N. korea intercepts us spy plane

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

No not a softening of attitude thats not what i mean , more a reframing of the situation by the US in particular. Critical but not so overtly hostile ,none the less backed by substantial force.

[Jinef 2]

Yeah okay i simplified things a lot but the points were that the Americans couldn't destroy the archives like they did in Germany of incriminating evidence etc. Everyone's heard the phrase that whoever wins the war writes the history books.

These were true

In the Cuban Missile Crisis the Americans had the ability to be able to hit Russia with 5000 warheads using ICBMS and missiles based in Turkey and the UK. Russia had about 12 Warheads that could reach the USA. See this imbalance?

So the Russians decided to move missiles to Cuba who were asking for international help from an invasion from the US.

America had a few more Allies than Russia that exchanged technology, offered military assistance etc.

This wasn't

When the Americans found out you know what happened and thankfully the Russians helped to avert a war by keeping the Cubans in control.

The Russians tried to stop the Cubans firing upon US fighters so that it did not give America the excuse to attack. Krushev's mistake was not to admit that he just put some big missiles on Cuba, which made him look bad which he wasn't.

Remember of course that i'm an Anti American Bush hater etc. *burns American flag*

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Jinef- "Remember of course that i'm an Anti American Bush hater etc. *burns American flag*"

Ah yes, well thats allright then.

[Schoeler 0]

I wasn't referring specifically to military power, but economic power. If China continues to modernize its economy and doesn't suffer some political meltdown (which is actually something likely to happen), it will surpass the U.S. in economic power in about 10-12 years give or take. Its all quite verifiable, and I'll try and get some sources for you, they were some textbooks I had about two semesters back. Anyway, under hegemonic stability theory, history points to the two powers having a contest for world leadership. The few times this sort of situation actually happened throughout history it resulted in war between the contending powers some four out of five times I believe. The difference is that this was pre-nuclear days and the last occurence was in the 1850's, so technology might have affected the theory somewhat. Dang, now I've got to go digging for old textbooks. Its an interesting theory though.

[FSPilot 0]

And you have to remember Jinef that neither of the countrys knew the size of each other's nuclear stockpiles. We thought they had twice as much as we did, and they thought we had twice as much as they did.

[Jinef 2]

That's what makes it fun!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Schoeler- Yes i agree that China is likely to challenge America for global supremacy ,at least on an economic level we can already see this happening. China is a very different nation from America however and operates in a fundamentally different way. I dont see a Chinese cultural hegemony or overwhelming technological military infrastructure emerging. In many ways China is still (and will foreseeably continue to be) a regional power and i see no major change in this respect as imminent.

But with over a billion people China may very well become the major economy of the world, major industrial base etc.

(it likely will barring major change) Probably it will continue to become more and more of a consumerist society. It may develop for a long time inwardly before looking outwards (as America may be said largely to have done following independence). I get the feeling China will not challenge aggressively(such as setting up global bases) until the scales are tipped firmly in their favour and they are certain of victory, but if some internal collapse looks likely then that could spur them to external action.

If more states acquire nukes especially (+ other WMDs) and even acquire/develop ICBMs then the US may be left with a somewhat obsolete military industry as even small states get something approaching MAD capability.

Then the US military dominance may have less significance in the global balance of power. Thats certainly one major reason why Bush is so pissed off with WMD (apart from terrorist use)

[FSPilot 0]

i heard that China, if it ever got a good economy, would switch to democracy. anything legit in that statement or is it just crazy AM radio talk?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I get the feeling that the Chinese do not have the same ideological commitment to communism that they used to have. They are already experimenting with a more open economy. Anyway the Chinese already have a democracy. Its just that theres only one party.

[nolips71 0]

im currently resisting the temptation badgerboy

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i heard that China, if it ever got a good economy, would switch to democracy. anything legit in that statement or is it just crazy AM radio talk? <span id='postcolor'>

check Hongkong. They got a very lifely buisness and democratic movement there under the eyes of the chinese lead.

[FSPilot 0]

I've always heard of political oppression in China. Is the Chinese government letting this democratic movement go along peacefully?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Yes Balschoiw Hong Kong is indeed an exception that will hopefully help spread a desire for greater freedom throughout China.

FSPilot-Largely i believe they are, Hong Kong has a degree of independance with the 'one country two system approach'(off the top of my head)

But i seem to remember a few initial problems with the high court or somesuch. (Something to do with the Chinese government wanting more people able to enter HongKong for work from China proper)

It was one of the promises the Chinese felt compelled to make before we (UK) handed in over to them that they would let things remain largely similar to before the handover.

In fact i seem to remember there is an enclave in North Korea where something approaching free market capitalism is allowed as an experiment.

[Schoeler 0]

No, not the political aspects of it, all you have to do is look back at Tianenmen square. Economically they are trying a strange blend of Maoism and capitalism that seems to be creating some tensions. They know they can't compete outright with capitalist economies such as the Taiwanese right now, so they are looking for a sort of compromise position that allows them to compete effectively. There is a lot of dissent amongst the younger generation, especially the college students with internet resources. This demogrpahic seems firmly determined to move towards true democracy/capitalism and may just be waiting for the old hardline regime to die off. Remember in '89, the Chinese had to bring in troops from far off provinces to committ the atrocities because the younger urban based troops refused to take part. China is being predicted for implosion by a lot of my political science professors.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

But you are not mistaken FSPilot in that there is still indeed a lot of political repression on the Chinese mainland.(Though they will try to hide this in the run up to the Olympics of course)

[Schoeler 0]

The last I heard, China is still practicing the policy of summarily executing political dissidents and then billing their families for the priceof the bullet and state funeral (cremation and disposal of the ashes). They don't have a real high tolerance for persons critical of their policies.

[Jinef 2]

Who's ever read Tom Clancy?

He's a patriotic, christian and coffee obsessed zenophobic.

It took me a while to get that definition, i read 12 of his books and gradually i could see the coffee and America always winning becoming more apparent.

But anyway in one of his books he made China look like a tyrant.

Maybe if the European populations are falling we should just take tons of the Chinese and Indians and relocate them, bulking out our population.

I saw the film 'Far from heaven' the other day, i was dragged against my will, and it was disgusting to see the racial seperation in America in the 50s even after they had just condemned the Nazis for being racist and doing the whole genocide buisness etc.