The Iraq Thread

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 05 2003,00:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I've seen so far in this thread is very interesting although most arguments tend to either challenge or justify an eventual US lead war on Iraq. Instead, I'd like to hear your opinions on WHAT IS TO BE EXPECTED AFTER THE/A WAR ON IRAQ?<span id='postcolor'>

I tried bro, check this link: http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....;st=500

Everyone said "Good point Tex", and then proceeded to go back in on the same tired goddam merry-go-round of an argument that is:

"We should go into Iraq!"

"No you shouldn't!"

"Don't drag us down you commie Euro bitches! We're the land of the Free!"

"Your Momma wears combat boots!"

and so on and so forth ad-friggin-nauseaum.

Buncha damn kids.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 04 2003,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Buncha damn kids.<span id='postcolor'>

You might have to count me out of that one.

[Guest]

Ok now boys, play nice

Take care Bals

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 05 2003,04:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Buncha damn kids.<span id='postcolor'>

Hehe

Seriously....that post was very good indeed.

Can I say "good point Tex" and lets go on with this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">back in on the same tired goddam merry-go-round of an argument that is:

"We should go into Iraq!"

"No you shouldn't!"

"Don't drag us down you commie Euro bitches! We're the land of the Free!"

"Your Momma wears combat boots!"

and so on and so forth ad-friggin-nauseaum.

<span id='postcolor'>

[Tex -USMC- 0]

That last part was mostly tounge in cheek but it does kind of annoy me, because I love to argue, but I have absolutely no more interest in this same old back and forth that has occupied 77 pages

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 05 2003,05:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That last part was mostly tounge in cheek    but it does kind of annoy me, because I love to argue, but I have absolutely no more interest in this same old back and forth that has occupied 77 pages<span id='postcolor'>

.....hmm...maybe you are right. The topic is sort of exhausted at the moment. Let's bring it back after the 27th.

[5thSFG.Hawkins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 05 2003,04<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to all 5th members that feel eager to promote their funny ideas about US domination in the world:

Why dont you discuss like grown ups do ? Show facts, proof, act polite, stay on topic and dont start to flame. It is you that intends to flame, other topic contributors show facts and use their brains before they post.<span id='postcolor'>

Am I not aware of some double standard here?

I or none of the other 5th members are trying to flame. We are just disgusted by the total lack of respect shown to leaders of countries (President Bush imparticular). (On a side note, where's the evidence/facts that President Bush's policy is bad?)

We have posted to many of these threads before, not specifically on OFP but others, with numerous facts, from REPUTABLE sources. However, we have been getting tired of people criticizing their validity(sources by far more reputable than news agencies) and just out right saying our opinions were ludicrous. I have far more knowledge in these matters than most would have twice my age( and I am only 19), which is pretty sad. I know for sure that my viewpoints are not unintelligent in the slightest.

I would appreciate not getting criticized by people who say that we have to value their opinions, while ours are walked over repeatedly.

This is my first and last off topic post on this thread. I have expressed my views on Iraqi post government plans many times before.

Good day.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.Hawkins @ Jan. 04 2003,23:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 05 2003,04<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">to all 5th members that feel eager to promote their funny ideas about US domination in the world:

Why dont you discuss like grown ups do ? Show facts, proof, act polite, stay on topic and dont start to flame. It is you that intends to flame, other topic contributors show facts and use their brains before they post.<span id='postcolor'>

Am I not aware of some double standard here?

I or none of the other 5th members are trying to flame. We are just disgusted by the total lack of respect shown to leaders of countries (President Bush imparticular). (On a side note, where's the evidence/facts that President Bush's policy is bad?)<span id='postcolor'>

This is really something...

NavyEEl

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hey! retards! Bush hasn't declared war on iraq, so stop all your anti-American posts! <span id='postcolor'>

Man, are you guys lucky I am not a moderator. Is that really called for? Or is his Avatar the same as yours by accident? (never know)

Today I have seen people call threads gay, generalize people here as kids, and then retards. If you don't care about anything else, what about the atmosphere in the forums, doesn't that concern you.

