The Iraq Thread

[-TU--33ker 0]

I only hope that we can bring peace faster to the certain areas as the USA starts wars in other places.

Comrades, I won`t forget you.

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown.  Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

I have no problem with the defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the hunt for Osama bin Laden, even if the USA failed miserably so far. My concerns are only pointed towards the current attitude of the Bush Administration to happily begin preemtive wars, one after another.

as we all can see, the Afghanistan job isn't finished yet. So why starting new wars? My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

[FallenPaladin 0]

$33ker @ June 07 2003,18:04)]as we all can see, the Afghanistan job isn't finished yet. So why starting new wars?  My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

That`s what I meant.

[Schoeler 0]

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown.  Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

Schoeler you've done better in the past. Point about the german governtment supporting the war in Afghanistan is true, but be honest, is there really any chance that attack would have happened in central Europe if the US hadn't attacked Afghanistan?

Your post just doesnt make much sense to me.

Al-Qaeda had an active cell in Hamburg. Do you think they were there for the beer?

[ralphwiggum 6]

Al-Qaeda had an active cell in Hamburg.  Do you think they were there for the beer?

who knows? Germany is land of Beers!

please, can we talk abour Iraq?

[FallenPaladin 0]

Al-Qaeda had an active cell in Hamburg.  Do you think they were there for the beer?

They were here, because they knew that Germany has a weak justice system (regarding the penalties) . Also they had great logistics here from Germany to any other countries, could study here and plan their attacks, e. g. that on September the 9th. They planned attacks against the USA in prior, maybe there would/will be some attacks here in Germany too, but their main target is the USA. If there were no USA there would be no Al Quaida. Your leadership fucked the whole world when they supported and trained Bin Laden. Now the whole world begins to suffer by the terror which found it`s origin in the USA.

The hatred in the arabic countries against the western way of life is by 80% based on hatred against the ignorant supermight USA. The leadership of the USA started that devil`s wheel and is now happily turning it faster and faster.

[Necromancer- 0]

Today I've read that the Dutch are going to send a "light armed" peace keeping force to the rather "peacefull" Iraq. The detachment consists of 3 chinook helicopters (target drones for AAguns mounted on technicals), 1200 men of which 950 Royal Marines and 150 engineers.

For heavy support, they are going to rely on external resources.... IE the British.... again I think..

FFS...I really hope this is NOT going to be another Sebrenica.

Again we send our men and women lightly armed in an extremely hostile environment.

Will the Dutch government NEVER learn??

At least send one of those Leopard 2A5 battalions. Perhaps we'll finally get see if they're really better than the M1A2 Abrams.

[Schoeler 0]

Al-Qaeda had an active cell in Hamburg.  Do you think they were there for the beer?

They were here, because they knew that Germany has a weak justice system (regarding the penalties) . Also they had great logistics here from Germany to any other countries, could study here and plan their attacks, e. g. that on September the 9th. They planned attacks against the USA in prior, maybe there would/will be some attacks here in Germany too, but their main target is the USA. If there were no USA there would be no Al Quaida. Your leadership fucked the whole world when they supported and trained Bin Laden. Now the whole world begins to suffer by the terror which found it`s origin in the USA.

The hatred in the arabic countries against the western way of life is by 80% based on hatred against the ignorant supermight USA. The leadership of the USA started that devil`s wheel and is now happily turning it faster and faster.

There were cells in Italy and Britain too. Part of it is that the justice system in Germany is weak, and part of it is that they are considering German targets. Don't think its all about the U.S., its about western civilization, of which you are a part and thus a target too. Radical Islam considers Europe an infidel, and supporter of the Jewish State. You are their enemy, and they will kill you just as quickly as they killed us. Stop deluding yourselves. Bin Laden was trained by the CIA to combat the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. For those of you so concerned about Afghani freedom and independence from U.S. occupation today, it seems pathetically hypocritical of you from my point of view to deny the injustice of the soviet domination of the same country yesterday. Al-Qaeda would exist without the U.S., you can thank the Soviets for that. If it hadn't been us, someone else would have been their enemy next.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Schoeler-"

Quote[/b] ]Don't think its all about the U.S., its about western civilization, of which you are a part and thus a target too.  Radical Islam considers Europe an infidel, and supporter of the Jewish State"

Thats the line the US government has gone for but dont be too sure on this Schoeler. Look at it from an Islamic extremists viewpoint. They are humans, they dont hate totally blindly.On the contrary they hate with some degree of insight (which can be more dangerous). How do you think Osama Bin Laden has managed to make himself popular in unfortunately large (especially younger) parts of the muslim world? There is a twisted logic to 'Islamic' extremism and terrorism and there is an emotional pull for young muslims. The percieved motivation for attacking Copenhagen or Athens whilst existing is surely much smaller than for attacking say Washington.

