This is pretty lame

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The way I see it, theres a huge difference between Joe burning a flag in his field with a bunch of his friends, and Joe the Meanie tearing up the PARTICULAR flags in question.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with that - although I can't say I welcome flagburning at all. However, it does not mean I would be especially offended if someone burned the norwegian flag - it just wouldn't make me that angry simply because it doesn't mean anything special to me. On the other hand, many norwegians -the elderly in particular, would go mad if someone burned the flag or if it's not treated in a propper way. I believe it has something to do with the value of the flag and their experience of the occupation during the war. Norwegian flags (without the swastica) was forbidden and people showed creativity by wearing "binders" at their coat collars. The binders are not a touchy matter though.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Freedom of Expression does not excuse the destruction of private property.<span id='postcolor'>

Just a technical question: Are items given away considered private property?

Edit: hooohoooo...I finally reached a thousand posts!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ Mar. 12 2003,04:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir, in my opinion, there is a huge difference between burning a nonexistant neo-nazi flag, and burning the American flag.  And remember, it was not only the flag that was trashed, an entire memorial was destroyed.  THAT is blatant disrespect to the dead.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I know and I agree. I was just trying to get this topic moving beyond everybody just replying with one line that says "that sucks".

And yes, my "theory" falls short on the fact that they destroyed more then the flags.

[OxPecker 0]

I am as against this war as the next guy, but doing this to a memorial is the act of a true moron.

These guys should get a huge fine, and have to personally apologise to all of the victims families.

[Akira 0]

In a bid to help denoir move the topic...:D

What if say, it WAS a WW2 memorial to the Wehrmacht? Say there were Nazi flags. Is that acceptable? Yes the Wehrmacht helped fight for the Nazi cause, and undoubtedly there were Nazi supporters in the Wehrmacht. But just as equally there were a lot that still fought that though they were extremely against the Nazi regime, since they were fighting for "Germany." General Gerstenberg (spelling I think) was an strict NAzi hater and wore no regalia of Nazi orgin on his uniform, yet that didn't stop him from defending Ploesti Rumania with all he had, and give the Nazi war machine...or more importantly the Wehrmacht...much of its oil and petrol.

So WOULD Nazi flags be an affront to such a memorial? Does the Nazi flag now stand for so much that it would be an abheration?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 12 2003,04:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So WOULD Nazi flags be an affront to such a memorial? Does the Nazi flag now stand for so much that it would be an abheration?<span id='postcolor'>

Luckily - one doesn't have to take such a decision because Germany already had a national flag prior to the Naziperiod!

And I believe the flag still stands for something inherently evil. Neo-Nazism is still a problem many places both in Europe and the US.

[FSPilot 0]

This is why rubber bullets were invented.

To be placed aside and replaced by real bullets and tear gas.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Mar. 12 2003,04:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Freedom of Expression does not excuse the destruction of private property. The police was simply wrong in not making an arrest.<span id='postcolor'>

what he said

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These alleged "antiwar protesters" were probably nothing but punks hiding behind a "cause." It's like the peace protest that turned violent here in Texas. Where and how exactly does a PEACE protest turn VIOLENT?? Obviously some don't practice what they claim to preach. Where exactly does protest turn into or condone vandalism, looting, violence or any other diametrically opposed action?

<span id='postcolor'>

who knows maybe sometimes the police start it

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (JOEHADENUF~MOH~ @ Mar. 12 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unlike Europe, that brought us Nazism, Hitler, Stalin, and communisum, the American flag is a symbol of a free people, that saved Europes butt. The American flag is a symbol of thousands that fought and died for our freedom, my friend. The American flag is a symbol of freedom in the greatest country on earth. A freedom that wasn't free and didn't come cheap, a freedom that many gave their lives for .<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, Europe was the place which sprouted such ideas as Nazism. But Europe is also the place which gave birth to the United States of Freedom.

Europe is the source of the best and the worst.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 12 2003,07:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (JOEHADENUF~MOH~ @ Mar. 12 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unlike Europe, that brought us Nazism, Hitler, Stalin, and communisum, the American flag is a symbol of a free people, that saved Europes butt. The American flag is a symbol of thousands that fought and died for our freedom, my friend. The American flag is a symbol of freedom in the greatest country on earth. A freedom that wasn't free and didn't come cheap, a freedom that many gave their lives for .<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, Europe was the place which sprouted such ideas as Nazism. But Europe is also the place which gave birth to the United States of Freedom.

