The Iraq Thread

[Pukko 0]

Hello again

Was probably a month since I last posted here, and I would just like to 'whine' a little again.

When I enter this thread I once again feel this energy drain, as if the rethorics surrounding the current US foregin policies was a black hole. In this forum I first experienced it when the war on terror broke out on October 7 2001 in Afganistan (many of my post are from (9/11 to 10/7 2001) - I could not read or participate in the discussions anymore for some months. Since then I participated/read the discussions in periods, and got a real enery/hope boost around 15:th of January this year when Germany, France and Russia voiced their opposition. But from the start of the Iraqi Freedom war, and especially after 4/9 2003, it seems darker than ever. I get so depressed when 'knowing' how hopeless the situation (TBA:s forigin policies) is, and that there are no arguments/rethorics in the world that affects a 'knight in shiny armour with good selfconfidence' - that I rather avoid being exposed of it too much...

Maybe there will be som hope again soon though, lets hope

for the record, I mostly try to avoid digging myself too deep into details, but rather post more abstract, conclusive stuff (partly to clear my mind, and also because I personally feel its more creative), so I'll most certainly be back around here in this wonderful community, hopefully without reason to whine more though...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ 09 May 2003,14<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What TBA are actually doing is a classic. If you want to pull something off, do it in broad daylight in plain view of the public and most people expect it to be legite. Otherwise you wouldnt be doing it in public.

Thats how many succesful robberies and break-ins have been carried out.

So just because its obvious doesnt mean its OK.<span id='postcolor'>

Its very likely in big parts so. Part of it is also the fashinating (and scary) phenomenon that I have noticed, that there only takes a few symbolic things to make it all look like its 'purely on the good side'. One concrete (but maybe poor) example is for example the Israel/Palestine conflict, where the discourse surrounding  modern tanks etc. in Israeli raids makes it easy to think 'well, they are using modern hightech equipment - they have to be the good'.

Another side of TBA unashamed approach may be that they are also pushing the limits, to see how far they can go. Unfortionally, I recon they can go just as far as they want in any direction at present - they got all opposition 'eliminated' or in a terror grip.

btw, you Americans! Does mainstream US media at all report of the more and more destabilized situation in Afganistan?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ 09 May 2003,18:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw, you Americans! Does mainstream US media at all report of the more and more destabilized situation in Afganistan?<span id='postcolor'>

Not really. All we hear is that things are slowly getting better.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ 09 May 2003,18:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pukko @ 09 May 2003,18:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw, you Americans! Does mainstream US media at all report of the more and more destabilized situation in Afganistan?<span id='postcolor'>

Not really. All we hear is that things are slowly getting better.<span id='postcolor'>

Thanks!

Its not really reported here in Sweden either to any larger extent, or rather not at all in SVT:s (state television) tv news - which I 'monitor' when I can - anyway, even if more and more articles about it are around at their website (I have started using it as my primary news source; mostly because it gives a quick and easy overview of news, and it probably is also decently unbiased):

http://svt.se/svt/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=1805

Lately there has been some general (that I also have heared around here in the forum at times) articles about it there, and yesterday for example there was an article about UN mineclearers cancelling their efforts until further.

So, I dont exactly have first hand information about it , but it undoubtly seems like the tides are turning, or maybe its just a matter of perspective (that only Kabul is at least decently safe, and much of the rest is warlord-chaos), maybe things really do are getting to the better, even if I doubt it. Maybe its balancing and has just begin to fall in one direction...

I just wanted to know if the current problems are taken up at all in US media.

How about mainstream media in the rest of the world? anyone?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course not. And since there are only French and American companies in the whole world its a limited choice. We understand FS, it wasnt an easy call.<span id='postcolor'>

Well the best company was a US one, the second best was a French one. Why should we keep lowering the standards for Iraq to keep you guys at bay?

[Jinef 2]

Ahhh, i read this thread and i become more racist by the minute.

