State of the games industry

[interstat 0]

Having just played the new Unreal game (sorry guys but I was a big fan of the orginal game before seeing the error of my ways by playing Flashpoint), and turns it out its all eye Candy, point shoot, point shoot. I vented my rage over at the Unreal 2 forum, and saw many other people becrying the lack of gamplay and imagination.

The fact that Unreal 2 was lacking in imagination and bugs (been in development for many years) got me thinking about the whole games industry at the moment, especially with a new flood of FPS coming out soon, Black Hawk Down, Unreal 2, Doom III and Project IGI. It seems that gameplay is still not in developers minds, apart from Flashpoint I can't think of a challenging and revolutionary type of game in terms of gameplay since Half-Life.

The lack of support for these heavily beta-stage games that get released at the moment, emphasis on graphics not gameplay and the high-price for a PC games seems to me as a damning indictment of the games industry.

Maybe I'm wrong, would be great if others were to share their viewpoints on this, or let me know about some very playable games out there that are getting ignored.

Discuss?!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This should've gone in Offtopic, but you make some good points. As gaming has become a bigger and bigger business, developers have stopped thinking in creative or quality terms, and more about what will make them the most money. Luckily, there's still developers out there (like BIS) who can buck the trend, but because they aren't interested in catering to the mainstream (the same mainstream that made the Sims and its many patches -I mean expansion packs- the best-selling game ever), they will never get the success or support they deserve.

[interstat 0]

Totally agree, the other thing as well, the type of people that buy the big selling titles aren't intersted in actually playing a mission like Assasination in Red Hammer (Just an example) with one save point, because its too testing.

With our 15 minute segment society, patience and mental thinking is not thought of highly. The amount of wasted Cd's and plastic that has gone to make up the games industry is shocking.

The Sims fragged and body bagged would be nice site, he, he, he!

[Placebo 29]

Moving to OT

[Antichrist 0]

I won't be so sure about BIS not getting support they deserve. They already have quite a huge following and doesn't look like its going to diminish.

[Renagade 0]

however,stifling forum rules and lack of marketing means it isn`t has :/

[edit] the games industry will probably go the same way as the music industry

[Othin 0]

I think the games industry is still in a state of flux as they transition from a single or small scale MP state of design to a large Massivily Multiplayer Online one. Not to say that single player games will disappear, but multiplayer is where the money is.

Look at the Sims. Here was a game that was making money hand over fist as a single player experience, but someone decided they knew better, and came out with Sims Online.

I'm not really impressed with the majority of games that have come out lately though. I hold Fallout (1&2), Ultima VII, and Daggerfall as examples of games where you could do almost anything you wanted, and interact completely with the environment. For the most part this has been laking in the majority of games from the last few years. Notable exception would be Morrowind.

I think games have had enough eye candy for the time being, it's time to return to substance and interactivity. Bring back our Ultimas, our Fallouts, our Wing Commanders, our Operation Flashpoints, and our Zorks. I think it's high time to put the game back in gaming.

[Jester983 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Feb. 11 2003,03:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">however,stifling forum rules and lack of marketing means it isn`t has :/

[edit] the games industry will probably go the same way as the music industry  <span id='postcolor'>

So you mean soon well start seeing games advertising sex and drugs and everything else that the music advertises?

Because we are starting to see that. BMXXX shows scenes from strip clubs and GTA series have drugs in them etc.

You have a very good point.

I think its really a win win situation for the game developing companies and the video card developing. Because game developers are making their graphics much more demanding of our cards so the video card companies have to make new ones. Its all for money...

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Feb. 12 2003,00:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">however,stifling forum rules and lack of marketing means it isn`t has :/<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, except you ignore the fact that a very small fraction of the people who buy games ever actually register on official forums. So I'd have to say you're just working on fulfilling your quota of petty bitching. Besides, the rules can't be that stifling if the Mods let you carry on in the incredibly annoying way that you do

[USMC Sniper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Feb. 12 2003,01:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the games industry is still in a state of flux as they transition from a single or small scale MP state of design to a large Massivily Multiplayer Online one.  Not to say that single player games will disappear, but multiplayer is where the money is.