Europe is the source of the best and the worst.<span id='postcolor'>

Gee thats funny, i was kinda under the impression that Europe wanted to establish colonies there by expanding their empires and mine the lush amounts of gold thats located in the western lands. I had no idea their agenda was to simply build what is now the U.S.

[Schoeler 0]

As a constitutional scholar heading towards law school and as a veteran, let me say a few things without getting flamed.

1. Do I think its right to burn the flag?

No. I believe the flag is the symbol of more than the current government. It is the symbol of the people, of the government as it was, as it is, and as it will someday be (hopefully). It is a symbol of all that was good about America, is currently good about America and all that can be good about America. It symbolizes the people who fought and died for our freedoms and for basic human rights around the world. It symbolizes the ultimate political concept expressed in the philosophies of great men like John Locke and Rousseau and John Stuart Mill (European men I might add) whose ideas were summed up in our Declaration of Independence which states: That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creater with certain unalienable rights. That among these are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That governments are instituted among men to insure those rights are protected and that people have a right to overthrow their government by force if it fails to hold up its end of the bargain. Have we achieved those lofty goals completely yet? No. Are we getting closer with each new generation of Americans? Yes.

2. Because of these ideals and philosophies and freedoms (that the flag symbolizes) should it be permissible for people who protest the nature of the current regime or former regimes or future regimes to burn the flag?

Yes. If we truly believe we are a free people with free expression and that that freedom of expression is symbolized in our flag, then the ultimate manifestation of that freedom and philosophy is the burning of the very symbol which best represents it. In doing so, the protesters are actually expressing an oxymoron. Its akin to saying, "look how terrible and oppressive this regime is", when in fact its so much the opposite that it allows them to burn the flag to express their thoughts. By burning the flag, they actually make the best argument against their own position. I can't think of a better way of proving we are a free people than to allow fools to express that freedom by burning the very symbol of it. We have a right as Americans to disagree with our government. We have a right to freely express that disagreement no matter how offensive it is to some. If all men are created equal and all have the same rights, then all points of view no matter how offensive have to be accorded equal respect and all forms of expression have to be allowed (so long as they don't endanger others). We have to honor and stand up for and continue to fight for the principles we expressed in the Declaration of Independence, just like the men we accord so much respect to who fought and died for those principles and we see symbolized in our flag did.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Mar. 12 2003,07:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee thats funny, i was kinda under the impression that Europe wanted to establish colonies there by expanding their empires and mine the lush amounts of gold thats located in the western lands. I had no idea their agenda was to simply build what is now the U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

Gee, where did the U.S. residents come from? Outer space? I thought they were fundamentalists, criminals and fortune-seekers emigrating from Europe. Thus their cultural heritage was european and therefore the ideas that they came up with were inspired by european culture. Just like nazism was inspired by european culture.

I doubt that native american culture had much to do with the creation of U.S., since the european emigrants barred them in reservates.

Maybe you might enlighten me where the U.S. culture emerged from if not from the european cultural heritage of the settlers?

[FallenPaladin 0]

What? It wasn`t Columbus, that found America in 1492?? Wooohooo, that`s a big conspiracy! The USA have always been there and a Bush was always behind everything. The first settlers that came to Europe were from ancient Bush America      

A note from the author: Famous Julius Bushus fought the Grecians in Gallia, which lead to the downfall of the pharaos.

Fallen`s brief history of the United States Bush surely believes in  

[Stag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Mar. 11 2003,07:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In a bid to help denoir move the topic...:D

What if say, it WAS a WW2 memorial to the Wehrmacht? Say there were Nazi flags. Is that acceptable? Yes the Wehrmacht helped fight for the Nazi cause, and undoubtedly there were Nazi supporters in the Wehrmacht. But just as equally there were a lot that still fought that though they were extremely against the Nazi regime, since they were fighting for "Germany." General Gerstenberg (spelling I think) was an strict NAzi hater and wore no regalia of Nazi orgin on his uniform, yet that didn't stop him from defending Ploesti Rumania with all he had, and give the Nazi war machine...or more importantly the Wehrmacht...much of its oil and petrol.

