The Iraq Thread

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm.....can you find a link to prove what you just wrote Tex?

The only thing I can find about the sentiments of the citisens of Basra is this (and it does in no way prove your statement) <span id='postcolor'>

http://www.dn.se/DNet....rType=6

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Republic or Empire?

I would like to gently steer this conversation if i may back to (as some may recall) brgnorways original post about US 'democratic imperialism' and the 'neoconservative' hawks who now appear to have such a hold over the governence of the US foreign policy. I have been reading around a little. One thing i didnt previously know is that many of the leading neoconservatives are ex democrats.Liberal globalists with strong interventionist tendancies who now occupy the new nebulous right of america.

Here is one prescient article to get people started.

written in Dec. 2001 and making mention of Tex's main man Senator John McCain

*- http://www.antiwar.com/mcconnell/pf/p-mc121101.html

This neo-conservatism seems to me to be a strange blend of realpolitik and blind idealism.In contrast (as an opposite roughly speaking) is the increasing neo-liberalism of Europe with its strange blend of blind idealism and realpolitik.

http://www.etherzone.com/2002/raim040102.shtml

/\a scathing attack on neoconservatism. I disagree with quite a lot on this site but i nonetheless think some important issues are raised about the new right of america and their relentless and to many inexplicable drive for war.

It is edited by Justin Raimondo who is not an unbiased source and Avon could probably bring up a hundred negative articles against but nonetheless i think there are plenty of valid questions raised if not answers provided...

My intention here is to bring up the possible underlying motives of various parties and power blocs that are at work in the current unstable international situation.

Is there any hope of the EU and america becoming more united or are the fractures permanent? Will America make war on much of the muslim world as is feared by some(not least muslims)? Are the american public (or could they be) sufficiently convinced of the 'rightness' of a potential rolling series of 'wars for peace' course of action post 9-11? Can,should or will any other world power 'stop' america?

Is it not true that a lot more than first appears lies on the outcome of the war being waged in Iraq?

ie the possible outcome of the global order for the next 50-100 years

[Guest]

Now this is really a fucking surprise....not.

The bodies of the dead are not even cold yet for crying out loud.

[Longinius 1]

"US engineering firm Kellogg Brown & Root - part of Halliburton, the company once headed by US vice-president Dick Cheney - earlier picked up a contract to put out oil well fires and repair oil facilities."

haha, ITS NOT ABOUT OIL!!!

This is so sad :/

[Die Alive 0]

You're right, they should of got fire fighting monkeys to put out those fires. As well as construction monkeys to rebuild the oil facilities.

Bah, all this monkey business makes me want to eat bananas and to pick fleas off of my co-workers.

-=Die Alive=-

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

I am back rippin' roarin' and ready to rock n' roll.

Grab yourself a beverage, a chair and sit down cause I'm a lettin' the shite hit the fan.

This is, to use John Milton Hay's own words, a "splendid little war." Bush is like da Theodore Roosevelt tryin' to liberate Cuba from da evil Spainish. Did za I spell that wrong? yep that's a good reason cause' old Cuba was never annexed into the US. Say isn't there a Soviet general a named Cuba in OPF? Can't seem to find the old bloke in my mission editor but Iza knows hees ther. and looky at what happend in Cuba? They got their independence. Say, do they hav piranhas (dem fish with da big teeth dat can eat whole horse) down there? Well, let me tell ya, sometime after dat, we have this grizzly adams feller named Castro to cum and set up shop there. He wears da olive green uniform dat looks like somethin a pest control contractor would wear. Maybe cAstro does spray for termites down there but he mostly plays on his computer. he aint got your typical computer. Nope, old Castro who is as old as old as Methuselah has a computer with 4 keys: command, control, delete, and execute. Yep, what we need ta do is learn a lessin from the 1898 war. We need to annex Iraq so dat we don't hav another despot cum to powr like what happened in Cuber.

nuff said

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Mar. 24 2003,21:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The U.N. doesn't make things legal. The U.S. and NATO went into Kosovo without a U.N. security counsel resolution, so I guess we should charge Clinton with war crimes, right?

I sort of wish that the U.S.S.R. was still in power, they kept the "third world" in line without giving a shit about bad press, do you think Osama bin Laden would still be wasting air if the KGB wasn't writing traffic tickets?

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

yep. No one has yet to explain how this is any different than the U.S in Bosnia, or say France in Africa.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

The UN is worthless and ineffective. It is nothing more than a bureaucratic, red-taped, discussion "round table" and a pseudo-political "symposium." They get "together" and pretend to solve the world's "problems." In reality, they do nothing. Why do some countries have clout (veto power) and others do not? Makes no sense folks. They behave like it is a city council meeting.