Look at the Sims.  Here was a game that was making money hand over fist as a single player experience, but someone decided they knew better, and came out with Sims Online.

I'm not really impressed with the majority of games that have come out lately though.  I hold Fallout (1&2), Ultima VII, and Daggerfall as examples of games where you could do almost anything you wanted, and interact completely with the environment.  For the most part this has been laking in the majority of games from the last few years.  Notable exception would be Morrowind.

I think games have had enough eye candy for the time being, it's time to return to substance and interactivity.  Bring back our Ultimas, our Fallouts, our Wing Commanders, our Operation Flashpoints, and our Zorks.  I think it's high time to put the game back in gaming.<span id='postcolor'>

What's wrong with eye candy? Considering technology is improving, theres absolutely nothing wrong with eye candy. Resistances graphics are okay, but not great, but its still is great fun. Morrowind has terrific graphics, and it's a great game. Smae goes for Mafia, IL2, FS2002, etc. It's not like good graphics are a sacrifice for gameplay. I bought U2 and I think it's a really fun game, who cares if it's point and shoot, technically OFP is the same, but U2 does it more simply. Plus good graphics add to the immersiveness of a game, and IMO that's very important. When a game has crummy graphics, and good gameplay, the gameplay will not make up for the feeling that it is just a game. That's why I didn't like the original OFP that much, since it felt a bit unpolished and all. Resistance improved the graphics, by many ways, and IMO gives me a better, more immersive experience.

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (USMC Sniper @ Feb. 12 2003,01:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Feb. 12 2003,017)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the games industry is still in a state of flux as they transition from a single or small scale MP state of design to a large Massivily Multiplayer Online one.  Not to say that single player games will disappear, but multiplayer is where the money is.

Look at the Sims.  Here was a game that was making money hand over fist as a single player experience, but someone decided they knew better, and came out with Sims Online.

I'm not really impressed with the majority of games that have come out lately though.  I hold Fallout (1&2), Ultima VII, and Daggerfall as examples of games where you could do almost anything you wanted, and interact completely with the environment.  For the most part this has been laking in the majority of games from the last few years.  Notable exception would be Morrowind.

I think games have had enough eye candy for the time being, it's time to return to substance and interactivity.  Bring back our Ultimas, our Fallouts, our Wing Commanders, our Operation Flashpoints, and our Zorks.  I think it's high time to put the game back in gaming.<span id='postcolor'>

What's wrong with eye candy? Considering technology is improving, theres absolutely nothing wrong with eye candy. Resistances graphics are okay, but not great, but its still is great fun. Morrowind has terrific graphics, and it's a great game. Smae goes for Mafia, IL2, FS2002, etc. It's not like good graphics are a sacrifice for gameplay. I bought U2 and I think it's a really fun game, who cares if it's point and shoot, technically OFP is the same, but U2 does it more simply. Plus good graphics add to the immersiveness of a game, and IMO that's very important. When a game has crummy graphics, and good gameplay, the gameplay will not make up for the feeling that it is just a game. That's why I didn't like the original OFP that much, since it felt a bit unpolished and all. Resistance improved the graphics, by many ways, and IMO gives me a better, more immersive experience.<span id='postcolor'>

Eye candy is great as long as it doesn't damage gameplay and atmosphere. As soon as eye candy not gameplay becomes a priority for developers the game is ruined

[Guest]

There's nothing wrong with eye candy, but after a short while most people will only continue to play (and buy expansions for) games that really capture their imagination in terms of gameplay.

As an example I am so sick of first person shooters (other than Q3...but I have clan commitments there) at the moment. SOF2, UT2003, Urban Terror 2.6, Black Hawk Down, Navy Seals, MOHAA, America's Army, Veitnam (or whatever it's called), whatever the next release of CS is, blah blah blah. They are all sooooo similar......I've gone right off them. I started playing my emu version of Pirates! again....because of the challenging gameplay...and that's a 1991 Amiga game.

