The Iraq Thread

[DarkLight 0]

Damn security council resolution!!!!!

[Harnu 0]

Good points with the radar Jinef, even if they aren't balanced, but I understand. But I did have to giggle at this part:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If America really wants to just get on with life and start making soap operas about 11/9<span id='postcolor'>

Just having fun with ya mate

[bn880 5]

U.S. Has no case for attack?

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 08 2003,17:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">U.S. Has no case for attack?<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denis Halliday, who resigned as the UN assistant secretary-general nearly five years ago in opposition to economic sanctions against Iraq, told Canada AM that if Iraq really had nuclear weapons, the U.S. approach would be quite different.

"We would not see the embargo and we would not see the threat of war, which for most Iraqis is literally around the corner," he said from Baghdad.<span id='postcolor'>

We wouldn't see an embargo because of Iraq having nuclear weapons? Err, what about the embargo(s) against North Korea?

The threat of war is debatable. In the North Korean situation there isn't a threat of war, but the regions are so vastly different that I can't really say there wouldn't be.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Halliday said there are many reasons the U.S. wants war with Iraq: They want to remap the Middle East, install America-friendly governments, control oil and enhance the security and possible expansion of Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

Remap the middle east? I'm not sure how that is different then his next accusation so I'll leave that alone.

Install America-friendly governments? There is NO country out there that wouldn't prefer to have governments friendly to their causes. If a regime change does come about in Iraq then of course the U.S. is going to want someone "friendly" in power. Just like the Iranians, Saudi's, Isreali's, and everyone else. I hope that the ultimate decision is left up to the Iraqi people and that the U.S. and Iran (the two biggest players in a future Iraq) stay out of the political process.

Possible expansion of Isreal? This definately came out of left field. Smells like someone has an agenda to me. But my opinion (we know how much that's worth) is that Isreal would want no part of expanding their terrirtory into Iraq. They have enough problems elsewhere. This has zero validity in my summation.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"This is not about weapons of mass destruction as far as I'm concerned." <span id='postcolor'>

That speaks for itself. The article never did seem to point out what exactly the propoganda was either. The second part of the article was a smattering of AP and line news...

[bn880 5]

OKay, I'm not siding with anything so I can't argue with you.

[Jinef 2]

The HMS Ark Royal and HMS Ocean with a load of Royal Marines and 20 support ships is heading off to Iraq as we type. Though Tony Blair is saying that the UN WIs need more time.

[DarkLight 0]

What i really hate is that the 'big guys' are nagging to eachother and bragging that they'll bomb everyone to pieces. And when the action starts, the big guys go hide in their little nuclear bunkers while us, the normal people, get bombed to pieces and while we can go fight because they want something done...

Fucking world, why not let the American Gov fight against Saddam and his gov., it'll be a fight till death, the last man standing wins...

Easy, and i'm sure there'll be peace before you know it.

[NavyEEL 0]

just an article i received via email...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Subject: Tony Parsons - London Daily Mirror

No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war,

this, from an English journalist, is very interesting.

Just a word of background, for those of you who aren't familiar with

the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is

normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002:

ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the

mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the

pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol

Pot's mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies

stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.

An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so

utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on

one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there

could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent,

the perpetrators truly evil.

But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly

seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly,

anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.

There has always been a simmering resentment to the

USA in this country - too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so

much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it

seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our

staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture,

language and blood. A little over half a century ago,

around half a million Americans died for our freedoms,

as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And

exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women

and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries - were

butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to

betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the

twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized

them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and

somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children,

some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves?

And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned

slaughter?

These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted

nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see

America as the Great Satan. The anti- American

alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who

blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World,

and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter

that the world's only superpower can do what it likes

without having to ask permission. The truth is that America

has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.

Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men

phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they

were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the

top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little

girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember, remember - and realize that America has

never retaliated for

9/11 in anything like the way it could have.

So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial

in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex...

So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after

they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full

of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they

should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world

into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of

strength. American voices are already being raised

against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is

for. How many in the Islamic world will have a

minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of

9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to

say that the mass murder of

9/11 was an abomination?

When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving

Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -

and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is

the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it

incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not

a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening

the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America

could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.

The US is the most militarily powerful nation that

ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in

Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the

planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.

But don't blame America for not bringing peace and

light to these wretched countries. How many

democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the

Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one

hand - assuming you haven't had any chopped off for

minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that

makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in

New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all,

America is hated because it is what every country

wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic.

Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some

caste system. America is the best friend this country

ever had and we should start remembering that.

Or do you really think the USA is the root of all

evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women

who leaped to their death from the burning towers.

Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on

one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing

skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands

worked for the New York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than

Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed

the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up

rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality

Street. Save me the orange center, oh mighty one!

The of the greatest atrocities in human history was

committed against America. No, do more than remember

NEVER FORGET

<span id='postcolor'>

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 14 2003,00:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">just an article i received via email...

<snip: long propaganda article>

<span id='postcolor'>

This is what I would call 'spam' mail. It is about as credible as the "Earn 50 million dollars in two seconds" mails that I recieve from time to time..

[Akira 0]

Actual Article

Actually you will be happy to know this was actually written by Tony Parsons and published 9/11/2002.

[bn880 5]

It's still spam. I mean, read the propaganda. Even what I write on the worst of days has more meaning than that pile of... doodie?