So WOULD Nazi flags be an affront to such a memorial? Does the Nazi flag now stand for so much that it would be an abheration?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it does. The Nazi flag was just that; the flag of the Nazi party. Nothing at all to do with the German National flag.

Anybody here think that the scum that adopted the swastika did anything to be proud about?

I think if Gerstenberg had lived to see that hypothetical memoral with Nazi flags on it, He'd have torn them down himself.

[der bastler 0]

Speaking of Germany...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

The German Flag

Black-red-gold are the colours of the oldest flag of germany. It originates from the colours of the "Luetzower Freikorps", a unit fighting against Napoleon, also known as "black hunters". In 1813 this unit was smashed near Leipzig by a french ambush.

In 1815 the student league of Jena was founded by seven students who had served in this unit. They chose the unit's colours for their league

In 1817, four years after the battle of the nations near Leipzig, 500 students and professors met near Eisenach and demonstrated in support for freedom and a unified empire. They carried red-black-red flags with golden fringes -an early version.

In 1832 thousands of germans demostrated for national and democratic objectives; first versions of the black-red-golden-flag were shown. Main goal: a german state (the millenium-old "Holy Roman Empire of German Nation" was broke up by Napoleon; since then Germany consisted of several more or less independent kingdoms).

In 1848 the first german national assembly was founded and Black-Red-Gold proclaimed as german flag. Today this flag is a representation of democracy in Germany. Btw black and gold are the colours of the ancient (first) german empire.

In 1871 the colours of the flag changed to the colours of Prussia (black-white) and hanseatic cities (white-red):

Black-White-Red, the flag of the second empire.

After WWI, from 1919 until 1933 Black-Red-Gold were the german colours -again.

From 1933 until 1945, during the third empire -or Third Reich- the flag changed back to Black-White-Red, but the symbol of the Nazis was the red flag with a white circle and swastika inside.

Since 1949 the german flag has the colours black-red-gold -again...

<span id='postcolor'>

It's forbidden to show any Nazi-symbols in Germany. Only exceptions: Arts, Education. Games are not classified as "artistic" or "educative", therefore they mustn't show swastikas, SS-runes etc. Otherwise they're confiscated. Full stop.

If I'd see a Nazi-flag, I'd try to remove it (well, usually these flags are accompanied by baseball-bat-swinging/drunken hooligans... ...but in the last months/years it was quite quiet). It's the symbol of pure evil (although the swastika is an old symbol and still in use -> Asia) and should be banned.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Have we achieved those lofty goals completely yet? No. Are we getting closer with each new generation of Americans? Yes.

<span id='postcolor'>

Are you sure with that ? I get the impression the US isolate themselves more and more daily and set up a theatre of war and self defense that covers the whole globe. I don´t think this is a reasonable goal for any nation , is it ?

I have no problems with burning flags. Does this touch me ? No. I don´t have to fix my patriotism to a flag to make it work. Another thing I can´t understand with the US mentality.

Burn a german flag in front of my eyes. Nothing will happen. Why should that bother me ? I am not the flag that burns, neither do I have an intimate relation to a flag. If you start to cry whenever a flag is burnt you´d better not go abroad.

FOR SURE: Any vandalized memorial is shit. Doesn´t matter if it is the 911 memorial or the WW2 memorials in germany that were vandalized over and over again by some punks.

What makes me wonder is the bystanding police. Why didn´t they interfere ?

And on a sidenote I´m sure I will find tons of swastika flags in the US, but not here in germany. So you see good and bad is a little bit different defined in this case.

[Schoeler 0]

The U.S. hasmoved closer to the goals stated in the Declaration in many important ways, but we still have a long way to go. Some of the ways include:

the 13th Amendment: Outlawed slavery.

the 14th Amendment: Guaranteed Procedural Due Process and Equal Protection for ALL Americans and applied the Bill of Rights to the States.

the 15th Amendment: Gave African Americans the vote.

the 16th Amendment: Provided for popular election of Senators.

the 19th Amendment: Expanded the vote to women.

All of those were steps toward greater democracy and equality. In fact, constitutional scholars call the Amending process a "Quiet democratic revolution" in America. It what makes our flawed constitution acceptable. It can be changed.