[-iCeMaN- 0]

this wars crazy and pointless, there is no need for it. And Bush is also a crazy little maniac that rigged the election , it's starting to get annoying. Everytime I turn on the TV it's about Iraq. I don't really give a sh!t anymore. "3 more POWs were taken by the Iraqis today" "The Americans have taken in at least 8000 POWs" "A Patriot went of-coarse yester-bla bla bla I dont care so shut up and put some other freaking news.

-

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (|iCeMaN| @ Mar. 25 2003,16:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">this wars crazy and pointless, there is no need for it.<span id='postcolor'>

personal opinion. Most Americans felt that way during WW2.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Bush is also a crazy little maniac that rigged the election  , it's starting to get annoying.<span id='postcolor'>

He won it exactly according to the election law.  What's the problem?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Everytime I turn on the TV it's about Iraq.  I don't really give a sh!t anymore.<span id='postcolor'>

I have to agree there.  I hate the media bonanza BS.  I don't want 24 hr a day war on the boobtube.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Americans have taken in at least 8000 POWs<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, we do not have that many. It is just below 4,000 at the present.

At least Bush backed up his threat. It won't be long before Sodomize Hussein goes up the spout if he is not already dead from the first attack.

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 25 2003,22:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">5--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Mar. 24 2003,215)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The U.N. doesn't make things legal. The U.S. and NATO went into Kosovo without a U.N. security counsel resolution, so I guess we should charge Clinton with war crimes, right?

I sort of wish that the U.S.S.R. was still in power, they kept the "third world" in line without giving a shit about bad press, do you think Osama bin Laden would still be wasting air if the KGB wasn't writing traffic tickets?

Tyler<span id='postcolor'>

yep. No one has yet to explain how this is any different than the U.S in Bosnia, or say France in Africa.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, Denoir has illustrated the difference very well a number of times in this thread.

----------

MrLongNameOceans - do you suggest we disband the UN and have the US dictate world policy? Hmm, I guess you would. Well, if the US can dictate world policy under the "might makes right" policy, then it's open season on the US, isn't it. If the US has the right to enforce it's will on the rest of the world, then surely the rest of the world has the right to fight back using any means at their disposal.

[OxPecker 0]

Just found this pic, interesting

[Die Alive 0]

I didn't have to see that blood there in that pic. Now I can't sleep.  Guess I got to DL some pron to get my mind on other "things" lol.

BTW, who are these "Gamers against war" Are they Sims players?

-=Die Alive=-

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Mar. 26 2003,01:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't have to see that blood there in that pic. Now I can't sleep.  Guess I got to DL some pron to get my mind on other "things" lol.

BTW, who are these "Gamers against war"  Are they Sims players?

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

Oops, maybe I broke the graphic pic board rule. If so, could some kind mod let me know.

(It wasn't posted for gratuitous reasons, I thought the pic made a very salient point).

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Mar. 25 2003,21:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am back rippin' roarin' and ready to rock n' roll.

Grab yourself a beverage, a chair and sit down cause I'm a lettin' the shite hit the fan.

This is, to use John Milton Hay's own words, a "splendid little war." Bush is like da Theodore Roosevelt tryin' to liberate Cuba from da evil Spainish. Did za I spell that wrong? yep that's a good reason cause' old Cuba was never annexed into the US. Say isn't there a Soviet general a named Cuba in OPF? Can't seem to find the old bloke in my mission editor but Iza knows hees ther. and looky at what happend in Cuba? They got their independence. Say, do they hav piranhas (dem fish with da big teeth dat can eat whole horse) down there? Well, let me tell ya, sometime after dat, we have this grizzly adams feller named Castro to cum and set up shop there. He wears da olive green uniform dat looks like somethin a pest control contractor would wear. Maybe cAstro does spray for termites down there but he mostly plays on his computer. he aint got your typical computer. Nope, old Castro who is as old as old as Methuselah has a computer with 4 keys: command, control, delete, and execute. Yep, what we need ta do is learn a lessin from the 1898 war. We need to annex Iraq so dat we don't hav another despot cum to powr like what happened in Cuber.

nuff said<span id='postcolor'>

If you want to bring Cuba into this, get your facts straight, because you've got them 90% wrong. I'm not goint to retype them all, so if you want to know what I mean, start reading this thread from a couple of hundred pages back.

