N. korea intercepts us spy plane

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 05 2003,22:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Mar. 05 2003,19:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am trying to show Jinef's point being not sound.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think i had a point, i just said that spying on a country is in no way a passive act.

Sure it might be a regular act but that still does not classify it as passive.<span id='postcolor'>

well, i'd be happy if rest of the world stop spying on US and set example. and for rest of the other things too, by nurturing their own poverty instead of spending their time on international affairs

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Mar. 06 2003,01:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For someone to be exploited they have to be physically forced to work against their own will. It is only a government, not a businessman, that has the type of power necessary to force people to work against their own judgment.

<span id='postcolor'>

Excuse me?

Say,if there is no alternative than to work underpaid,no education for a better job because your parents couldn't afford it with their pay,aren't you being exploited?<span id='postcolor'>

Not really, why not start a business? I know of several people who never got a college degree who became millionaires and even billionaires.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Americans realize the importance of the separation of church and state: the institution which leaves people free to form and act upon their own values without the threat of others imposing their own values upon them through aid of the government. What most people do not understand, however, is that the separation of economics and state -- laissez-faire capitalism -- is just as important for human prosperity as is the separation of church and state.<span id='postcolor'>

Erm?

School textbooks are editted for the spiritual peace of mind of some conservative Texan christian order.Don't have any links on me but it passed the forums in another thread.

On pictures of classic art where,god forbid,some *ahem* inappropriate body parts were visible,they had to be editted out because they were inappropriate.<span id='postcolor'>

What does separation of economy and state have to do with editing nude pictures in a school textbook?

http://www.thisismychance.com/M_StartlingFacts.htm

[Mr. Snrub 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 06 2003,01:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mr. Snrub @ Mar. 04 2003,09:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But if NK wants to shoot down an unarmed, passive US aircraft, then trying to avoid tension is kinda pointless...<span id='postcolor'>

Spying on a country is not being passive. For fucks sake the Americans think they can just do whatever they want and they will always be the good guys. What would America do if China decided to start flying recon planes around America just doing a bit of 'passive' recon.

It's frickin Cuba all over again!<span id='postcolor'>

By passive I meant non-aggressive - ie. not posing any direct threat. I'm not saying the Americans aren't being a tad provocative (they certainly are), but they aren't breaking any rules either.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I suppose we can conveniently forget the missile test that North Korea performed, on the day of the South Korean president's inaguaration. And of course the naval skirmish a year back. And the recent incursions into South Korean airspace. And of course the millions the North Koreans have embezzled through the South's sunshine policy, which is a textbook example of why the new Time's article "Kill Dictatorships with Kindness" is a crock of horseshit. Along side the poorly written rhetoric and very creative propaganda posters featuring an exploding Capitol Building...

I mean, quasi-seriously, why can't we just leave those peace loving democratic socialists alone? Why must we pursue our running-dog imperialist goals of... flying 150 miles outside of a country's airspace?

Let me get this straight- North Korea goes outside of its sovereign area, bounces one of our surveillance flights, and then locks up on it with their targeting radars...

And it's our fault?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And it's our fault?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, because we're America.  Freedom and democracy are evil.  Everything our government did, is doing, and plans on doing is wrong and it's your fault.  People are dying in Uganda because you didn't slip a penny in the can at the grocery store.  The North Koreans are right, you're wrong.  Saddam Hussein is a good person, you're not.  The American military lays waste to cities and sprays civilians with radioactive dust for no reason whatsoever.

Man, don't you learn anything from going to these boards?

[Balschoiw 0]

Bombers heading for NK

[Jinef 2]

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200201/24/eng20020124_89288.shtml

I think it was here he said.

But just put american aid to afghanistan in google and you will see lot's of stuff but no reports on them actually giving large sums of money.

Maybe it's just covert though.

[Frisbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not really, why not start a business? I know of several people who never got a college degree who became millionaires and even billionaires.<span id='postcolor'>

Can't really do that when you have to work from your 12th to supplement the measly income your parents get.

People fought and died for the system of minimum wages and social security we have now,they wouldn't have had to if everything was as easy as this faq tries to present.

The people you know of probably did so in the mixed economy of the us,i don't know of many during the industrial revolution period in europe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">separation of economy and state

separation of church and state

<span id='postcolor'>

Schools funded and directed by the state,influenced by the church.

[The_Replicator 0]

USA relies too much on technology - a Su47 Berkut nukes the f-22

bombers heading for NK

:-/ what are they going to do? kill 200 000 civilians with them?

US are afraid of NK

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USA relies too much on technology - a Su47 Berkut nukes the f-22

bombers heading for NK

:-/ what are they going to do? kill 200 000 civilians with them?

US are afraid of NK <span id='postcolor'>

I can see this turning into a A/C debate. All I'll say, is that the Berkut is a bloody nice peice of kit, but will never see the same production run as the F-22. (Which incidently is a cold war plane, which turned up far too late and over budget, and doesn't really have a proper role these days. A bit like the Typhoon, but along the line they modified it to carry a large payload of A/G stores, so they certainly made the most out of a bad situation.)

