The Dogs of War

[PFC_Mike 2]

Saddam's bunkers were built and desgined by German engineers. (LA Times)

Saddam's nuclear reactor was built by the French (destroyed by the Israelis before its completion, thank god/allah/yhwh)

The A-10 shot down today was destroyed by a French missle (AP)

The M1's that didn't crash into canals were destroyed by Russian AT-14's.

Is it just me, or is there a trend between arming a dicator and then desperately trying to keep him in power? I'm appalled at the US weapons sales/gifts to the South Vietnamese, the contras, and the Iranians. I hope that some of the French, German, and Russian people on this forum feel the same way about this, especially considering that they invoked the UN to defend Saddam as they ignored the embargo.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ April 09 2003,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The M1's that didn't crash into canals were destroyed by Russian AT-14's.<span id='postcolor'>

Technically they were "destroyed" by RPG-7's. The hits caused fires that could not be put out. So the crew saved themselves by bailing out before the 120mm SABOT shells started cooking off.

PS: Don't say they are RUSSIAN RPGs, because everyone makes RPGs or some variant or copy. I'm not defending the actions of the UN or the Russians/French/Germans, I'm just adding to your argument.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ April 09 2003,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hope that some of the French, German, and Russian people on this forum feel the same way about this, especially considering that they invoked the UN to defend Saddam as they ignored the embargo.<span id='postcolor'>

Those weapons were sold in the '80s when everybody was friends with Saddam. There have been unsubstantiated claims that Ukraine has been selling arms to Iraq after the sanctions, but no proof has been provided.

That's the real world. We are all now arming other dictators in the world, without thinking a second about it.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What exactly is "pulling an FSPilot"?<span id='postcolor'>

Seems to have come into the forum lexicon recently. It's synonmous with inflexability and or blind following.

No offense there FS.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If somebody drops 4 JDAMSs then I doubt that they can keep in touch. <span id='postcolor'>

Umm...hello? If you were in touch with someone and then 4 JDAMS fell on them...would you go looking for them hoping they would be alive?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mean like WW2? Yes we all remember that the war was over as soon as Hitler was dead.   Yeah right.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">30 April 1945,

Adolf Hitler, Eva Braun, Goebbels and his wife commit suicide in the bunker under the Reich Chancellery in Berlin, Germany.

7 May 1945,

General Alfried Jodl signs the unconditional German nation surrender document at Rheims, France, in order of the new Government Doenitz.<span id='postcolor'>

Pretty damn close. The war in Europe was over when Hitler was killed. Yeah that argument of yours made sense

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They sure would not be driving busloads of reporters to the place (yes they took them there) if there was a possibility that Saddam's curshed head would emerge from the rubble.<span id='postcolor'>

I know they took them there. I've seen the videos, and pictures.

Why wouldn't they? You think after 4 JDAMS anything resembling an identifiable (as in a specific person) piece of human is going to be extracted? A torso as you said. Who wouldn't pass up the propoganda opportunity to pull out dead civilians for the media? Even if they do turn over a rock and there is Saddam's head. Ten to one says they say "Yes you see. They have killed a double! We know exactly where Saddam is. Here....let me cue that tape for you."

[PFC_Mike 2]

RPG-7's can come from anywhere. But AT-14? I think that Russia was complicit, if not directly involved.

I don't recall the US giving nukes to friendly dictators. To friendly democracies (Israel) perhaps, but the South Vietnamese, Koreans, and French never got any out of us.

By the way, the France joke does have some basis in reality-the French wanted a massive US nuclear strike on VM positions during Dienbienphu. Didn't happen, becuase we're not insane.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 09 2003,01:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If somebody drops 4 JDAMSs then I doubt that they can keep in touch. <span id='postcolor'>

Umm...hello? If you were in touch with someone and then 4 JDAMS fell on them...would you go looking for them hoping they would be alive?<span id='postcolor'>

They would have no way of knowing what happened. They would only have lost contact and then rushed to figure out what was going on.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why wouldn't they? You think after 4 JDAMS anything resembling an identifiable (as in a specific person) piece of human is going to be extracted? A torso as you said. Who wouldn't pass up the propoganda opportunity to pull out dead civilians for the media? Even if they do turn over a rock and there is Saddam's head. Ten to one says they say "Yes you see. They have killed a double! We know exactly where Saddam is. Here....let me cue that tape for you."<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah right.   Please don't tell me that Iraqi propagand would like to show the head of a dead Saddam double. And yes, they found identifiable parts like a torso and a head of the same woman. If the Iraqi government even slightly suspected that Saddam had been there they would not let anybody in the area, least reporters.