Israel rightly considers europe a supporter of the palestinean state. As long as most european countries are supporting the Palestinean Authority, providing a cozy base for cells and not supporting America much then the priority targets will be Israeli , American and now likely British. What purpose would be served by bombing a Danish nightclub or attacking the German Bundestag? Of course Al Quaida are no fans of european liberal democracy but why should or would they divert much attention from their prime targets (Non islamic/pro western arab states, Israel, Jewish interests and American targets)?

Of course they may attack Jewish, American and likely British targets in any country but i dont expect a major attack on the populations of the 'axis of weasel' countries. Of course there may be the odd bomb plot in europe but America has taken Al Quaidas bait and the fight is on for the Terrorists with europeans being only minor infidels compared to the Great Satan.

[Guest]

Yepp, I agree with that assessment. I think that the Iraq war only reinforced that position. The anti-war European countries got a lot of good press in the Arab world.

Also the fact that Israel isn't at all too fond of the EU's initiatives to protect the Palestinians takes a lot of heat away from Europe.

The notion of them being against the "western civlization and style of life" is pure BS originating from total lack of understanding of the conflict. It's also heavily used by the political spin doctors who advocate for the "war on terror".

They may not approve of our culture, just as we in many respects don't approve of theirs. What they are killing for is not because of that disapproval but because the forced superimposition of our culture on to theirs (and the political agenda with it).

[USSoldier11B 0]

I do think that the U.S. abandoning Afghanistan after the war with the former Soviet Union was a mistake. We are feeling a lot of operational blow-back now. The U.S. made some dubious allies during the war against communism and Kolmenhi. Enemies were made by abandoning them when our needs were met. I disagree, I think this is very much a cultural thing, as well as some festering wounds from the past, including mostly how yes, we did use arab militias to fight our battles, and our support for Israel. However, I do agree with the part about the US imposing it's political agenda on the middle East. But, also remember that the nations opposed to the U.S. actions in the middle east. This opposition is not based on the interests of the indigenous population, but rather on those counties own vested interests in the region. France has heavy economic ties with Iraq and uh....what kind of military equipment do they use again? (tounge firmly in cheek) I am so very very tired of all this finger pointing. No, the U.S. is not perfect, no just like every other nation-state on this planet we are not completely benevolent. Do I think this war was about WMD? No, absolutely not. This blunder was created by the Bush Adminstration, as some of you might remember I was firmly against DA in Iraq because I think the wrong reasons were stated for going there. The truth is that the U.S. is cleaning up a political quagmire that it created in the region during the 70's and 80's, when a much more formidable enemy was the focus. I'm old enough to remember well the anti-Red mania of the 80's. I do think the U.S. is directly responsible for creating the circumstances then that put people in power that have no business ruling nations (case in point: Saddam Hussien) YES AS AN AMERICAN I DO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILTY FOR MY GOVERNMENT'S MISTAKES IN THE MID-EAST DURING THE COLD WAR. IT IS OUR FAULT!!!! I doubt that any of you except for the most anti-American of you will disagree that the Taliban and the Hussien regime were composed mostly of thugs. The civil rights records of both of the organizations speak for themselves. So why all of the harsh opposition against cleaning up a mess WE made? For any of you to say that your own nation's political ambitions have never caused problems relative in size to your own economic and political power is not only ignorant but also outright sactimonious.

[Guest]

But, also remember that the nations opposed to the U.S. actions in the middle east. This opposition is not based on the interests of the indigenous population, but rather on those counties own vested interests in the region. France has heavy economic ties with Iraq and uh....what kind of military equipment do they use again? (tounge firmly in cheek)

Absolutely, but you must agree that not starting a war our of self-interests is better than starting a war out of self-interest.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt that any of you except for the most anti-American of you will disagree that the Taliban and the Hussien regime were composed mostly of thugs. The civil rights records of both of the organizations speak for themselves. So why all of the harsh opposition against cleaning up a mess WE made?

Nobody argues that both Saddam's regime and the Taliban regime were brutal dictatorhips that tormented their people. The problem is that you havn't in any way cleaned up the mess: you've created a worse one. Just take a look at Afghanistan today. Only about half of Kabul and the airport in Kabul are under control. The rest of the country is in complete chaos, ruled by warlords and bandits. When the Taliban were in power they kept all these elements in control. Not any longer.