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USA relies too much on technology - a Su47 Berkut nukes the f-22<span id='postcolor'>

lol

...

just, lol

That's like saying your sword fighter can beat my .358 magnum. Indiana jones anybody?

[Necromancer- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Mar. 05 2003,22:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you think that having a National Health Service NOW would be more benefficial than the ability to shoot down ballistic missiles in 20 years time?

Why doesn't the US lower it's defense budget by let's say 200 billion and give it to the homeless! Or make a good NHS and put the corporate gangfucks of hospitals in the US out of buisness?

I never said that other countries don't spy on each other. The North Korean fighters intercepted the plane for a reason, true they might just have thought it would be fun but most likely not.<span id='postcolor'>

It takes 20 years to get those orbital ballistic missile protection working.

There wouldn't be much to fund the homeless either if they got nuked by North Korea.

I totally agree that the US funds their defense budget very high compared to other countries, but their reasons are justified.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 06 2003,22:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USA relies too much on technology - a Su47 Berkut nukes the f-22<span id='postcolor'>

lol

...

just, lol

That's like saying your sword fighter can beat my .358 magnum.  Indiana jones anybody?<span id='postcolor'>

For a guy that professes to be an aviation enthusiast, you sometimes really are behind the times.

Russian aircraft are usually excellent performers. The Su-27 competes on a level with anything currently in the US arsenal.

As for the Su-47 Berkut, if it hits production, it will easily match the F-22. It's hardly a sword vs gun analogy.

[FSPilot 0]

Yeah, I know the S-37 is extremely maneuverable and would be a wonderful dogfighter. But I also know the F-22 has stealth technology, plus better radar and missiles. So it can knock the S-37 out of the sky before the F-22 is even in missile range of the -37

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ Mar. 06 2003,15:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Can't really do that when you have to work from your 12th to supplement the measly income your parents get.

People fought and died for the system of minimum wages and social security we have now,they wouldn't have had to if everything was as easy as this faq tries to present.<span id='postcolor'>

You know good and well that the most money is given out to the poor, minorities, and women more than anyone else, you just have to put out at least minimal of effort and look the stuff up on were to apply.

The US government (the federal government indirectly, and the state governments directly) gives away a LOT of money every year for starting businesses, going to school, fixing up your house, investing in real estate, ect... Ive read between 70 and 120 billion per year depending on who wrote it.

Who exactly died for minimum wage and social security? I thought both of those were from F.D.R's "New Deal" during the great depression.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Hit_Sqd_Maximus @ Mar. 07 2003,00:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who exactly died for minimum wage and social security? I thought both of those were from F.D.R's "New Deal" during the great depression.<span id='postcolor'>

Do some research into the early history of trade unionism in the US. There is a lot of blood involved, and it was what led to minimum wages and reasonable working conditions for employees.

[rwryne 0]

I like peanuts

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Ah, strikes, I didnt think about that when he first posted.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Mar. 06 2003,14:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For a guy that professes to be an aviation enthusiast, you sometimes really are behind the times.

Russian aircraft are usually excellent performers.  The Su-27 competes on a level with anything currently in the US arsenal.

As for the Su-47 Berkut, if it hits production, it will easily match the F-22.  It's hardly a sword vs gun analogy.<span id='postcolor'>

I think that's where the distinction lies. One is an experimental airplane, the other is a (for all intents and purposes) a production model.

The Russians are also trying to skip a generation of airplane design because of the economic problems they've had recently.

I'm definately not taking anything away from the Russians though. I've been a longtime "fan" of their aviation and shipbuilding work.

[FSPilot 0]

Don't get me wrong, I've got lots of respect and admiration for Soviet/Russian aircraft. They've built some amazing planes. Extremely durable. Planes that can be landed with the gear up, then lower the gear to take off the same day. They would probably be a formidable military threat today if it wasn't for their economy.

[Frisbee 0]

Yes,strikes,barricades,sorry I didn't mention that,fought and died does sound more like a civil war or something.

The current economic systems in europe and us aren't great,but they're the best we have.

That faq preached pure 'laissez faire laissez passer' capitalism,which we had during the industrial revolution.

Substandard living,earning a measly pay,of which you were forced to spend at least *insert percentage here* in the company bar/shop (where of course prices were higher than those in the street),child labor,etc,etc.

I just oppose that,not what the us has now,so I think we can stop this little offtopic debate

[Warin 0]

Back to the topic at hand...

The NK situation is getting pretty heated. Moving bombers to Guam, saber rattling over the NK Nuke program (If they dont stop, we might have to stop them) is all pretty tense.

2003 might be a bad bad year for world peace.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Heh, just a bit of nonsence I just realized, my phone number is xxx-2003

[Supah 0]

I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.

[Whoami88 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Mar. 07 2003,02:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I subscribe to this idea: If the USA doesnt want their SPYplanes intercepted why are they sending them out in the first place? You go out spying you run the risk of being hassled with .... seriously, Deal with it! Infringe on the NK's airspace and be messed with. The NK airforce is fully in their right to intercept these birds regardless their country of origine.<span id='postcolor'>

Seriously, have you read anything before you spitted that off, the plane was in international waters.