Doped pilots

[Supah 0]

Brave man, must be pretty sure he did no wrong.

At the least this way someone's going down for this, either the top brass or him will have to face the music, none of this slap in the wrist BS. Maybe it'll even curb this friendly fire tradition.

Mwoah, I myself think it was an honest mistake no matter how stupid one it was. I hear allot of talk about the USAF and their horrid record on this. Though it is regretable i dont think this is done on purpose, neither do you i know. The fog of war i guess. I think the pilot who kills friendly forces feels bad enough afterwards .... its enough of a punishment. To me it seems one of the worst things that can happen to a pilot. If he was on drugs, I feel it was a cultural matter.

[Tovarish 0]

Mwoah, I myself think it was an honest mistake no matter how stupid one it was. Though it is regretable i dont think this is done on purpose, neither do you i know. The fog of war i guess.

Accidental manslaughter is still a criminal offence

Quote[/b] ]I think the pilot who kills friendly forces feels bad enough afterwards.... its enough of a punishment.

Would you say the same of the reckless driver who kills one of your loved ones?

Quote[/b] ]To me it seems one of the worst things that can happen to a pilot.

I imagine being bombed by your own air support must be one of the worst things that can happen to infantry

Quote[/b] ] If he was on drugs, I feel it was a cultural matter.

....ok....so that makes everything allright?

[Warin 0]

Brave man, must be pretty sure he did no wrong.

At the least this way someone's going down for this, either the top brass or him will have to face the music, none of this slap in the wrist BS. Maybe it'll even curb this friendly fire tradition.

Mwoah, I myself think it was an honest mistake no matter how stupid one it was. I hear allot of talk about the USAF and their horrid record on this. Though it is regretable i dont think this is done on purpose, neither do you i know. The fog of war i guess. I think the pilot who kills friendly forces feels bad enough afterwards .... its enough of a punishment. To me it seems one of the worst things that can happen to a pilot. If he was on drugs, I feel it was a cultural matter.

That's awfully inane..

Oooooh...think of how bad he feels for what he did! That is puinishment enough!

Balls to that. This guy dropped a 500 pound bomb on his own team!

Oops, sorry just doesnt cut it.

When some guy with a semi crashes the thing through negligence, and kills people, he goes to jail and his employer gets whacked with a big wrongful death suit. The fact that this guy was behind the stick of a killing machine like an F-16, and from nearly TWO miles straight up decided that some flashes were life threatening (never mind that neither he nor his wingman took any hits) makes him negligent in my book. I hope they fucking loock him up!

Yeah, I am not even remotely impartial here. I'll admit it.

[Supah 0]

Yeah, I am not even remotely impartial here. I'll admit it.

Well first off you really should know better being a moderator. Secondly what makes it life threatning? the fact that people are shooting at you or the fact the people are shooting at you and actually hitting you? You doubt he feels bad about it? Well think again. Anyone with a bit of empathy should feel for this guy. I can imagine how i would feel, i doubt this pilot is all that much different. The people who were killed no doubt had families and it is awfull this ever happened but to think this leaves the pilot who dropped the bombs completly cold is just naive.

[Tovarish 0]

to think this leaves the pilot who dropped the bombs completly cold is just naive.

And who the hell said that? If I got plastered tonight, decided to drive home and ended up leaving some kids bodyparts strewn across the road, yeah I'd feel pretty bad about that I would say, but would that make it ok? I'm not saying hang the pilot, but someone needs to take the fall for this, a slap in the wrist is unacceptable. For all we know, his case might be right and the top brass will be found responsible.

[Supah 0]

Accidental manslaughter is still a criminal offence

Yes and he should be tried, just keep in to account this is ACCIDENTAL manslaughter and not murder as it is made out to be

Quote[/b] ]Would you say the same of the reckless driver who kills one of your loved ones?

The average person who is allowed to drive a car is far les well trained and skilled then the averge fighter pilot. The fact that he made a mistake isnt at trial here. The reason why is. If he was forced to take "Go-pills" then the person who made him take those pills (yes made, sure he could have refused ... it would have costed him his job though) is very very wrong.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]To me it seems one of the worst things that can happen to a pilot.

I imagine being bombed by your own air support must be one of the worst things that can happen to infantry

Circle logic, lots of fun. In the end both things are bad but you cant escape the idea that he must feel pretty bad about what he has done and there is no way he can undo that. If you know that feeling and i do its the worst thing that can happen to a person

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ] If he was on drugs, I feel it was a cultural matter.

....ok....so that makes everything allright?

It most certainly doesnt, yet it does shed a new light on the affair.

Quote[/b] ]And who the hell said that? If I got plastered tonight, decided to drive home and ended up leaving some kids bodyparts strewn across the road, yeah I'd feel pretty bad about that I would say, but would that make it ok? I'm not saying hang the pilot, but someone needs to take the fall for this, a slap in the wrist is unacceptable. For all we know, his case might be right and the top brass will be found responsible.

