The Iraq Thread

[KingBeast 0]

I dont know whether its just me going a little bit crazy, and I dont know if its entirely morally correct of me to say this, but I think im actually going to miss saddam. No, im not going to miss the fact that he is a murderous tyrant, but at least for me hes always been around since I was born. Jolly saddam, dodgy moustache, toothy smile and an old rifle in his hand. It just seems strange after all of this, even on the first day of the strikes, that this jolly man could perhaps appear on our TV screens no more.

Will there be a flood of documentaries on Saddam once Iraq has been occupied and we start finding out about the things he did in secret? If it can happen to Hitler and Stalin on the history channel, why not Saddam?

I can see it now, deep voiced American presenter, cheesy music and short fast clips of Saddam himself and various archive footage of the two gulf wars.

Albert - I hadnt heard about that radio incident, though it is rather worrying, especially considering that the Americans want to help the Iraqi civilians and make things good for them(or at least that is what is implied) So whats worse, good intentions that are ultimately wrong, or just bad intentions?

[Renagade 0]

yeah good ole uncle saddam before he fell out with the bush lot

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Mar. 23 2003,01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont know whether its just me going a little bit crazy, and I dont know if its entirely morally correct of me to say this, but I think im actually going to miss saddam. No, im not going to miss the fact that he is a murderous tyrant, but at least for me hes always been around since I was born. Jolly saddam, dodgy moustache, toothy smile and an old rifle in his hand. It just seems strange after all of this, even on the first day of the strikes, that this jolly man could perhaps appear on our TV screens no more.<span id='postcolor'>

And this is an good example of how easy it is to grow found of a conflict I belive. I use to argue that one of the hardest things with the Israel/Palestine conflict is that that conflict is so important in it self that (whoa, how can one put in 4 thats's that close? <!--emo& ) the mideast people may fear for what would be there instead, once the enemy is 'gone' - "whats gonna keep us together then?". Similar thinking is also important when considering US political culture I believe.

Political culture is also a decent concept when discussing 'US political agenda between governments'. The Carter administration was probably quite different than the current Bush administration indeed (honestly, I dont know much about Carter though), but in what is the differance to be found?

I think that TBA very well proves that US 'political culture' is not static, since some radical changes (for the worse) have been **noticed** (lol) by most of the world. Check the 'arrogant empire' thread around here for a good article about it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Albert - I hadnt heard about that radio incident, though it is rather worrying, especially considering that the Americans want to help the Iraqi civilians and make things good for them(or at least that is what is implied) So whats worse, good intentions that are ultimately wrong, or just bad intentions?<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds like classical colonisation problems - aka 'Euro centrism' (yes, USA is also an offer of Euro centrism). Since I partly hopes that US foregin policies are gonna 'eat some shit' from this and coming conflicts (to force a policy cahnge), I'm actually with quite good hope at the moment - since many, many things that has happened in the last year shows that TBA do not think very far - or indeed at all in some cases. So its still quite likely that it will harm itself more than the "big world, outside Washington where I live".

And the funniest thing I have heard tonight:

A Danish woman's saying about the Danish primeminister Rasmusen today (after Denmark has decided to send 1 submarine, 1 frigate + 150 soldiers to Iraq):

"The primeminister is very flattered by recieving phonecalls from the president of the United states" - said in broad Danish which makes it sound hilarious to a Swede at least

[E6Hotel 0]

A couple of things to consider.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 22 2003,22:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thirdly, I must emphasise that the plans for Iraq cannot be compared to the Marshall plans since Germany was a country with a democratic tradition and eager to reimplement it after the war. Iraq has no such tradition and therefore implementing democracy in Iraq  would be like telling an elephant to wear high-heels.<span id='postcolor'>

That's true.  However, it must be pointed out that Japan had no democratic tradition, either, but turned out well.  Like Iraq, they had an educated population and resources.  I'm not saying that Iraq and Japan are comparable -- Japan, for example, didn't have three separate ethnic groups constantly trying to kill each other.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 22 2003,22:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thirdly, the US (in contrast to the UK, France and Spain) has no experience in the area of governing colony-like states.<span id='postcolor'>

The problem here is the assumption that we'd try to "colonize" Iraq.  As the two examples above illustrate, there's no historical basis to support that claim.

Semper Fi

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Mar. 23 2003,01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

LOL. So many great pictures to put as wallpaper, but currently the big-ass Iraqi map takes precedence

[theavonlady 2]

Reuters reports that the Pentagon has confirmed that US troops have attacked terrorist forces associated with Al Queda in Northern Iraq.