The Iraq situation is obviously not good either. What the Bush administration hasn't realized is that a "fast food" solution isn't going to work. The Bush regime obviously thought (if they did think at all) that- remove Saddam and all the Iraqis will become happy, thank the US and open up McDonlads franchises. Not so. And how do they respond to the daily demonstrations that demand that the US leaves Iraq? They stall with the democratization processes. Not to say that Baghdad still hasn't got water and electricity!

Quote[/b] ]For any of you to say that your own nation's political ambitions have never caused problems relative in size to your own economic and political power is not only ignorant but also outright sactimonious.

Of course they did. During the 30-year war in Europe, Sweden leveled half of Germany to the ground, raping and pillaging to that extent that today 350 years later they still in some parts of Germany say to the children "Behave or the Swede is coming to take you!".

Why on earth would you want to have such a legacy? Why would you in this modern day and age want to make the same mistakes that Europe did centuries ago?

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

USSoldier11B - Interesting thinking.

By that reasoning i suppose us British should declare that our former colonies and administered territories have become a real mess and its our duty to clean it up so therefore we should (re)invade Pakistan, perhaps India, Israel, a quarter of Africa, Iraq (oh yes we already have), Hong Kong ..lots of other places.. Singapore was looking a bit iffy on the human rights front last time i checked, Americas invading other countries so that will have to go..

France must reinvade North Africa to clean things up, Belgium Congo etc.

Wonderful  

Whilst i can see the reasoning, dont you think theres a chance invading countries to get rid of enemies you helped create might backfire once again and create more enemies who must themselves be fought thus creating a whole new group of appalled foes etc etc ad infinitum?

[FallenPaladin 0]

By that reasoning i suppose us British should declare that our former colonies and administered territories have become a real mess and its our duty to clean it up so therefore we should (re)invade Pakistan, perhaps India, Israel, a quarter of Africa, Iraq (oh yes we already have), Hong Kong ..lots of other places.. Singapore was looking a bit iffy on the human rights front last time i checked, Americas invading other countries so that will have to go..

You forgot to mention America!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]IsthatyouJohnWayne- front last time i checked, Americas invading other countries so that will have to go..

Quote[/b] ]

FallenPaladin- You forgot to mention America!

You forgot to wear your glasses! (or i didnt make myself clear )

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I just watched an interesting documentary called 'Raiders Of The Lost Art' about the Baghdad museum looting presented by some BBC guy whos been making archeology programmes for some years. My conclusions following reports that the great majority of the artifacts are safe(ish) after watching this documentary (and agreeing with most of the presenters conclusions)?

The US army is absolved of guilt in this matter and the museum staff deserve as the presenter suggested to be sacked from their jobs. My opinion of the world media in general and the quality level of 24 hour newsflash type reporting just went down (even lower). From the evidence i saw the museum appeared to be a Ba'athist stronghold with entrenched Special Republican Guard and militia positions and apparently a longterm barracking which the museum staff sucessfully covered up from the (unquestioning) world media. The documentary seemed quite believable to me. The presenter (an archeology fanatic) visited the same museum before the war and st the time seemed very impressed by and friendly with the staff. In the documentary he interviewed locals, US troops, museum staff etc and there was footage of the 'store rooms'....a total and utter mess, the museum staff did a terrible job storing the artifacts with no records for what appeared to be the vast majority of the stuff. In addition at least some of staff appeared to have colluded in the major thefts , likely involving important Ba'athist figures and perhaps the soldiers stationed in the museum. I could go on but ill just say those who formed an opinion of the US forces based on this episode should certainly rethink those views (and alter their opinion on the sensationalist nature of most media reporting).

So as i have said, based on the evidence i have just seen i absolve the US military of guilt in this matter and call into question the honour of the museum staff.

I am sorry i was ever duped by the media hype (and patant lies due reporting). Perhaps Denoir and others who went into overdrive on this issue should rethink.

A bit rambling..hangover uurgh

[Guest]

Wow, a British propaganda program shown on British state television. That really makes me change my mind.  

No thank you, I'll put more faith in the interview with the crying superintendent of the museum. Either she was very upset with the lack of protection or she was a very good actor.

Quote[/b] ]I am sorry i was ever duped by the media hype (and patant lies due reporting). Perhaps Denoir and others who went into overdrive on this issue should rethink.

I saw a program on the TV where the Iraqi information minister said that Bush and Blair were in Iraq to exterminate the Iraqi people. Perhaps IsThatYouJohnWayne and others who went into overdrive on this issue should rethink.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

*sigh* i knew there would be questioning and i really dont want to have to explain the whole program scene by scene-

Youde really have to watch it...