[NavyEEL 0]

bn880, no our avatars aren't the same just by accident. as for my posts, in no way am i trying to decrease the atmosphere of the forums and make it a "hostile" place. however, i feel that the only way to get my point across was to state my thoughts in the manner that i did. i had to be assertive and aggressive in getting my point across, because it seems that the only way to get people to listen to an idea is to drill it through their often thick skulls. all i want is for people to look at the whole issue and think before they toss out anti-American and anti-Bush sentiments. that goes the same for remarks about any nation's leaders as well. the situation at hand is not to be taken lightly, yet it seems as if many members of this forum treat it as such. i respect you and many of your posts, bn880, and i apologize if my or anyone else's posts have detracted from your forum experience.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 05 2003,06:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">as for my posts, in no way am i trying to decrease the atmosphere of the forums and make it a "hostile" place.<span id='postcolor'>

Yet, that's exactly what you do when calling other forum members retards. You may call it being "assertive and aggressive" - I'd say you behave in a rude and disrespective manner.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the only way to get people to listen to an idea is to drill it through their often thick skulls.<span id='postcolor'>

Many forum members disagree with me on lots of issues. I wouldn't say they have thick skulls. Do you suggest people with different opinions are dumb?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">all i want is for people to look at the whole issue and think before they toss out anti-American and anti-Bush sentiments.<span id='postcolor'>

Who are you to judge. Why don't you argue like grown ups do instead of categorizing other people as US/Bush-bashers. Back up your views with arguments, facts and sound reasoning.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">that goes the same for remarks about any nation's leaders as well.  the situation at hand is not to be taken lightly, yet it seems as if many members of this forum treat it as such.  <span id='postcolor'>

Again, who are you to judge. Why do you think so many of us are sceptic towards the Bush administration? Could it possibly be because most of the world are affected by the current US foreign policy?

[bn880 5]

NavyEEl, I accept your personal apology, I can see why you and others can get frustrated (I do also), but please don't take it that low next time.

EDIT: As can be seen, the homo sapien sapien is a species that gets frustrated over it's inability to communicate it's thoughts. (no insult here)

Please, let's all relax a little, lashing out in anger from this point on will not bring anything good..........

[theavonlady 2]

Escape routes.

Interesting that N. Korea is on the list. What could they possibly have in common?

Speaking of which, what old age home is Idi Amin in nowadays?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 05 2003,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Speaking of which, what old age home is Idi Amin in nowadays? <span id='postcolor'>

maybe he mellowed out in his golden years?

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 05 2003,10:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Escape routes.<span id='postcolor'>

Belarus!

I'd love to see that scenario play out.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Belarus? That doesn't make sense at all

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Jan. 05 2003,10:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Belarus? That doesn't make sense at all<span id='postcolor'>

Yeh, I'm waiting for France to volunteer.

[Jinef 2]

I'm just going to reiterate my position as i don't think anyone actually bothered looking at it and ripping it to pieces like they usually do. I do on one point have to agree with 5SFG Hawkins on the point that most of the news sources people bring up here are not incredibly valid but i doubt the 5SFG visit the Pentagon to get their info! What sources do people have other than the news apart from first hand experience?

Has every 5SFG member been to wherever they are saying America is good and seen the happy children and flowers that America creates all over the world? I would doubt it.

I do not like what we are doing in Iraq at the moment, the RAF is not doing anything good to the region by launching unprovoked raids on Iraqi military assets which do have people manning them. We are not at war with Iraq but we are still killing it's people, call me old fashioned but i thought that was bad.

Imagine America was doing exercises with Taiwan and then China decided to blow up three destroyers who classified as a threat because their radar could penetrate Chinese airspace. Would America sit back and say " fair one mate, we did have our radars on and could have launched missiles at you so we were a threat.

What if Chinese military units were invited to a south American country and started to destroy American radar sites that could illuminate them. What if Argentina blew up radars on the Falkland Islands and started to patrol over port Stanley.

Who thinks these are fair rules and can be applied to anywhere? Okay back to my original point.

If America really wants to just get on with life and start making soap operas about 11/9 then why doesn't it, if it has proof, why not just send someone else to do it like it usually does? Would it not be better to get a multi national UN coalition together who all have this undeniable proof to go in and remove saddam and restore Iraq's power and economy but with a democracy? Without of course leaving large corporate oil companies in the region to take away Iraq's chance of actually succeeding.

If we went in and then straight back out after establishing a democracy and a downsized military who could rebuild the country and get it on it's feet we could bring an element of power to the region who would always counteract Israel's oves therefore creating a balnce of power. We could maybe even make an ally out of Iraq.

But no, America would go in and walk all over the people giving less of a shit about them than the pollution that plagues this world, it would go straight to the oil and then leave Iraq a barren wasteground of hatred and a civil war would most probably ensue causing huge instability in the ME and might even trigger a war between the two happy factions - Arab nations v Israel.

See we could go into Iraq and do good stuff, make it better for the people, but no one cares really about them, it's just the gooey stuff under their feet.