Problems we still have include:

Presidential usurpation of the power to declare war. This is NOT in the constitution!

The electoral college.

Insufficient checks on the Supreme Court power of judicial review, which allows the Court to act as an unelected super legislature.

Disproportionate representation in the Senate. Every State gets two Senators regardless of population.

The role of money in U.S. politics. We need serious campaign finance reform. The Supreme Court decision in Buckley v. Valeo gutted the only effective reform we had.

If you are interested in this topic read "How Democratic is the American Constitution?" by Robert J. Dahl. He is a professor at Yale and one of the world's foremost constitutional scholars.

[Longinius 1]

"The American flag is not a symbol of the government you idiot. Unlike Europe, that brought us Nazism, Hitler, Stalin, and communisum, the American flag is a symbol of a free people, that saved Europes butt."

And brought us nuclear weapons, disastrous armsraces and the slaughter of innocent indians. You see, it is in the human nature to be evil and you will have evil people regardless of race, nationality or creed. The fact that you cant recognise this is scary in more ways than one.

As for America saving Europes butt, we all ready discussed that.

But, to recap...

- If it wasnt for Europe the US wouldnt exist.

- America didnt have a choice in getting involved in the world wars. There was simply no option that said "We dont have to pitch in".

- Millions of people around the world have died for the same freedom as you have in the US. You are not unique in that sense.

- America is not the greatest nation on the face of this planet. Yes, it is a matter of opinion of course and I dont know which nation IS the greatest. I just know that it isnt the US... and no, its not Sweden either.

"The American flag is a symbol of thousands that fought and died for our freedom, my friend."

To you, thats what the flag means. To the rest of the world, its a symbol of a nation.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 12 2003,16:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">All of those were steps toward greater democracy and equality.  In fact, constitutional scholars call the Amending process a "Quiet democratic revolution" in America.  It what makes our flawed constitution acceptable.  It can be changed.<span id='postcolor'>

Indeed it has been improving in many ways. The big flaw is still however that the core of the constitution is unchangable. For instance you are entirely locked in the current government form (two chamber system) and you can't change it, even if everybody in USA wanted it.

One of the most serious flaws is the political dependency of the Supreme Court members.

[Jinef 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 12 2003,03:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, it does not mean I would be especially offended if someone burned the norwegian flag - it just wouldn't make me that angry simply because it doesn't mean anything special to me.<span id='postcolor'>

Only because all your flags look the same anyway!

Hmm and here we have Finland - badly drawn cross

and Sweden - badly drawn cross

...and Norway - badly drawn cross

and.. oh forget it!

I think that flags do represent the country which is in turn represented by the goverment - there is a definite link in there. The american flag has 50 stars for the states and stripes for the 13 original states yeah? Well then that represents the states and the country overall, if the goverment has nothing to do with the flag then why do have it practically stuck on their foreheads?

Bgnorways right, i wouldn't really be bothered if someone decided to burn a union jack or stick it up their arse, whichever the one on/near buckingham palace is still going to be there (i can't remember if there is a flag on buckingham palace which must be alien to Americans considering there's practically one on every house over there) and as long as we remember what it looks like what else do we need.

I wouldn't want to take on the household cavalry trying to damage that one! And definitely not the Coldstream guards.

http://www.householdcavalry.co.uk/

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 12 2003,11:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Mar. 12 2003,07:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Gee thats funny, i was kinda under the impression that Europe wanted to establish colonies there by expanding their empires and mine the lush amounts of gold thats located in the western lands. I had no idea their agenda was to simply build what is now the U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

Gee, where did the U.S. residents come from? Outer space? I thought they were fundamentalists, criminals and fortune-seekers emigrating from Europe. Thus their cultural heritage was european and therefore the ideas that they came up with were inspired by european culture. Just like nazism was inspired by european culture.

I doubt that native american culture had much to do with the creation of U.S., since the european emigrants barred them in reservates.

Maybe you might enlighten me where the U.S. culture emerged from if not from the european cultural heritage of the settlers?<span id='postcolor'>

Yea they came from Europe to live in the "New World" and a lot of ideas used came from European heritage. But I was trying to say that was not Europes goal and even waged a war to try and stop it. I was thinking maybe that was what you were claiming.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ Mar. 12 2003,09:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a constitutional scholar heading towards law school and as a veteran, let me say a few things without getting flamed.