Anyway not to get into a trivial discussion but the BBC is not funded by the government but payed for by the people directly. The BBC answers or is supposed to answer to the British licence payers (everyone with a TV) not the government.

It did not appear to me to be propaganda. It was a fucking archeology program, the last show was in Israel and was filmed during the Iraq war (incidentally the Israelis came over rather badly) then after the war ended he went into Iraq. He was investigating the looting of the items and as i said used to be on good terms with the museum staff(who he had visited before). Those same staff who cried to your camaras acted EXTREMELY suspiciously and have openly lied to the media. Thats a fact. They knew the location of the damn storage vaults and had the keys but were extremely evasive to questioning to the point of putting hands over camaras and walking away from interviews (one woman almost crying). There were storage rooms totally full of artifacts. Not carefully placed but strewn over the floor with no records kept. The staff admitted that that was how they had stored artifacts to a US serviceman charged with investigating the extent of looting on camera in an uncut sequence. There were grenades, RPGs being found throughout the museum, trenches outside which US troops insist they found full of ammunition having bust in(and RPG rounds were found on the roof). There was a large hole in the wall that US troops insist the tanks made in shooting RPG attackers on the roof. These werent some shady media liason officers saying this but the grunts guarding the compound (yes with tanks by now!) who had fought their way in against what they estimated to be some hundreds of Iraqi troops located at the museum etc etc

I could go on and on. The whole thing stank. It really dont think it was just a superb propaganda con of great editing. I know it wasnt. You could see live on tape how suspicious everything was. Most of the important items have now been found (almost all in storage areas that the Iraqis did not mention to the media previously), there are some 2000 minor missing items left unfound and yes there was some genuine looting but not on anything near such a great scale as was reported in relation to the museum. The museum staff were of course linked to the Saddam (mis)government no? There was an element of planning to at least some of the thefts no? (surely you dont deny this?)

Is it really so impossible that Baath party members, Saddams people ,the army or whoever made off with some of the good stuff after enlisting at least some or likely all of the museum staff to their cause and then the Museum staff attempted to cover it up. (the locals at least have branded museum staff as Baathists)

You think the Museum staff care too much for the relics to do such a thing?

You should have seen the storage rooms... an utter mess. Piles of historic objects all over the floor mixed in with rubbish and old military equipment. Yes you read right. Some of the objects were certainly damaged by museum staff .The US troops and the presenter of the documentary were almost stepping on tablets just walking around in the room. No records of any kind for almost all the objects. The museum  woman who led them to the location looked very guilty as this happened and was almost crying it appeared as the American officer questioned her on the appaling conditions. In addition i dont think the old guy who made the documentary was the hungry editorialising journalist type, just an archeology fanatic like i said (who was it must be said investigating archeology sites in war torn areas, previously he had also been to the statues destroyed by the Taliban.)

anyway...enough. Ive made my views plain.

[Guest]

Ah, yes, coming from the same person that swore that Blair & co would not lie about WMDs.

Don't feel bad about it, the world needs gullible people like you. Just don't expect me to take your comments seriously when your source is the BBC, the propaganda outlet of one of the occupying powers. Why don't you just post something from the FOX network.

[Major Gripe 0]

Ah yes the BBC, Blair Broadcasting Corporation! However is this the same BBC that showed the programme the claimed the raid to 'save' Pvt Lynch was staged? Not exactly in step with allied propaganda then was it!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

"coming from the same person that swore that Blair & co would not lie about WMDs."

I dont think i did actually . Feel free to search back and prove me wrong but i never swear to anything if i can help it

I certainly thought it quite likely that small scale chemical or bio stuff would have been found by now. The UN S.C. , many western intelligence analysts and even Hans Blix was not willing to almost totally rule out the possibility of prohibited Iraqi WMD existing as you have been. Even Robin Cook admitted such things might be found and thats what i expected. Some small not too threatening chem/bio caches or similar

In addition you will recall i have maintained throughout that there is not and has never been a sufficient justification for the war.

Also related to the BBC (A-) even the Iraqi information ministry can or could be trusted to a limited extent ....as far as direct video evidence goes (eg US POWS, evidence of downed Apache etc)

I SAW these rooms full of TERRIBLY stored artifacts that the museum women admitted on camera was how they had stored things.

"If i stole this how would you know" asked the US officer

"are there records?"

Silence from the musuem employee then... "No"

etc etc . I SAW IT just as you likely saw the US Apache on feed from Iraqi state TV.

(B-) I wish you would stop so often posting so many links to this terrible British state propaganda!

Mr. 'Baghdad will be hell', 'national popular uprising'

You really want to play that game?