The AQ guys must have made a wrong turn. There aren't supposed to be any in Iraq.

[FSPilot 0]

do you have a link?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,06:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reuters reports that the Pentagon has confirmed that US troops have attacked terrorist forces associated with Al Queda in Northern Iraq.

The AQ guys must have made a wrong turn. There aren't supposed to be any in Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

They're attacking the Islamist group Ansar-Al-Islam. I do not however know if they have links to AQ

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Mar. 23 2003,08:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">do you have a link?<span id='postcolor'>

It's Israel's Ha'aretz newspaper's wire headlines in Hebrew.

The one's in English are here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/ShTickers.html

They do not have the source news service listed, whereas the ones in Hebrew do (in Hebrew):

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/objects/pages/ShowAllTickers.jhtml

On a separate issue, not sure whether this pic is a political statement or not, so don't ban me Denoir if it isn't.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,06:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reuters reports that the Pentagon has confirmed that US troops have attacked terrorist forces associated with Al Queda in Northern Iraq.

The AQ guys must have made a wrong turn. There aren't supposed to be any in Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Ansar al-Islam has been claimed by the bush administration to be connected to Al Qaeda, but this claim has been rejected.

The important point is that US has allied themselves with one of the rivaling secular kurd factions which has been fighting Ansar al-Islam the last years.

So it makes sense that US are bombing Ansar al-Islam from a "coalition-view" .

A more unfortunate result of this is that it can cause further tension in the muslim world because Ansar al-Islam is the only fundamentalist kurd group of significanse. There are a few people out there whom might see this as an attack or a crusade against muslims.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 23 2003,10:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ansar al-Islam has been claimed by the bush administration to be connected to Al Qaeda, but this claim has been rejected.<span id='postcolor'>

By whom?

[Guest]

By all the Kurd factions and very vigorously. The Guardian did a report on it a while ago when they visited the base that Powell claimed was used by AQ. There was nothing there, it had been abandoned for years and a non-fundamentalist faction of the Kurds were holding that general area.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By whom?<span id='postcolor'>

Him.  

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,09:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 23 2003,10:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ansar al-Islam has been claimed by the bush administration to be connected to Al Qaeda, but this claim has been rejected.<span id='postcolor'>

By whom?<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Intelligence officials have discounted — if not dismissed — other information believed to point to possible links between Iraq and Al Qaeda.

The CIA said it can find no evidence supporting post-Sept. 11 reports that Mohamed Atta, one of the hijackers in the attacks, met with an Iraqi agent in the Czech capital, Prague, in 2001.

Similarly, intelligence officials described reports that Hussein is funding an Al Qaeda-connected extremist group in northern Iraq as "wildly overstated."

There is no evidence so far to confirm that Iraq is arming, financing or controlling the group, known as Ansar al-Islam, one official said. "There isn't a factual basis for such assertions," the official said.

<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.latimes.com/news....adlines

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is information that non-Kurdish fighters arrived in the region from Afghanistan following the U.S.-led war against the Taliban in 2001. Detainees have described camps where fighters are trained in basic infantry skills and suicide bombings for possible dispatch throughout the world. Allegations have been made that al-Qaeda operatives hosted by Ansar al-Islam are working to develop chemical weapons in the small area it controls – and if substantiated, this would be extremely serious.

However, ICG Middle East Program Director Robert Malley said: "This is a region outside Baghdad's control and we see no evidence that Ansar has a strategic alliance with Saddam Hussein. There is no question that the group has brought misery to many people in the area it controls, but it is highly unlikely that Ansar al-Islam is anything more than a minor irritant in local Kurdish politics".

ICG is not in a position to independently evaluate statements made by the U.S. Secretary of State on 5 February that a purported al-Qaeda operative, Abu Musab Zarqawi, established a "poison and explosive training centre camp" in the small area under Ansar's control. Nor can ICG evaluate whether the Iraqi regime "has an agent in the most senior level of" Ansar, as Secretary Powell stated. ICG's assessment is that links between al-Qaeda and Ansar are possible, but even PUK officials, who stand most to gain, deny that there is collusion between Ansar and Baghdad.

ICG Middle East Project Director Joost Hiltermann said:

"Profound ideological differences and a history of atrocities committed by the regime against the Kurds make a strong connection between Saddam Hussein and Ansar al-Islam extremely unlikely. If there is support from Baghdad, it is likely to be in the form of financial assistance, motivated by a desire to keep a finger in the pot, stir up trouble among the Kurds and keep the PUK on the defensive, rather than a strategic alliance with Ansar's cause. And it must be remembered that this is a small, isolated group who could muster some 700 fighters at most and who are no match for the PUK. Ansar al-Islam has been catapulted to a significance that does not appear warranted by the known facts".