 See you would CHOOSE to get plastered, no one twisting your arm saying "drink this pint of vodka". In his case there was. Plus can you really compare drunk driving to this?

[Tovarish 0]

Accidental manslaughter is still a criminal offence

Yes and he should be tried, just keep in to account this is ACCIDENTAL manslaughter and not murder as it is made out to be

What are YOU smoking my friend? NO ONE here has said this was intentional - i.e murder. We all know it was accidental!! But "oops my bad" dosen't cut it! Someone needs to be found responsible and this has to be adressed so it stops happening!

[Supah 0]

Accidental manslaughter is still a criminal offence

Yes and he should be tried, just keep in to account this is ACCIDENTAL manslaughter and not murder as it is made out to be

What are YOU smoking my friend? NO ONE here has said this was intentional - i.e murder. We all know it was accidental!! But "oops my bad" dosen't cut it! Someone needs to be found responsible and this has to be adressed so it stops happening!

I have not been smoking a damn thing (by exception), and i was reply more to warin and the reply wasnt exceptly as light hearted as "Whoops my bad" as you are betraying it.

[Warin 0]

Yeah, I am not even remotely impartial here. I'll admit it.

Well first off you really should know better being a moderator. Secondly what makes it life threatning? the fact that people are shooting at you or the fact the people are shooting at you and actually hitting you? You doubt he feels bad about it? Well think again. Anyone with a bit of empathy should feel for this guy. I can imagine how i would feel, i doubt this pilot is all that much different. The people who were killed no doubt had families and it is awfull this ever happened but to think this leaves the pilot who dropped the bombs completly cold is just naive.

I am not flaming you, nor any other member. Being a moderator doesnt mean I lose my right to an opinion, it just means that I have to be careful not to get into flame wars.

All I am pointing out that the pilot of that aircraft was negligent.

I would never for a moment think that he did it on purpose.

But as Tovarish said, just being sorry doesnt cut it. Any negligence that results in death should be punished the same way. Manslaughter is for cases where there was not willful intent to harm, and that's why I can say this guy commited manslaughter. Anyone accusing him of murder has their technicalities out of whack.

[Supah 0]

 Any negligence that results in death should be punished the same way.

So you would have this guy executed?

[Tovarish 0]

I have not been smoking a damn thing (by exception), and i was reply more to warin and the reply wasnt exceptly as light hearted as "Whoops my bad" as you are betraying it.

I don't see anything Warin has posted that is in escense different from what I have said, and who cares what the reply has been? The reply has been "not my fault" - the brass has said "yes it is - but we won't court martial you" well, now he wants a court martial to clear his name, so in the end him or the top brass will have to face the music for manslaughter....what is your problem with that?

PS - replace my "drunk driving" example with "reckless" whatever, it was a simplified example, I just can't phathom how you think he shouldn't be held accountable because he feels bad about it.

[Warin 0]

 Any negligence that results in death should be punished the same way.

So you would have this guy executed?

Beg your pardon?

Mind showing me where I ever stated I was a proponent of capital punishment, let alone where I said this guy deserved to be executed

If you commit manslaughter, usually you get a few years in jail. With good behaviour, you'll prolly be out before the families of those soldiers stop hurting.

[Supah 0]

I have not been smoking a damn thing (by exception), and i was reply more to warin and the reply wasnt exceptly as light hearted as "Whoops my bad" as you are betraying it.

I don't see anything Warin has posted that is in escense different from what I have said, and who cares what the reply has been? The reply has been "not my fault" - the brass has said "yes it is - but we won't court martial you" well, now he wants a court martial to clear his name, so in the end him or the top brass will have to face the music for manslaughter....what is your problem with that?

PS - replace my "drunk driving" example with "reckless" whatever, it was a simplified example, I just can't phantom how you think he shouldn't be held accountable because he feels bad about it.

I think one shouldnt crucify the guy who made the mistake but rather look in the circumstances (go pills, to many flying hours, to high work pressure) that facillitated this mistake. I am not saying he should get off scott free, I am saying he is not the real guilty person here and that allot of persons forget that he is probably as much the victim of this then the people he mistakenly killed.

[Supah 0]

 Any negligence that results in death should be punished the same way.

So you would have this guy executed?

Beg your pardon?

Mind showing me where I ever stated I was a proponent of capital punishment, let alone where I said this guy deserved to be executed

If you commit manslaughter, usually you get a few years in jail.  With good behaviour, you'll prolly be out before the families of those soldiers stop hurting.

Sorry must have misread that sentence. I read it that you felt that he should be killed like his victims. Sorry.

[Tovarish 0]

I think one shouldnt crucify the guy who made the mistake but rather look in the circumstances (go pills, to many flying hours, to high work pressure) that facillitated this mistake. I am not saying he should get off scott free, I am saying he is not the real guilty person here and that allot of persons forget that he is probably as much the victim of this then the people he mistakenly killed.