Sex and drugs have been around in games for as long as I can recall. Leisure Suit Larry anyone?? The thing that will start to happen a bit more is advertising (it's coming folks). I was playing the demo of Nascar2003 (which sucks BTW) lost control, and slammed into the wall......which had a row of Pepsi ads along it. You know this sort of thing is going to happen more and more, especially in Sports games.

While I'm on a roll have any of you checked out this article?

3DMark2003 Review

Makes for some interesting reading, but left me with more questions than answers....like why are game developers even making the engines they do, what games are actually even going to make use of DX9 this year and who the hell is going to use a bench marking program that takes up 1Gb (yes, you read correctly) of hard drive space???

This is your Captain speaking. We are losing cabin pressure...

[Renagade 0]

Talking of ads ina games when u first load up ut2k2 u get a stupid nvida ad and most games mags u get today,when u get home and open it up a thousand bloody advert pamphlets fall out

[Antichrist 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Feb. 12 2003,06:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Talking of ads ina games when u first load up ut2k2 u get a stupid nvida ad and most games mags u get today,when u get home and open it up a thousand bloody advert pamphlets fall out <span id='postcolor'>

That is why any game on Unreal 2 engine does not work properly on Radeon cards!

[ralphwiggum 6]

the game industry grew big enough that now they can make similar games from same engine with a little twist and sell it off and still make profit. and that leads to many dev-ers whoa re willing to take safe-road to make money. said, but true.

BIS took a different approach, which itself is a revolutionary feat. and such revoultionary feat never comes without sacrifice. if this game was not as good as it is, then BIS would be having hard time. luckily, there were plenty of demand for OFP-type game, and BIS managed to get it.

however, creating a distinguishing revolutionary is like composing a new classical symphony that will last forever. it is a hard job, and from human's perspective, it gets nervous and you want to take safe road, so you end up producing game's equivalent of what Britney Spears is to pop music.

[PiNs_Da_Smoka 0]

People complain about eye candy? I'm sorry, but this day in age, how can you not have it? Engines are getting better and better everyday. Eye candy over gameplay is what you say some developers choose? Maybe. But i have one example which i'm almost sure has high amounts of both, Deus Ex 2. Have you seen screenies of this? Amazing models, nice environments, and talk about kick ass lighting! Looks like a demon-less version of DooM 3. In fact, the screenies i saw looked exactly like the doom 3 engine. Regardless if it was the same engine (hypothetically) its still a different game, totally. If a developer can take someone elses engine and make a totally different game, whether its a completely different story nothing like the original (American McGees Alice using the Q3 engine) or whole new gameplay, its ok. But people must understand, not every game developer is a revolutionary. I mean, if everyone could paint like picasso, we'd be picking up paintings at Burger King along with a large fry and those Hershey Pie things. Sometimes you gotta feed through the crap for a little while till something great comes along. I mean, whats the worst that comes out of a new game? You have something to burn a little time when you're bored? And even some of the "decent" games are really fun and can provide a good amount of entertainment. Let games happen, don't complain because they don't come out exactly how you want them.

[Longinius 1]

I see a lot of mention of games here and how they really arent revolutionary anymore. Well, it has a lot to do with finding a winning formula and getting the most out of it.

There are however games that are quite innovative and different from the rest. Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, Battlefield 1942 and so on.

But its basically like the movie industry. The groundbreaking and novel movies are few and far in between. While we are waiting for the next one, they dish out sequals, remakes and flat out copies of movies or movie concepts.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone has a problem with eye-candy. I think what people have a problem with is games like Unreal2, which has lush eye-candy but zero replay value. Ideally of course you get both, but that rarely seems the case. As good as DeusEx2 might look, if it doesn't play even half as well as the original ('cos I loved that game), then I won't bother buying it. And that's what it comes down to...what sells....and that has more to do with gameplay/replay value than sparkly graphics. Look at CS....ugly when compared most of the other games in it's genre, but what gets played the most?

