The Dogs of War

[turms 0]

scene from a camera in the hotel

Oh bytheway othin,I am still waiting your sources revealing the WMDs of iraq.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 09 2003,20:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just out of curiosity, how many people still feel (after watching the reactions of the Iraqi people today) that WMD still need to be foundin order to justify this war?<span id='postcolor'>

I thinkt that even if they found WMD this war would have been unjustified.<span id='postcolor'>

You don't support the use of force to overthrow evil regimes then?

Don't take this negatively, I'm just curious what your thoughts are.

Being a European, I would have thought you would be the first person to support such an action seeing as less than 60 years ago, another coalition did this very same thing for the Europeans.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 09 2003,22:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Geraldo Rivera gets "Stink-Palmed" in Iraq

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Staley went on to say, "A handful of troops here wanted pictures with G and autographs. A few shook his hand. Others here wanted to harm him, were disgusted with him, thought he should have been sent home in a Humvee (a 40-hour drive south through the desert).

"We later found out a few who shook his hand had put those hands in unmentionable places prior. Army justice?"

<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/5581200.htm<span id='postcolor'>

I think it's fortunate (for Geraldo that is) that he didn't get near a real firefight during his time in Afghanistan or Iraq. Because if he did, I'd say that during the confusion and hustle of the battle, there's an even chance that he'd be involved in a hand grenade 'accident'.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 10 2003,00:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Being a European, I would have thought you would be the first person to support such an action seeing as less than 60 years ago, another coalition did this very same thing for the Europeans.<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong you know! The coalition were called allies and they consisted of men and women from the occupied as well as the still independent nations. There is no similarity between the allies and "the coalition of the willing" . You claim to be a coalition of nations willing to invade Iraq when the allies goal was to throw out an invading aggressor. Or do you imply that US (and possibly Australia and New Zealand) where the only ones saving Europe because you where not occupied yet - as in YOU liberated the european continent?

Of course, we europeans just sat there doing nothing when all you american boys liberated us all by yourself!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 10 2003,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You claim to be a coalition of nations willing to invade Iraq when the allies goal was to throw out an invading aggressor.<span id='postcolor'>

There weren't exactly a whole lot of cries for an armistice when the Allies started driving into Germany, dig?

[Guest]

We'll take this discussion in the other thread

[PFC Mongoose 0]

Edit: Mongoose SMRT.

Moved post to proper thread.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 09 2003,15:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">scene from a camera in the hotel

Oh bytheway othin,I am still waiting your sources revealing the WMDs of iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

First, what is that picture supposed to represent? I'm not trying to be contentious but it's not very clear. There is a three and what looks like an explosion?

And "by the way" Turms, if you had read my post where I claimed that Iraq has WMD (which it does) you would know that I'm going to follow in the fine tradition of posters hereabouts and not reveal my sources.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ April 10 2003,05:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it's fortunate (for Geraldo that is) that he didn't get near a real firefight during his time in Afghanistan or Iraq. Because if he did, I'd say that during the confusion and hustle of the battle, there's an even chance that he'd be involved in a hand grenade 'accident'.  <span id='postcolor'>

He got a different type of hand grenade.

[Tovarish 0]

Yeah. hey, wouldn't that constitute chemical/biological warfare?

[turms 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ April 10 2003,00:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 09 2003,154)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">scene from a camera in the hotel

Oh bytheway othin,I am still waiting your sources revealing the WMDs of iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

First, what is that picture supposed to represent?  I'm not trying to be contentious but it's not very clear.  There is a three and what looks like an explosion?

And "by the way" Turms, if you had read my post where I claimed that Iraq has WMD (which it does) you would know that I'm going to follow in the fine tradition of posters hereabouts and not reveal my sources.<span id='postcolor'>

It is a tank firing to the hotel where the reporters were killed.

And if you want to judge my english,we can talk also in Finnish,wich I doubt you cant.

As for the sources of yours, I wasnt trying to get you to reveal your secret sources,I was only wondering when is the

publication of the evidence(wich you lack) is going to be?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 10 2003,00:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ April 10 2003,00:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 09 2003,15<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">scene from a camera in the hotel

Oh bytheway othin,I am still waiting your sources revealing the WMDs of iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

First, what is that picture supposed to represent?  I'm not trying to be contentious but it's not very clear.  There is a three and what looks like an explosion?

And "by the way" Turms, if you had read my post where I claimed that Iraq has WMD (which it does) you would know that I'm going to follow in the fine tradition of posters hereabouts and not reveal my sources.<span id='postcolor'>

It is a tank firing to the hotel where the reporters were killed.

And if you want to judge my english,we can talk also in Finnish,wich I doubt you cant.

As for the sources of yours, I wasnt trying to get you to reveal your secret sources,I was only wondering when is the

publication of the evidence(wich you lack) is going to be?<span id='postcolor'>

No one denied the tank fired at the hotel. Everyone agrees it did.

What is in dispute is if the tank fired the shot that killed the two reporters on the 15th floor.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 09 2003,15:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is a tank firing to the hotel where the reporters were killed.

And if you want to judge my english,we can talk also in Finnish,wich I doubt you cant.

As for the sources of yours, I wasnt trying to get you to reveal your secret sources,I was only wondering when is the

publication of the evidence(wich you lack) is going to be?<span id='postcolor'>

Hey now, I didn't attack your english, nor would I attack anyones english. I just didn't understand what that picture was showing. Some of us may not have seen that video clip...

[Akira 0]

Iraq UN envoy- Game is Over

ie...war is over according to this.