Great! So he's getting a trial to have a chance to clear his name? What's the fucking problem then?! The outrage was caused when the brass said "yeah, he was the one at fault, but we won't put him to trial". This way a proper trial is heard and either he is found guilty, or the higher ups are. I really don't understand how you have a problem with this.

[Warin 0]

I have not been smoking a damn thing (by exception), and i was reply more to warin and the reply wasnt exceptly as light hearted as "Whoops my bad" as you are betraying it.

I don't see anything Warin has posted that is in escense different from what I have said, and who cares what the reply has been? The reply has been "not my fault" - the brass has said "yes it is - but we won't court martial you" well, now he wants a court martial to clear his name, so in the end him or the top brass will have to face the music for manslaughter....what is your problem with that?

PS - replace my "drunk driving" example with "reckless" whatever, it was a simplified example, I just can't phantom how you think he shouldn't be held accountable because he feels bad about it.

I think one shouldnt crucify the guy who made the mistake but rather look in the circumstances (go pills, to many flying hours, to high work pressure) that facillitated this mistake. I am not saying he should get off scott free, I am saying he is not the real guilty person here and that allot of persons forget that he is probably as much the victim of this then the people he mistakenly killed.

This guy is in no way a victim. Not even remotely. He's a guy that fucked up for many reasons. It doesnt help that apparently his command structure let him down, but that doesnt make him any less responsible. All he had to do was wait sixty seconds for some clarification and this incident would bnever have happened. And since his threat warning system would clearly have shown he wasnt being tracked by enemy radar. and since the flashes werent anywhere near his A/C, he should have waited to drop that bomb.

Sorry bout that misunderstanding. I meant that if a truck driver negligently kills someone and goes to jail, so should an F-16 pilot.

[DracoPaladore 0]

. The fog of war i guess.

Fog of war? LMAO. Canadian soldiers had approval and informed the American's what they were doing and where they were. It's mostly USAF's problem for not breifing the pilots of allied positions.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Quote[/b] ] The fog of war i guess.

Why is it that every time I hear that line, my eyes want to roll to the back of my head and never come back?

Jeez, the training range at Tarnak farms had been used as a training area for quite a while, and just about every night, training was being conducted by coalition forces at the range. Kandahar itself was lit up like a Christmas tree. Yet a pilot still feels the need to role-in in self defence from small arms fire while flying more than a mile high over an area that had been inactive for months.

Doesn't he know that Russian made tracers are green and not red anyway?

"Fog of War" my ass.

Oh no, there go my eyes again...............

[Tovarish 0]

For some reason, recent discussion in the Lo-Mac thread reminded me to check on this.

Pilot faces "Dereliction of Duty" charges

Wow, 6 month maximum sentence....

[Commander-598 0]

Quote[/b] ] The fog of war i guess.

Why is it that every time I hear that line, my eyes want to roll to the back of my head and never come back?

Jeez, the training range at Tarnak farms had been used as a training area for quite a while, and just about every night, training was being conducted by coalition forces at the range. Kandahar itself was lit up like a Christmas tree. Yet a pilot still feels the need to role-in in self defence from small arms fire while flying more than a mile high over an area that had been inactive for months.

Doesn't he know that Russian made tracers are green and not red anyway?

"Fog of War" my ass.

Oh no, there go my eyes again...............

I belive there was something a bit heavier than small arms being used.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

He saw a Carl Gustav launch which he might have misconstrued as an SA-7 Grail, but unless my grasp on tactics is completely non-existent, you don't deal with a handheld SAM launch by rolling in towards the launch and setting up for a bomb run.

[Tovarish 0]

@ July 02 2003,15:42)]He saw a Carl Gustav launch which he might have misconstrued as an SA-7 Grail, but unless my grasp on tactics is completely non-existent, you don't deal with a handheld SAM launch by rolling in towards the launch and setting up for a bomb run.

Not to mention the fact that he asked for permission to get low and strafe with his cannon before he declared he was rolling in in self defense.

[DracoPaladore 0]

Correction! The Carl Gustav indeed did fire, but not fully. I beleive it was a misfire or something of the sort. This created a flash and alot of smoke. So, that I guess is what they mistaken for the SAM fire.

[Balschoiw 0]

it would only have been a thread if locked on. there was no lockon. for the same reasons afghan wedding guests had their final party. to nervous and bloodthirsty for the job.

[Warin 0]

Correction! The Carl Gustav indeed did fire, but not fully. I beleive it was a misfire or something of the sort. This created a flash and alot of smoke. So, that I guess is what they mistaken for the SAM fire.

At night. From 10,000 feet.

From that distance, I dont doubt they might have seen the flash, but a misfired AT rocket wouldnt leave much of a smoke trail.

That plus, as Bals says, no AA Missile = no tracking = no threat detection = no reason to think you're being fired on.