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 14 2003,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's still spam.     I mean, read the propaganda.  Even what I write on the worst of days has more meaning than that pile of... doodie?<span id='postcolor'>

"spam"? if you consider that spam, then i guess you consider EVERY news article or personal post to be "spam". it's a person voicing his opinion, and backing it up with relevant facts. just because you don't like what it has to say does not mean it's "spam." you want "spam"? how about you look at your reply--totally meaningless. it has no purpose other than to flame the post i made. at least mine has substance and value.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 14 2003,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's still spam. I mean, read the propaganda. Even what I write on the worst of days has more meaning than that pile of... doodie?<span id='postcolor'>

No worse than some of the crap I see posted on here or linked to here. Propoganda? Hardly. Opinion/Editorial? Clearly.

Least it wasn't listed as "News."

And whether it is spam or not, was merely refering to denoir not giving it any crediability. A lot of similiar spams floated around after 9/11, most of them bogus or 30 years old or not even really written. This one happens to be true.

[bn880 5]

And it is my opinion that that is pure propaganda. I called it spam to get you guys going.

Am I allowed to have an opinion.

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 14 2003,02:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Am I allowed to have an opinion.  <span id='postcolor'>

NO!

lol

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 14 2003,02:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And it is my opinion that that is pure propaganda. I called it spam to get you guys going.

Am I allowed to have an opinion. <span id='postcolor'>

Considering spam in its strictest definition is unsoliceted email...this COULD be refered to as spam.

This is no place for an opinion!

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 14 2003,02:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 14 2003,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's still spam.     I mean, read the propaganda.  Even what I write on the worst of days has more meaning than that pile of... doodie?<span id='postcolor'>

"spam"?  if you consider that spam, then i guess you consider EVERY news article or personal post to be "spam".  it's a person voicing his opinion, and backing it up with relevant facts.  just because you don't like what it has to say does not mean it's "spam."  you want "spam"?  how about you look at your reply--totally meaningless.  it has no purpose other than to flame the post i made.  at least mine has substance and value.<span id='postcolor'>

No, because spam emails only come by.. email, and are not posted. I refered to it as spam since you said you got it by mail. If you had posted it as a link to an editorial or a news article, I would have refered to it as propaganda instead.

And as for substance and value of the article, I put more value in the tissue I wipe my dear arse with

[NavyEEL 0]

it's inconsiderate people like yourself that make me proud to be an American. what gets me even more excited is that, regardless of how many immature comments you make, you have no voice OR weight in the matter of the United States of America (aka the world's only superpower and the only country actively engaged in trying to better the world). you pretend to be mature when defending your own opinions, but when it comes to the opinion of another person you simply show your ignorance and your lack of anything valuable to say. if you would open your eyes, there are many truths in this article, and you could learn a lot.

but then again, i guess you already know everything there is to know about being a dictator, censoring people's speech, and taking away people's freedoms--after all, that's all you do as a forum moderator isn't it?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 14 2003,04:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it's inconsiderate people like yourself that make me proud to be an American.  what gets me even more excited is that, regardless of how many immature comments you make, you have no voice OR weight in the matter of the United States of America (aka the world's only superpower and the only country actively engaged in trying to better the world).  you pretend to be mature when defending your own opinions, but when it comes to the opinion of another person you simply show your ignorance and your lack of anything valuable to say.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm, is it just me or do I sense a case of minority complex here?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> if you would open your eyes, there are many truths in this article, and you could learn a lot.

<span id='postcolor'>

It doesn't even attempt to hide that it is pure propaganda. It trivialises the issues to an insulting degree. What do you think about this article?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but then again, i guess you already know everything there is to know about being a dictator, censoring people's speech, and taking away people's freedoms--after all, that's all you do as a forum moderator isn't it?<span id='postcolor'>

[sarcasm]

it's inconsiderate people like yourself that make me proud to be a moderator. what gets me even more excited is that, regardless of how many immature comments you make, you have no voice OR weight in the matter of moderators (aka the forums's only administrators and the only member group actively engaged in trying to better the world). [/sarcasm]

[NavyEEL 0]

thanks for making my point clear as day.

[Akira 0]

Now now kiddies. Everyone go to their corner and cool off.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Jan. 14 2003,05:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now now kiddies. Everyone go to their corner and cool off.

<span id='postcolor'>

I don't have to cool off. Don't you know that I am a dictator who bans and censors those who don't agree with me in discussions

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">thanks for making my point clear as day. <span id='postcolor'>

You didn't answer my question NavyEEL. I am very much interested what you think of this article.

[NavyEEL 0]

i thought you said those articles were pure propaganda?

[Guest]

5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 14 2003,065)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i thought you said those articles were pure propaganda?<span id='postcolor'>

I said that the article that you posted was pure propaganda. I consider however that this article too is it too, just from the opposite viewpoint. I just wanted you to come to that conclusion by yourself.

It is quite easy to differentiate between a serious article and a pamphlett. Both the article that you posted and the link that I gave are prime examples of very biased opinions that can't be taken seriously.

[NavyEEL 0]

they're both opinions, true. all i ask is that you read and soak in what it discusses, as much of what it talks about is true--there is evidence of it on these forums. i dont need nor do i appreciate derogatory comments towards my contribution to these forums. so much for a "friendly discussion" atmosphere. how mature is it to say "i put as much value in that as the tissue i wipe my ass with"? not very. if you all would like to have a discussion, then that's what im a member of this forum for. otherwise, keep your rude comments to yourselves