[FSPilot 0]

Anybody who saw the interview with that envoy would know he was really aggitated and just saying stuff to get the media out of his hair. They were practically harassing him at the door to his office. I'm surprised they've bitten onto it like this.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 10 2003,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is in dispute is if the tank fired the shot that killed the two reporters on the 15th floor.<span id='postcolor'>

They have it on video. What's to dispute? Tank fires, room gets blasted, camera captures all. You can't get better evidence then that.

Unless you want to claim the following

1) The fired an empty package, without the shell or the shell magically disappeared in mid air (the barrel of the main gun was pointed directly at the room with the camera)

2) The Iraqis somehow managed to fire a missile/shell that impacted the precise point at which the tank barrel was pointing and at the precise time when the tank shell would have impacted.

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 10 2003,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 10 2003,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is in dispute is if the tank fired the shot that killed the two reporters on the 15th floor.<span id='postcolor'>

They have it on video. What's to dispute? Tank fires, room gets blasted, camera captures all. You can't get better evidence then that.

Unless you want to claim the following

1) The fired an empty package, without the shell or the shell magically disappeared in mid air (the barrel of the main gun was pointed directly at the room with the camera)

2) The Iraqis somehow managed to fire a missile/shell that impacted the precise point at which the tank barrel was pointing and at the precise time when the tank shell would have impacted.<span id='postcolor'>

well, some people disputed the fact that Americans had landed at the Baghdad airport and that they were in the city of Baghdad. and oh by the way, that was on video too

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ April 10 2003,03:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, some people disputed the fact that Americans had landed at the Baghdad airport and that they were in the city of Baghdad.  and oh by the way, that was on video too <span id='postcolor'>

True, but I don't think that the Iraqi minister of information has a vote in this thread

[Harnu 0]

wow! I just saw something on MSNBC of a 21,000lbs bomb that arrived in Iraq today. They had a computer animation of how they intend to use it, it has to be dropped off from the back of a C130!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 10 2003,03:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ April 10 2003,038)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">well, some people disputed the fact that Americans had landed at the Baghdad airport and that they were in the city of Baghdad.  and oh by the way, that was on video too <span id='postcolor'>

True, but I don't think that the Iraqi minister of information has a vote in this thread <span id='postcolor'>

What? Does that mean he's banned?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 10 2003,02:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 10 2003,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is in dispute is if the tank fired the shot that killed the two reporters on the 15th floor.<span id='postcolor'>

They have it on video. What's to dispute? Tank fires, room gets blasted, camera captures all. You can't get better evidence then that.

Unless you want to claim the following

1) The fired an empty package, without the shell or the shell magically disappeared in mid air (the barrel of the main gun was pointed directly at the room with the camera)

2) The Iraqis somehow managed to fire a missile/shell that impacted the precise point at which the tank barrel was pointing and at the precise time when the tank shell would have impacted.<span id='postcolor'>

Did you read the article?

[turms 0]

This is absurd,the article stated 2 ifs,nothing more,and the ifs are:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it's only the masonry that's been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well im no expert on the shells used in abrams,but somewhere from this thread i red about the shells used by abrams,and the conclusion was that they lack a deasent "exploding ammo"

If the ammo fired in the hotel was a sabot,it would explain the minimal damage (havent seen any pictures of the damage though)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don't think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons."

<span id='postcolor'>

As you can see from the link I posted this is not the fact.

These are the only evidences supplyed by that article.

Enough to raise a doubt? Not in here..

Edit: note that no other gunfire was heard by the reporters or catched in the cameras microphone..

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 10 2003,03:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it's only the masonry that's been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well im no expert on the shells used in abrams,but somewhere from this thread i red about the shells used by abrams,and the conclusion was that they lack a deasent "exploding ammo"

If the ammo fired in the hotel was a sabot,it would explain the minimal damage (havent seen any pictures of the damage though)<span id='postcolor'>

I saw a video of it on SkyNews here:

Report

They show video of the shot. One tank was behind some trees, and the other looks like it is just off camera. Then there is a rather large shake and smoke and dirt come up from the floor below. Seemed like a good size explosion, but obviously not a major one. But they also show video of the inside and there are glass doors with glass still in them, but severly cracked. So don't know. Looked pretty big, but not enough to send large amounts of glass flying. *shrug*

The SkyNews reporter also said no gunfire was heard. He also said that they were firing around the hotel as well, some on the left some on the right. The reporter says it could have been "an unlucky shot" or misplaced shot.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don't think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons."

<span id='postcolor'>

As you can see from the link I posted this is not the fact.

<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not quite sure what he meant by that, if it was the angle of the shot entered the room or what. Looking for maps and the like just to see....for "shits and giggles" you might say.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well im no expert on the shells used in abrams,but somewhere from this thread i red about the shells used by abrams,and the conclusion was that they lack a deasent "exploding ammo"

If the ammo fired in the hotel was a sabot,it would explain the minimal damage (havent seen any pictures of the damage though)

<span id='postcolor'>

If the tank did engage the hotel (which i think it did), it used HEAT ammo. Not designed specifically for soft targets, and therefore has limited HE capacity. If the tank had engaged the hotel with a sabot round, there would most likely be an exit wound, if you know what i mean.

[PFC_Mike 2]

So what has happened to Baghdad Bob? I hope he isn't dead, his testimony at a war crimes trial would be hilarious.

Do you suppose that there is really a "Battle of the Bunkers" below Baghdad? Debkafile seems to think that's where the real fighting is.