[Badgerboy 0]

You fool! You have angered Tovarish, and his might knows no bounds! (Plus he's pissed off having to repeat the same points/arguments over and over again)

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ Mar. 26 2003,02:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You fool! You have angered Tovarish, and his might knows no bounds! (Plus he's pissed off having to repeat the same points/arguments over and over again)<span id='postcolor'>

lol I gotta say that was some weird feeling of deja-vu

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Mar. 26 2003,02:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to bring Cuba into this, get your facts straight, because you've got them 90% wrong. I'm not goint to retype them all, so if you want to know what I mean, start reading this thread from a couple of hundred pages back.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, he already got his facts about Australia's involvement arse up a few pages back. Apparently his knowledge stops at the borders of the mighty USA. I get the feeling everything he knows about world politics was learned from watching Chuck Norris movies.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I get the feeling everything he knows about world politics was learned from watching Chuck Norris movies.

<span id='postcolor'>

Christ, it all makes sense now!

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 25 2003,19:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

Finally someone is back on topic!  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is there any hope of the EU and america becoming more united or are the fractures permanent? <span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry to say that there is a great danger of the last option in your sentence. I cannot see how this conflict is going to end in a reconciliation of the feelings between many of the former allies of Nato. There is no doubt a great danger that Nato itself will change as a result of this. Incidently, Nato will be divided between those who are willing to accept US authoroty in most international matters that require a possible use of force - and the rest of the countries that will not accept this order. In short, the end result will be a devided Europe which will aspire to balance out US as an economic and military counterweight. This effort is bound to fail though due to rivalry between the european contries. I do suspect that France and Germany will cooperate well, but that is not only a fear of Britain which would find itself on the sideline, but also many of the lesser nations within europe will lose their significanse in EU's decisionmaking process.

However, this could all change if the outcome of the iraqi conflict is considered as bad (in Europe), and especially so if the conflict spreads to neighbouring middle eastern nations - or if US appears to have an agenda for the whole region.

A second point to consider is that US has pushed hard to enlarge Nato and include what Rumsfeldt would call the "new Europe" . This has more to do with meddling with european integration than it has to do with militarian aspects. By doing so US has largely succeded in halting the dream of a unified strong European Union - a europe that could be a serious competitor to US in most fields of interest.

Again, the testing stone is the future development in the middle east.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Will America make war on much of the muslim world as is  feared by some(not least muslims)? <span id='postcolor'>

From a neoconservative view it would be foolish to stop if the outcome of the iraqi war is judged as "good" . I strongly believe that those people - in their own naive way - believe they would end hostile resentment towards US. This would also provide US with a geopolitical importance of enormous importance.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are the american public (or could they be) sufficiently convinced of the 'rightness' of a potential rolling series of 'wars for peace' course of action post 9-11? Can,should or will any other world power 'stop' america?

<span id='postcolor'>

Again, the outcome of the war in Iraq will be decisive. However, it is unlikely that the people of america would support such an action(s) . The cost of dead soldiers and an enourmous economical burden by doing this would rule out future wars.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is it not true that a lot more than first appears lies on the outcome of the war being waged in Iraq?

<span id='postcolor'>

yes indeed!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ie the possible outcome of the global order for the next 50-100 years

<span id='postcolor'>

That could very well be!

[Guest]

LOL. The Onion is at it again:

US forms own UN

War on Iraq: Point-Counterpoint

Dead Iraqi would have loved democracy

Local Mom Whips Up Some Of Her Famous War Pie

Bush Bravely leads 3rd infantry into battle

And some briefs:

"U.S. Takes Out Key Iraqi Bases In Midnight Raid"

"New Bomb Capable Of Creating 1,500 New Terrorists In Single Blast"

"U.S. Draws Up Plan For Post-War Transitional Dictatorship In Iraq"

They are calling the war

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Operation Piss off the Planet</span>

[FallenPaladin 0]

Well, I didn`t wanted to participate in this thread any longer, but since my "political" posts in other threads are in the wrong place, I`m back.

What I love the Onion for this:

Point-Counterpoint: The War On Iraq

Read it and then read the Iraq thread. Similarities?  

[PFC Mongoose 0]

Man,

I will forever now have an image of Bush sitting in Camp David, talking to Gen. Franks over his Uber-expensive real-time telecommunications rig,

playing Missile Command

[FallenPaladin 0]

I also love the story of Bush leading the 3rd infantry. It`s as if Windtalkers and Forrest Gump Action Scenes are mixed together. *shivers*