I also think using/tweaking someone else's engine is fine...in fact it's necessary for a lot of developers to actually get their stuff made. Alice is an excellent example...I doubt it would ever have been made if an engine had to be built from scratch.

In my previous post I was refering to how 3DMark2003 was made, and what they used (read the HardOC article)....nothing which you could really call a game engine. That's what interested me.....why make one at all if you can code it onto DX directly?

I understand that not every game developer is not a Picasso....that's rather obvious But you know, a little more thought occasionally wouldn't go astray. As logninius said it's similar to the movie industry....sort of. My ratio is roughly 1 movie I love for every 20 I see....but I'm picky

[WKK Gimbal 0]

There's plenty of games with new, groundbreaking gameplay and innovations - I'd say more than there ever was. This discussion is as old as the game industry - people probably used to complain that Donkey Kong didn't have as good gameplay as Tetris and was all flashy show-off.

Look at the upcoming Deus Ex 2 - it's AI detection and search programming is absolutely groundbreaking. Same goes for Neverwinter Night's ability to play multiplayer RP with a live DungeonMaster (I need a drug to stop playing this game). What about Mafia? It had little/no support for player modding or expansion, but the gameplay was a blast (as long as it lasted), I've always dreamt of drive-by shootings in a Ford A, yay. Hitman 1 & 2 also shows/showed some great innovations in objectives and solutions.

Sure, there's tons of lame no-brainer games, but there always has been - those of the past have just been forgotten. I think we have lots to look forward to.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WKK Gimbal @ Feb. 12 2003,19:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There's plenty of games with new, groundbreaking gameplay and innovations<span id='postcolor'>

The dead arise! Hi Gimbal!

My contribution: OFP can't be far behind.

[interstat 0]

Great discussion about Eye Candy. O.K eye candy is cool, but not the be all and end all, especially when having to update one's PC. Graphic cards are extortionate, particularly original GeForce and Radeon cards, not the franchise ones, when considering how many people own a PC, and their Price in realtion to other components such as emory, DVD drives and even monitors (maybe overreacting there)

I think what Leone said:

'I think what people have a problem with is games like Unreal2, which has lush eye-candy but zero replay value.'

Hits the nail on the head. When your departing with your hard earned sterling you want value for money, same with CD's, Films and other entertainment products. Being able to use them over and over agin and get satisfation and joy again and again is essential.

Its such a shame when a game has been in development for 2 to 5 years and then turns out to be a pile of tosh that has been hyped to the rafters, by loved-up games magazines. Oh well what can you expect from the capitalist pigs (sic)....

I'm glad someone has rated Morrowind, was thinking about buying it. Can any one give me the low down on it? Like it's stand out points and gameplay functions.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Feb. 11 2003,22:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This should've gone in Offtopic, but you make some good points. As gaming has become a bigger and bigger business, developers have stopped thinking in creative or quality terms, and more about what will make them the most money. Luckily, there's still developers out there (like BIS) who can buck the trend, but because they aren't interested in catering to the mainstream (the same mainstream that made the Sims and its many patches -I mean expansion packs- the best-selling game ever), they will never get the success or support they deserve.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree and disagree.

I agree that the gaming industry has much more grown into the hands of tough investors that want to see good return at little risk. No wonder we see games such as Jedi Knights being reproduced over and over..

On the other hand we should not ignore that only IT-specialists were working on games because they knew what could be put into reality. But now technology gives barely any limits to what and what not can be put into practice. Therefore the industry employs more and more creative workers such as scripters, animators and creative drawers. This certainly gives a boost to the creativity of the games. But as always...the investor has the final word and he rather chooses the secure way!

[Othin 0]

My point was that eye candy is taking precedence over gameplay. Hopefully Freelancer and MOO3 can follow in the footsteps of Morrowind and Mafia and combine incredible graphics with an engaging game.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

You step on you own feet here. OFP was an eyekandy

[interstat 0]

I would say its eye candy, especially seeing they've replicated entire islands!!!