[Guest]

(B-) I wish you would stop so often posting so many links to this terrible British state propaganda!

I'm posting it for your benifit. If they admit wrongdoing then it's probably true. If they are covering their asses contradicting well documented facts, then it's probably not.

It's the same reason why I post links from FOXnews.

It's because you (and others having your position) trust them, not me.

Quote[/b] ]Mr. 'Baghdad will be hell', 'national popular uprising'

You really want to play that game?

The difference between you and me is that I do not claim to be objective. You do, and you're not. Not surprisingly you are "loyal" to your country and the only time you say anything negative about the war or the effects of the war, you do it by sticking it to your American allies. BBC operates in a very similar fashion.

You may decieve yourself as much as you want - it won't change the fact that Britain has blood on its hands through this illegal and unjust war that your democratically elected leaders willingly and knowingly helped start.

Edit: About the museum - Is it relevant who looted it. I don't care if it was Saddam, Blair, the employees, US troops or goddamn Mickey Mouse. The fact was that the museum should have been protected by the occupying force against looters which it wasn't. The same for hospitals, banks etc. They've still not stopped the looting and it's been over two months now!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

-

(

[Die Alive 0]

What has 500 legs and lies underground? 250 recently executed prisoners in Iraq

-=Die Alive=-

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]It's because you (and others having your position) trust them, not me.

I trust the BBC? Well if you say it so then it must be so.

All i say is i am more convinced by the version of events presented by the mentioned documentary with a growing body of evidence to support it than the version widely parroted by the media you are so perceptively wary of.

Quote[/b] ]The difference between you and me is that I do not claim to be objective. You do, and you're not. Not surprisingly you are "loyal" to your country and the only time you say anything negative about the war or the effects of the war, you do it by sticking it to your American allies. BBC operates in a very similar fashion.

I have NEVER to my patchy memory claimed to be objective here or anywhere else in the past few years for that matter. Feel free to search for examples. The difference you might be searching for between you and i is that i attempt and strive to reach a somewhat objective viewpoint at least on -some- occasions and you to a large extent do not. But i have no problem with you expressing your modern european views with your viking fury

So i am not unopinionated and i hope never would make such a ludicrous claim. . I try thats all. Try not to present opinion as fact ,i try to go at least some way towards seperating subjective judgments from relatively unbiased observation of fact. I dont claim to avoid posting either here. What is happening here? A moderator berating a forum member for attempting to be objective? Sorry if that has annoyed you.

As to me never criticizing the British and i find this actually slightly offensive "sticking it" to my "american allies" im quite sure with some searching i could disprove this but i dont think such a well thought out response is worth attempting here.

Strange in fact how you yourself become so defensive (or offensive)on certain issues e.g. the EU, or accusations of US failures. Certainly not due to -loyalty- to your modern european world view thats for sure.

Quote[/b] ]"You may decieve yourself as much as you want - it won't change the fact that Britain has blood on its hands through this illegal and unjust war that your democratically elected leaders willingly and knowingly helped start."

I dont see how this is relevant. Are you saying that the widely held view that the war is unjust and Britain has blood on its hands makes it more likely or has any bearing on the charge that the museum was neglected and not guarded properly?

So because from your perspective your fight against American and British injustice is itself just ,anyone who disputes the facts of particular events and decides in relation to those particular events that the belligerent parties who cause you such upset might be absolved of guilt in those certain particulars must be deluding themselves?

Let me make it clear anyway. I have never said i was favour or am in favour of the war with Iraq. Got that?

I think it is important and relevant if it is discovered that there was a significant Iraqi military presence based at the museum (as denied by the museum staff). I think it is relevant if it discovered that museum staff are linked to the Baath party (what officials in Iraq arent?). I think it is relelvant that almost all the artefacts were not after all looted as the staff or at least the world media first suggested but instead stored very badly and in a terrible state in closed vaults and hidden areas by those same staff.

If one werent as gullible and trusting as i am one might even begin to harbour thoughts that the whole thing was part of a ploy by certain Baathists to ,in all the chaos of the war and the badly organised museum, make off with valuable artifacts and then use the museum staff to blame it all on American negligence. Sort of smashing two urns with one stone so to speak.

[Schoeler 0]

Ah, yes, coming from the same person that swore that Blair & co would not lie about WMDs.

Don't feel bad about it, the world needs gullible people like you. Just don't expect me to take your comments seriously when your source is the BBC, the propaganda outlet of one of the occupying powers. Why don't you just post something from the FOX network.  

I find this a rather intriguing statement coming from someone who practically swore that Bush and Blair would plant WMD in order to justify the war. Strange that that hasn't happened yet.