<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=886

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 23 2003,10:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Intelligence officials have discounted ..............<span id='postcolor'>

Oh........................... "Intelligence officials" .................. I see.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The CIA said it can find no evidence supporting post-Sept. 11 reports that Mohamed Atta, one of the hijackers in the attacks, met with an Iraqi agent in the Czech capital, Prague, in 2001.<span id='postcolor'>

OK but irelevant to this particular group.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Similarly, intelligence officials<span id='postcolor'>

Oh........................... "Intelligence officials" .................. I see.

Yes, similarly.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">one official said. "There isn't a factual basis for such assertions," the official said.<span id='postcolor'>

Well before, there were "officials" in the plural. Maybe they couldn't agree between each other, these "officials"?

BTW, your LA Times link is bad.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Mar. 22 2003,16:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Secondly, germany has one of the strongest weapon export regulations and governmental supervision. The problem is only that germany has a great history of technological development in this area and therefore is the perfect soil for related smuggling.<span id='postcolor'>

I read a recent German article that the number of German companies who have sold illegal arms to Iraq in the last decade (up until last year! is at 109!

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

I dont see how you can trust the Ansar base as not being a training camp (or proscribed weapon testing area)

just because they INVITED the press to come -and the press didnt find anything-

isnt it just a tiny weeny little bit possible that even terrorist groups can move things around before the press arrive?

In fact i remember seeing on TV news and also reported in a paper that there was a poison sign on the fence around the outside of the base

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IsthatyouJohnWayne @ Mar. 23 2003,11:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont see how you can trust the Ansar base as not being a training camp (or proscribed weapon testing area)

just because they INVITED the press to come -and the press didnt find anything<span id='postcolor'>

I just reported this on the Dogs Of War thread:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reuters now reporting that an(other) Australian TV reporter was shot and killed by Ansar Al Islam terrorists in northern Iraq after filming their base.<span id='postcolor'>

I'd rather not be invited, thank you.

[theavonlady 2]

Here's another article on Ansar Al Islam from today's Jerusalem Post:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mar. 23, 2003

Iraqis make first use of suicide bombers in war

By MATTHEW GUTMAN

The first suicide bombers of the Iraq war struck Saturday, killing three in northern Iraq in what Israeli experts believe will be a long and bloody chain of similar attacks.

The Islamic Fundamentalist group responsible, the Ansar al-Islam, which is funded by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and has carved out a nook for itself in northern Iraq, last conducted a suicide bombing in mid-February.

An Australian journalist and four others were killed when a car bomb blew up near them at a road block near the town of Halabja.

According to Amatzia Baram, one of the world's foremost experts on the Iraqi regime, Saddam had "hired the services" of al-Qaida affiliated groups like Ansar to utilize suicide bombers to slow American advancement.

What makes elements like Ansar so very dangerous, he says, is that unlike Saddam's Ba'athist loyalists "which have been wooed by worldly pleasures: women, money, and power, not to mention fear, al-Qaida and Ansar are motivated by pure fanaticism."

Most are veterans of the various Afghani jihads, first against the Russians and later against the Americans. "But those who joined Osama bin Laden long ago gave up those things," he said.

If the US fails to act immediately to neutralize Ansar, said Baram, "we see many more such incidents." But according to reports the US already launched a campaign against Ansar on Friday, when it bombed one of the group's positions near Halabja.

Inside Iraq, "Saddam has nothing. There is not even one home-grown suicide bomber. That is why Saddam has utilized Islamic organizations," and fostered a relationship with al-Qaida, added Baram.

What Saddam does have is a maverick organization of al-Qaida agents operating in Baghdad itself, where they have an office.

"Their presence is not massive but it is definitely there. They will go underground when the war reaches them," he said. And they will be dangerous, he adds, not because of their number but "because they are made of different stuff than Saddam's men."

According to Baram, the frantic marching and chanting of volunteer suicide bombers from neighboring Arab countries is being used mainly as propaganda.

Col. (res.) Yoni Fighel of the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, who has tracked Ansar and other jihad sources for years, believes that Saddam has funded Ansar because through the group he can garner a huge yield from a minor investment.

"They don't have to be in the heart of Baghdad to harm or demoralize American forces. They can strike columns advancing from the north or the west." Or they can target roads, Western humanitarian services, or as was seen Saturday, Western journalists.

According to Fighel there is also a Palestinian angle. On Saturday Hamas political leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi published a posting in one of the myriad Islamic Jihad Internet sites calling on Iraqis to use suicide bombings against American forces.

