plants and we can use our brain for more than figureing out how to scratch our head.

[bn880 5]

We continuously fight over things such as land and money and place life's importance below that of a dollar. All other species live to survive and carry on their kind. We, on the other hand, live to conquer and maim and destroy our own kind (not to mention the planet that supports us). I know I sound like a hippie, but I'm not under the influence of LSD. I'm just saying that we could do so much more for each other than we are doing if only we applied our minds and hearts instead of our guns and bombs.

Hopefully somebody will agree with me and not say I'm out of touch with reality. If you'll excuse me, I'm executing a multi-platoon armored assault on a townful of civilians. Peace.

Yep, I think I can agree with that. And I know I'm not the only one.

EDIT: And what NurEin says about Nature I agree with as well, it's just that we should be able to use our brains to be a little more constructive and cooperative.

[booradley60 0]

I knew that was coming but I'm not out of touch with reality because in reality nobody tries to make something like that possible.  I was just trying to put a few things in perspective but knew that I was going to get those responses.  I know that last post was overly-utopianized, but I figured at least maybe two or three people in here would have some religious background to touch on. By that, I mean most religions want to strive for that kind of harmony by people to their fellow man.  And FSPilot, thanks for taking that quote completely out of context.  I admire your talent for it.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]They have found some vehicles that could only be used for a WMD program. Didn't you see the illustrations?

Those vehicles can be used as laboratories to analyze specimen from battlefield concerning WMDs.Finish army has similar vehiocles also,that doesnt proove that Finland has wmds.

[FSPilot 0]

I'd have to look at the individual vehicles to determine that. I'm just saying what I saw on the news.

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]Actually an Iraqi scientist did come forward with components of Iraq's nuclear program that he, literally, buried in his backyard.

IAEA has said that its not a smoking gun,are they biased?

CNN

"The findings refer to material and documents of the pre-1991 Iraqi nuclear weapons program that have been well-known to the agency," said spokesman Mark Gwozdecky.

[ebud 18]

I knew that was coming but I'm not out of touch with reality because in reality nobody tries to make something like that possible.  I was just trying to put a few things in perspective but knew that I was going to get those responses.  I know that last post was overly-utopianized, but I figured at least maybe two or three people in here would have some religious background to touch on.  By that, I mean most religions want to strive for that kind of harmony by people to their fellow man.  And FSPilot, thanks for taking that quote completely out of context.  I admire your talent for it.

I don't think anyone would disagree with you about that being something to work towards, and I think maybe in a few hundred years, maybe your vision (and that of millions of other people) may begin to see the light of day. But you can't put on blinders, hold hands and sing songs and hope the world becomes a better place. In certain instances only the threat of force, or the execution of it will get any results. Granted, diplomacy is the best option, but unfortunatly it seems to be a lost art. Also some rulers/countries/regimes/evil dictators just can't be reasoned with. Look at the millions dead from civil wars in the African countries. Do you think anything short of going in and busting some heads will ever resolve a situation like that?

I totally agree with you that no one "likes" war and diplomacy should be the main tool in conflict resolution, and we should all be working toward a greater good, but it's unrealistic to think this will happen anytime soon, or that the majority of the world wouldn't look at a stance like that as weakness.

Just my opinion. I'm a "glass half empty" type.