What do you have to support your claim? A statement from CentCom saying that they don't know but that they hope that they hit some Iraqi leaders. Very strong evidence Akira.

There has been no evidence whatsoever that Saddam was even within a radius of 1,000 km, much less that he was in the building. There are however indicative factors that he wasn't. And yet you choose to believe the unsubstantiated, improbable, unverified theory.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pretty damn close. The war in Europe was over when Hitler was killed. Yeah that argument of yours made sense <span id='postcolor'>

No it wasn't it took a week before Germany surrendered. The war didn't end the instant Hitler died.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ April 09 2003,01:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RPG-7's can come from anywhere. But AT-14? I think that Russia was complicit, if not directly involved.

I don't recall the US giving nukes to friendly dictators. To friendly democracies (Israel) perhaps, but the South Vietnamese, Koreans, and French never got any out of us.

By the way, the France joke does have some basis in reality-the French wanted a massive US nuclear strike on VM positions during Dienbienphu. Didn't happen, becuase we're not insane.<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed, had Ike ever have gone through with a nuclear strike, China probably would have intervened and it would be another Korean War-esque scenario, less than a year after the first one.

Actually, when the Marines were widthdrawing from Korea in '53 many thought that their next mission would be to bail the French out in Indochina.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What do you have to support your claim? A statement from CentCom saying that they don't know but that they hope that they hit some Iraqi leaders. Very strong evidence Akira.

There has been no evidence whatsoever that Saddam was even within a radius of 1,000 km, much less that he was in the building. There are however indicative factors that he wasn't. And yet you choose to believe the unsubstantiated, improbable, unverified theory.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not supporting a "claim". All I'm saying is there is no reason for the bodyguards to show up. I never said I believed Saddam was there or not. I hope he was, but there is no proof he was. You're arguing a point against me that I never even stated.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it wasn't it took a week before Germany surrendered. The war didn't end the instant Hitler died. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes thank you. I know as evidenced by the dates I inserted and you obviously didn't bother to look at.

I didn't say the war would end the instant he was dead. But to think the war would continue is just as ludicrous as the statement you seem to think I made.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PFC_Mike @ April 09 2003,01:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">RPG-7's can come from anywhere. But AT-14?<span id='postcolor'>

Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Syria, and possibly Lybia and Sudan

*edit* and looks like one by one they're all being accused of providing them. First it was Russia the finger was being pointed at, then Belarus and Syria, now it's Ukraine

Don't think that because it's a brand new toy a lot of people won't have it. I haven't seen any evidence to support it, but truly I'd be surprized if India and China don't have it as well. Either way this war is the best advertisement the creators of the Kornet could have hoped for.

[Akira 0]

British Intelligence Saying Saddam Not In Building

Hopefully they didn't get their information from a graduate student this time!

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense there FS.<span id='postcolor'>

None taken. Especially since Denoir, the epitome of fluidity came up with it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They would have no way of knowing what happened. They would only have lost contact and then rushed to figure out what was going on.<span id='postcolor'>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a 12 second delay on "bunker busters"? Wouldn't the people on the phone say something like "HOLY CRAP! ITS A BUNKER BUSTER! IT LANDED HERE LIKE 11 SECONDS A-*static*"

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 09 2003,03:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"HOLY CRAP!  ITS A BUNKER BUSTER!  IT LANDED HERE LIKE 11 SECONDS A-*static*"<span id='postcolor'>

OK....that just cracked me up...

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ April 09 2003,02:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offense there FS.<span id='postcolor'>

None taken.  Especially since Denoir, the epitome of fluidity came up with it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They would have no way of knowing what happened. They would only have lost contact and then rushed to figure out what was going on.<span id='postcolor'>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a 12 second delay on "bunker busters"?  Wouldn't the people on the phone say something like "HOLY CRAP!  ITS A BUNKER BUSTER!  IT LANDED HERE LIKE 11 SECONDS A-*static*"<span id='postcolor'>

I think it was two pairs of 2000lb JDAMs.

The media instantly starting calling them 'Bunker Busters' after someone mentioned a GBU-28.

When it was revealed they were JDAMs, the presenters insisted on calling them 'Bunker Busters', which incidently was winding the defense analysts up a treat. When they showed a cutout of a GBU28 for the tenth time, I thought their heads were going to explode!

Although there are 2000lb penetrator Mk84's with JDAM kits, they are not classed as bunker busters, so anyone in the building would have been vapourised pretty quickly.

(And if a GBU 28 did come hammering in, you wouldn't be in a position to speak. The extreme change in air pressure, can do nasty things to your body.... and then it explodes!