Pro American action in Iraq people - Iraq is being exploited, if you cannot see that then you are very stupid.

If we look at history and say something along the lines of president Andrew Jackson tried to liberate the Cherokee native Americans (why can't we say indians any more? )

and help them would we believe them? Maybe Americans were smarter then because they were more closely related to the bunch of misfits that left Europe in the first place.

Everyone else who is relentlessly arguing and just making me bored - The best way to convince these people (usually Americans) about something is face to face, in their own country where they feel strong and supported, and just undermine slowly their mindless little values. On the internet they can just keep dragging up heaploads of shit and are masters of being arrogant and ignorant and lot's of other things that are associated with them.

(serious stereotyping and bigotry coming up)

Anyway, we were taking the piss out of the Texans the other day. We were on the theme of how to lose a guy in ten days (somebody's girlfriend had made him see the chickflick ), so we did How to make a Texan shoot you in under a minute.

Here's what we came up with

- Pickups are just tacky

- What the hell are you wearing! Dead cow is so 1800s!

- The family tree - one big stump

- if you had your grandfather's baby would that make your son your uncle or dad?

- Christianity is crap compared to Rastafarianism and causes far too many dead people (KKK) etc.

- Who want's to be a millionaire - Texas. Okay Q1, what colour is an orange? A: Ummm, well, hey Ma! Get off the roof! I'm sorry, can you repeat the question again?

Btw, no offense, this is just the product of a few lonely and quite fucked up guys and gals who are sick of hearing anti French jokes and people yelling the obvious (America is the source of all evil etc.). We thought we might just try and add an interval of jovial humour!

[PitViper 0]

ooohh.. I've got lots of English and European jokes...

[Die Alive 0]

I got Iraqi jokes.

-=Dhimo Nolol=- ("Die Alive" in Somali)

[PitViper 0]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,5944-674165,00.html

[EBass 0]

oooooh lets hear these UK jokes, plus lets count on the fingers how many DONT involve the words tea, vicar, cricket,

scones

Plus we have better songs. And you ripped my country tis off thee off us. DA DA DA DA DA DA RULE BRITANIA!!! DA DA DA DA! BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES!!!! DA DA DA DA DA DA DA BRITONS NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! WILL BE SLAVES!!!

[PitViper 0]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/3002047.stm

Galloway egged.

heh.. what a buffoon.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (You_looking_at_me? @ 09 May 2003,16:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Plus we have better songs. And you ripped my country tis off thee off us. DA DA DA DA DA DA RULE BRITANIA!!! DA DA DA DA! BRITANIA RULES THE WAVES!!!! DA DA DA DA DA DA DA BRITONS NEVER! NEVER! NEVER! WILL BE SLAVES!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Forgot to take your meds this morning?

[PitViper 0]

http://weeklystandard.com/Content....qei.asp

bad reporting in Iraq says embedded reporter.

[PitViper 0]

hh. I guess ole Ritter was on Saddam's payroll.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987658018.html

[Jinef 2]

Okay can someone explain what's happening with this galloway chap? What did he do? I prefer oral myself (explanations).

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Ah, c'mon Jinef, couldn't you guys think of anything funnier? Those are so obvious, and half of them fit Arkansas better than Texas anyhow.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ 10 May 2003,02:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ah, c'mon Jinef, couldn't you guys think of anything funnier? Those are so obvious, and half of them fit Arkansas better than Texas anyhow.  

<span id='postcolor'>

Must be from never having been here....I mean geez....didn't even mention Big Hair!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 09 May 2003,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hh. I guess ole Ritter was on Saddam's payroll.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987658018.html<span id='postcolor'>

Did we read the same article? The last line says that he was offered a gift, refused, and reported it to the necesary authorities.

That sure sounds like he was on Saddam's payroll all right.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ 09 May 2003,21:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 09 May 2003,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hh. I guess ole Ritter was on Saddam's payroll.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987658018.html<span id='postcolor'>

Did we read the same article? The last line says that he was offered a gift, refused, and reported it to the necesary authorities.  