Both the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas have for some time advocated the use of suicide against American forces, which Fighel believes heralds the internationalization of groups which have hitherto concentrated their attention solely on Israelis.

All in all, the Iraqis have adeptly "spun" the suicide phenomenon in their propaganda, using the media to sow unnecessary fear in the hearts of Americans, said Fighel.

The last major use of suiciders in the region was Iran's use of its own "martyrs" to clear minefields. Thousands of Irani boys died as they ran into Iraqi-sown minefields as human mine detectors. At the time the use of the "martyrs," who were told the fatal work would secure them a place in paradise, was mocked in Ba'athist Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

[MP Studio 0]

Hmm

But i think north korea is much more dangarous than iraq, isnt it?

Some information on iraq war: A US Soldier killed one of his own by throwing a grenade into an officers tent. 1 man dead, 13 injuried...

[MP Studio 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Mar. 23 2003,10:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I read a recent German article that the number of German companies who have sold illegal arms to Iraq in the last decade (up until last year! is at 109!<span id='postcolor'>

Thats right

It were mainly tanks and high tech parts for rockets...

[brgnorway 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,113)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the Ansar al-Islam, which is funded by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein <span id='postcolor'>

Says who?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to Amatzia Baram, one of the world's foremost experts on the Iraqi regime, Saddam had "hired the services" of al-Qaida affiliated groups like Ansar to utilize suicide bombers to slow American advancement. <span id='postcolor'>

Who is Amatzia Baram? What is his agenda? Anyway, I happen to trust ICG more than your fella.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What makes elements like Ansar so very dangerous, he says, is that unlike Saddam's Ba'athist loyalists "which have been wooed by worldly pleasures: women, money, and power, not to mention fear, al-Qaida and Ansar are motivated by pure fanaticism."<span id='postcolor'>

Fanaticism takes many forms - US war in Iraq comes close to my mind.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most are veterans of the various Afghani jihads, first against the Russians and later against the Americans. "But those who joined Osama bin Laden long ago gave up those things," he said. <span id='postcolor'>

A humerous fact is that Ansar al-Islam did not exist when the WTC was attacked.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the US fails to act immediately to neutralize Ansar, said Baram, "we see many more such incidents." But according to reports the US already launched a campaign against Ansar on Friday, when it bombed one of the group's positions near Halabja.<span id='postcolor'>

Expect to see it anyway - especially after US bombing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why Saddam has utilized Islamic organizations," and fostered a relationship with al-Qaida, added Baram. <span id='postcolor'>

Which I find disputable due to the fact that Saddam and Ansar al-Islam are fighting eachother.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What Saddam does have is a maverick organization of al-Qaida agents operating in Baghdad itself, where they have an office.

"Their presence is not massive but it is definitely there. They will go underground when the war reaches them," he said. And they will be dangerous, he adds, not because of their number but "because they are made of different stuff than Saddam's men."

According to Baram, the frantic marching and chanting of volunteer suicide bombers from neighboring Arab countries is being used mainly as propaganda.

Col. (res.) Yoni Fighel of the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, who has tracked Ansar and other jihad sources for years, believes that Saddam has funded Ansar because through the group he can garner a huge yield from a minor investment.

"They don't have to be in the heart of Baghdad to harm or demoralize American forces. They can strike columns advancing from the north or the west." Or they can target roads, Western humanitarian services, or as was seen Saturday, Western journalists.

According to Fighel there is also a Palestinian angle. On Saturday Hamas political leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi published a posting in one of the myriad Islamic Jihad Internet sites calling on Iraqis to use suicide bombings against American forces.

Both the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas have for some time advocated the use of suicide against American forces, which Fighel believes heralds the internationalization of groups which have hitherto concentrated their attention solely on Israelis.

All in all, the Iraqis have adeptly "spun" the suicide phenomenon in their propaganda, using the media to sow unnecessary fear in the hearts of Americans, said Fighel.

The last major use of suiciders in the region was Iran's use of its own "martyrs" to clear minefields. Thousands of Irani boys died as they ran into Iraqi-sown minefields as human mine detectors. At the time the use of the "martyrs," who were told the fatal work would secure them a place in paradise, was mocked in Ba'athist Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Pure speculation!

Of course, this has no significanse to you:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ICG's assessment is that links between al-Qaeda and Ansar are possible, but even PUK officials, who stand most to gain, deny that there is collusion between Ansar and Baghdad.