[PFC_Mike 2]

Thank you Denoir for clearing up the fact that they weren't bunker-busters. That was the headline in the LA times and I couldn't figure why you'd need them against a little restaurant. That's probably the first kind comment I've ever made about him.

Saddam isn't stupid, and it would be incredibly dangerous for him if lots of people knew his location. The more people who know something, the more that will tell someone else about it. I sure as hell wouldn't inform dozens of security personnel, especially becuase in a desperate time like this they'd have more likely to betray them.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 08 2003,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it wasn't it took a week before Germany surrendered. The war didn't end the instant Hitler died. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes thank you. I know as evidenced by the dates I inserted and you obviously didn't bother to look at.

I didn't say the war would end the instant he was dead. But to think the war would continue is just as ludicrous as the statement you seem to think I made.<span id='postcolor'>

If you think the war will automatically stop if saddam was killed you are the one making ludicrous statements. Seriously, there are some really peeved Iraqis in Baghdad, and shit they are brave. Their efforts may seem futile, but it's not like the war will end...

EDIT: This kind of thinking of Getting Saddam or Getting Usama reminds me a lot of a person who had his family member murdered and thinks that if the one responsible is killed (at best by him or her) then everything will get straight. Now I'm not making fun of a horrible situation like that, I understand the feeling, but logically it doesn't work.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 09 2003,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 08 2003,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it wasn't it took a week before Germany surrendered. The war didn't end the instant Hitler died. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes thank you. I know as evidenced by the dates I inserted and you obviously didn't bother to look at.

I didn't say the war would end the instant he was dead. But to think the war would continue is just as ludicrous as the statement you seem to think I made.<span id='postcolor'>

If you think the war will automatically stop if saddam was killed you are the one making ludicrous statements.  Seriously, there are some really peeved Iraqis in Baghdad, and shit they are brave.      Their efforts may seem futile, but it's not like the war will end...<span id='postcolor'>

What is so hard to read?

I never said the war would stop right away! Good god people read the posts!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 08 2003,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I never said the war would stop right away! Good god people read the posts!<span id='postcolor'>

No? Okay, never mind then I thought that's what you were arguing about with Denoir.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 09 2003,05:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 08 2003,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I never said the war would stop right away! Good god people read the posts!<span id='postcolor'>

No?  Okay, never mind then I thought that's what you were arguing about with Denoir.<span id='postcolor'>

No...actually we were apparently arguing about one thing that got sidetracked on another thing and so on and so on and at one point we were arguing about completely different things...you know how it is

[theavonlady 2]

Here's a bit of biographical information on "Comical Ali" that's not funny at all.

[Schoeler 0]

I must admit, I do look forward to his speeches every night for their sheer entertainment value. He just lies so well, its hilarious to see his denials.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 09 2003,09:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He just lies so well, its hilarious to see his denials.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, up to a point. I get bored of reran reruns.

[Longinius 1]

"I didn't say the war would end the instant he was dead. But to think the war would continue is just as ludicrous as the statement you seem to think I made."

The French continued fighting in WW2 even though their government had fallen. As did the Norwiegans. As long as there are people to take up the torch, the head of state isnt always important to keep a war going.

"I don't recall the US giving nukes to friendly dictators. To friendly democracies (Israel) perhaps, but the South Vietnamese, Koreans, and French never got any out of us."

Do you recall anyone else giving nukes to friendly dictators?

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ April 09 2003,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 08 2003,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No it wasn't it took a week before Germany surrendered. The war didn't end the instant Hitler died. <span id='postcolor'>

Yes thank you. I know as evidenced by the dates I inserted and you obviously didn't bother to look at.

I didn't say the war would end the instant he was dead. But to think the war would continue is just as ludicrous as the statement you seem to think I made.<span id='postcolor'>

If you think the war will automatically stop if saddam was killed you are the one making ludicrous statements.  Seriously, there are some really peeved Iraqis in Baghdad, and shit they are brave.      Their efforts may seem futile, but it's not like the war will end...<span id='postcolor'>

The war will be over when the coalition decide to say it's over. The media will go away, the world public will lose interest and governments will forget their pledges to help the Iraqi people. Then we'll all move on to the next whizzbang show of bright lights and loud noises.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 09 2003,08:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here's a bit of biographical information on "Comical Ali" that's not funny at all.

<span id='postcolor'>

LOL. Before this war, I never knew that Sky news was so unbelievably crappy. This article is no better then something from the Sun. One would think that there are plenty of good unemployed journalists out there, and yet they hire clowns

[WhoCares 0]

btw: does anybody know what happened to all the other cities? Like Karbala, Najaf, Kirkuk, Mosul - are they all abandoned by iraqi forces, or are reports from there just buried under all the stories from Baghdad and sometimes a little bit about Basrah?