1.  Do I think its right to burn the flag?

No.  I believe the flag is the symbol of more than the current government.  It is the symbol of the people, of the government as it was, as it is, and as it will someday be (hopefully).  It is a symbol of all that was good about America, is currently good about America and all that can be good about America.  It symbolizes the people who fought and died for our freedoms and for basic human rights around the world.  It symbolizes the ultimate political concept expressed in the philosophies of great men like John Locke and Rousseau and John Stuart Mill (European men I might add) whose ideas were summed up in our Declaration of Independence which states: That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creater with certain unalienable rights.  That among these are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  That governments are instituted among men to insure those rights are protected and that people have a right to overthrow their government by force if it fails to hold up its end of the bargain.  Have we achieved those lofty goals completely yet?  No.  Are we getting closer with each new generation of Americans?  Yes.  

2.  Because of these ideals and philosophies and freedoms (that the flag symbolizes) should it be permissible for people who protest the nature of the current regime or former regimes or future regimes to burn the flag?

Yes.  If we truly believe we are a free people with free expression and that that freedom of expression is symbolized in our flag, then the ultimate manifestation of that freedom and philosophy is the burning of the very symbol which best represents it.  In doing so, the protesters are actually expressing an oxymoron.  Its akin to saying,  "look how terrible and oppressive this regime is", when in fact its so much the opposite that it allows them to burn the flag to express their thoughts.  By burning the flag, they actually make the best argument against their own position.  I can't think of a better way of proving we are a free people than to allow fools to express that freedom by burning the very symbol of it.  We have a right as Americans to disagree with our government.  We have a right to freely express that disagreement no matter how offensive it is to some.  If all men are created equal and all have the same rights, then all points of view no matter how offensive have to be accorded equal respect and all forms of expression have to be allowed (so long as they don't endanger others).  We have to honor and stand up for and continue to fight for the principles we expressed in the Declaration of Independence, just like the men we accord so much respect to who fought and died for those principles and we see symbolized in our flag did.<span id='postcolor'>

symbols have meanings,different meanings for different ppl,meanings can change,the US flag is a symbol.

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 12 2003,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i wouldn't really be bothered if someone decided to burn a union jack or stick it up their arse<span id='postcolor'>

Me neither but then I've never considered the union jack to be the flag of my country, my country is England thus the flag of my country is the St. George's Cross

[Col. Kurtz 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Mar. 13 2003,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 12 2003,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i wouldn't really be bothered if someone decided to burn a union jack or stick it up their arse<span id='postcolor'>

Me neither but then I've never considered the union jack to be the flag of my country, my country is England thus the flag of my country is the St. George's Cross <span id='postcolor'>

So what happens when someone burns your St. Georges Cross like the one in your sig?

Personally, I don't have much of a problem with flag burning, its a good way to show the world you are pissed off with a particular country. And if someone burns the flag of their own country, then so be it. They are obviously not happy with the actions of the government. Since the government rules the country, they make descions that decide whether your flag is a symbol of freedom and a good democratic nation, or that of a corrupt evil regime. Flags can change from regime to regime soo in my mind, flags are only really for identification purposes.

[Othin 0]

In many ways Schoeler summed up my thoughts.

I look at the flag as more then a symbol of the United States government.  I look at it as a visual representation of everyone in the country.  Past, present, and the future.  To me it represents not only the people, but their accomplishments and dreams.  

It bothers me when I see the flag burned because (in my opinion of course, I know people see things differently) it seems that they are showing disrespect for everyone, not just the government.  I don't like the concept of burning flags period.  If I saw someone burning a French or even Iraqi flag I would stop it.  But that is a personal belief.

It bothers me on a very emotional level to see the American flag burned.  On the other hand, it makes me so proud to see it raised every morning for colors that my heart wants to burst.  I don't think I can express in writing how much is summed up for me when I see the flag.  A Marine once said that if the National Anthem dosen't give you chills, then you're in the wrong line of work.

Just my thoughts...

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Mar. 12 2003,20:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So what happens when someone burns your St. Georges Cross like the one in your sig? <span id='postcolor'>

I've never ever seen one burned, England never pisses anyone off, it's that annoying Britain place that upsets people