That sure sounds like he was on Saddam's payroll all right.  <span id='postcolor'>

There has been much talk about Iraqi intelligence, Ritter and a possible intermediary. What is he doing with such connections? Frankly, I couldn't care if he denied a particular gold bracelet for his wife. Thats not the key point.

[Jinef 2]

True, i never have been there, i don't think i could stand up to the heat anyway. It was all just based around the cliches.

But i would love to hear your Welsh jokes, Baeh!

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 10 May 2003,08:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ 09 May 2003,21:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ 09 May 2003,22:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hh. I guess ole Ritter was on Saddam's payroll.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/05/1051987658018.html<span id='postcolor'>

Did we read the same article? The last line says that he was offered a gift, refused, and reported it to the necesary authorities.  

That sure sounds like he was on Saddam's payroll all right.  <span id='postcolor'>

There has been much talk about Iraqi intelligence, Ritter and a possible intermediary. What is he doing with such connections? Frankly, I couldn't care if he denied a particular gold bracelet for his wife. Thats not the key point.<span id='postcolor'>

PitViper, how do you feel about VP Dick Cheney spending 5 years as CEO of Halliburton?  Do you think there might be some connection between that and Halliburton having received two huge Iraqi oil services contracts without any competitive bidding?

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">without any competitive bidding? <span id='postcolor'>

..and against the will of the Iraqi people that enjoy their massive freedom right now

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

PitViper- First, im glad you injected some topical material into this thread (seemed to be going downhill)

but that  weekly standard article, whilst interesting as an alternative viewpoint is a little on the silly side. It refutes many of the (supposed) claims made by the major news agencies whilst offering scant amounts of actual new evidence. One of its main contentions seems to be that  news agencies are now reporting much more bad news than good news! What has the world come to!

------------------------------------------------------

I dont think the Bush administration are either dumb or evil (the term evil is too loose and vague yet also too extreme)

.They are wrong (At least i -think- so increasingly).

Bush may be dumb, the administration is not.

There is no evil plot/hidden conspiracy , there are a set of policies strongly influenced by a Project.

The Project for a New American Century.

This seems to be the prime source of many of the post spt.11 Bush administration foreign and defense policies. It also seems to be the ideological and intellectual foundation of the 'Bush Doctrine'.

Its not hidden, everyone can read about it.

Evil? Judge for yourself.

I would call it ill-conceived and dangerous.

Then again, it might just work out as the neo-conservatives hope. The Middle east might become more stable, peaceful and prosperous with a democratic and 'free' Iraq in place.

.....Possibly?

But Iraq isnt looking especially prosperous right now and how long might it be until it does?

Also even if it does go well im not particularly comfortable or happy with the underlying aims of the 'project'. In many ways it seems to be all about preserving the status quo or an idealised version of the status quo for America in as much as is possible by eliminating threats to 'stability' and 'order'. By cementing 'what is' in terms of current American power,influence or conditions favourable to America TBA may be blocking off 'what could be' for the future both bad and good.

At the start of his presidency President Bush talked of America as a humble nation. Now it is every other nation that must be humble.

I hope there are sane and moderate people in positions of power in the Administration to dilute some of the more extreme neo-conservative ideas in the future. Unfortunatly im far from sure there are.

[FallenPaladin 0]

Good post, IsthatyouJohnWayne, very good thoughts.

[Warin 0]

I dont think there is anything inherently 'evil' in TBA planning.

Just amazingly short sighted, and totally ignoring the possibilities for 'blowback'. It's this lack of foresight that brought about guys like Osama Bin Ladin. How many new terrorists will this current administration spawn?

[Jinef 2]

Enough to keep us going for another 15 years or so.

Hopefully i will have quit this job and be in a nice tropical location with fit girls all around me.