This world is so depressing when you look at it from a vantage point (like a first world country), where you can see images of people starving and you think that it would be good if they could just stop starving and Buffy could be uninterrupted. But then you think you are being callous so you do your bit - Å5 a month to a charity and you think you've done good but in reality the good you have done is on a scale so small you will probably think there's no point.

So my advice is to get a job where you feel you are doing something to help someone, you could join the forces like i did, the jobs where you help are few and far between but sometimes you feel they are worth it. At least in the RAF anyway which has won awards for relief efforts, but then i also have to remind people of their ruined lives when they look at me in NI or some other war torn ruin.

For all the people who believe that America will go in and be welcomed as they hand out food, medical supplies and blankets - you're living the American dream.

Jinef

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Jan. 05 2003,14:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do not like what we are doing in Iraq at the moment, the RAF is not doing anything good to the region by launching unprovoked raids on Iraqi military assets which do have people manning them. We are not at war with Iraq but we are still killing it's people, call me old fashioned but i thought that was bad.  

Imagine America was doing exercises with Taiwan and then China decided to blow up three destroyers who classified as a threat because their radar could penetrate Chinese airspace. Would America sit back and say " fair one mate, we did have our radars on and could have launched missiles at you so we were a threat.

What if Chinese military units were invited to a south American country and started to destroy American radar sites that could illuminate them. What if Argentina blew up radars on the Falkland Islands and started to patrol over port Stanley.

Who thinks these are fair rules and can be applied to anywhere?<span id='postcolor'>

I don't but Gulf War coalition forces have a green light from the UN (if I'm not mistaken) to patrol certain vast areas of Iraqi air space (the No-Fly-Zone?).

I don't think there are any cases where attacks were unprovoked. That is, if an Iraqi radar site turns its radars on and tracks coalition patrols, they're a potential threat to the safety of these legitimate patrols.

So, your comparisons to other countries doesn't seem to be balanced.

[Jinef 2]

From the inside scoop, the RAF is being naughty.

An iraqi radar outside the no fly zone which does not have the capability to shoot it's aging SA2s anywhere near our aircraft and if it did...well you know the SA2, it's like a flying telephone pole! Big, slow and easy to evade.

But the threat is not detected by the pilots being illuminated on routine patrols, it's the incursions into Iraqi airspace and attacking targets of military nature at will.

I don't mind if they patrol the no fly zone, but i do mind that we are doing illegal incursions into Iraq.

I'm not even telling you only RAF personnel stuff, this has been debated in the Guardian and other newspapers but i like the Guardian yself.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Jan. 05 2003,15:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not even telling you only RAF personnel stuff, this has been debated in the Guardian and other newspapers but i like the Guardian myself.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I prefer The FAQ.

[DarkLight 0]

I wish i had a rocket so i could fly to the moon and live there for the rest of my life...

This fucked up world sucks...

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Read this

Not only are they "painting" the planes but they are firing at them.  If they can be easily evaded or not doesn't matter.  It is still a act of agression.

"Between 1:57 and 2:30 p.m. Iraqi time Jan. 25, coalition aircraft conducting routine enforcement of the northern no-fly zone were again illuminated and fired upon by Iraqi surface-to-air missile and anti-aircraft artillery systems in several incidents."

"Two Air Force F-15E's and four F/A-18 Hornets were conducting routine enforcement of the southern no-fly zone when they responded to threats by anti-aircraft artillery fire, and by two Iraqi MiG-21s and two Iraqi MiG-23s flying south of the 33rd Parallel in Iraq."

Also, the flights are U.N. sanctioned.  April 1991 U.N. resolution designed to keep Iraq from repressing its civilian population ---- Kurds in the north and Shiite Muslims in the south.

A snippet from U.N. Resolution 1441 says:

Iraq "shall not take or threaten hostile acts" against any personnel of any U.N. member state who are "taking action to uphold" any Security Council resolution."

Another Story

Another Story

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 05 2003,15:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish i had a rocket so i could fly to the moon and live there for the rest of my life...<span id='postcolor'>

/pictures of wallace and gromit cheese expedition pass through mind

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Jan. 04 2003,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Jan. 05 2003,15:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wish i had a rocket so i could fly to the moon and live there for the rest of my life...<span id='postcolor'>

/pictures of wallace and gromit cheese expedition pass through mind<span id='postcolor'>

I remember that, mmmmm cheeeeeeese!

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

Well, Saddam could give you a SCUD to go but he is prohibited to have any ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometers - as prohibited by the UN Security Council Resolution 687.