<span id='postcolor'>

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MP Studio @ Mar. 23 2003,13:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some information on iraq war: A US Soldier killed one of his own by throwing a grenade into an officers tent. 1 man dead, 13 injuried...<span id='postcolor'>

That news is hours old and mentioned already. A Moslem US soldier, possibly assisted by interpreters.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Mar. 23 2003,13:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,11<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the Ansar al-Islam, which is funded by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein <span id='postcolor'>

Says who?<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Probably Amatzia Baram.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Who is Amatzia Baram? What is his agenda?<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.kurdistan.sdu.dk/speakers.html?speaker=Baram#speaker

http://www.pewfellowships.org/seminars/fall2002/amatzia_baram.html

Just do a search for him on Google.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Anyway, I happen to trust ICG more than your fella.<span id='postcolor'>

Very objective conclusion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Fanaticism takes many forms - US war in Iraq comes close to my mind.<span id='postcolor'>

Your comment seems no less fanatical enough to me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most are veterans of the various Afghani jihads, first against the Russians and later against the Americans. "But those who joined Osama bin Laden long ago gave up those things," he said. <span id='postcolor'>

A humerous fact is that Ansar al-Islam did not exist when the WTC was attacked.<span id='postcolor'>

"Ansar al-Islam came together as a group in September 2001, initially under the name of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), but its constituent factions have existed for several years.

- Source: Human Rights Watch

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If the US fails to act immediately to neutralize Ansar, said Baram, "we see many more such incidents." But according to reports the US already launched a campaign against Ansar on Friday, when it bombed one of the group's positions near Halabja.<span id='postcolor'>

Expect to see it anyway - especially after US bombing.<span id='postcolor'>

Why? Because you'll always lose fighting against terror?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why Saddam has utilized Islamic organizations," and fostered a relationship with al-Qaida, added Baram. <span id='postcolor'>

Which I find disputable due to the fact that Saddam and Ansar al-Islam are fighting eachother.<span id='postcolor'>

Source?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What Saddam does have is a maverick organization of al-Qaida agents operating in Baghdad itself, where they have an office.

"Their presence is not massive but it is definitely there. They will go underground when the war reaches them," he said. And they will be dangerous, he adds, not because of their number but "because they are made of different stuff than Saddam's men."

According to Baram, the frantic marching and chanting of volunteer suicide bombers from neighboring Arab countries is being used mainly as propaganda.

Col. (res.) Yoni Fighel of the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, who has tracked Ansar and other jihad sources for years, believes that Saddam has funded Ansar because through the group he can garner a huge yield from a minor investment.

"They don't have to be in the heart of Baghdad to harm or demoralize American forces. They can strike columns advancing from the north or the west." Or they can target roads, Western humanitarian services, or as was seen Saturday, Western journalists.

According to Fighel there is also a Palestinian angle. On Saturday Hamas political leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi published a posting in one of the myriad Islamic Jihad Internet sites calling on Iraqis to use suicide bombings against American forces.

Both the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas have for some time advocated the use of suicide against American forces, which Fighel believes heralds the internationalization of groups which have hitherto concentrated their attention solely on Israelis.

All in all, the Iraqis have adeptly "spun" the suicide phenomenon in their propaganda, using the media to sow unnecessary fear in the hearts of Americans, said Fighel.

The last major use of suiciders in the region was Iran's use of its own "martyrs" to clear minefields. Thousands of Irani boys died as they ran into Iraqi-sown minefields as human mine detectors. At the time the use of the "martyrs," who were told the fatal work would secure them a place in paradise, was mocked in Ba'athist Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Pure speculation!<span id='postcolor'>

Whose? Baram? Fighel? Both? Other? You know otherwise?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 23 2003,12:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Probably Amatzia Baram.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, my point is that one who is born and raised in a kibbutz and a commanding officer in the reservist corps is likely a wee bit biased!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Professional positions. Dr. Baram is a Professor in the Department of the History of the Middle East, University of Haifa, Israel.

Personal & Education. Dr. Baram was born in 1938 in Kibbutz Kfar Menachem in Israel, raised and educated there. Upon ending his regular military service he returned to his kibbutz. As a reservist, Dr. Baram became acting tank battalion commander in the Yom Kippur War.

<span id='postcolor'>

----

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Very objective conclusion.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, it is actually! See for yourself:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP (ICG)

Board Members as at July 2002

 

Martti Ahtisaari, Chairman

Former President of Finland

Maria Livanos Cattaui, Vice-Chairman

Secretary-General, International Chamber of Commerce

Stephen Solarz, Vice-Chairman

For mer U.S. Congressman

Gareth Evans, President & CEO

Former Foreign Minister of Australia

S. Daniel Abraham

Chairman, Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation, U.S.

Morton Abramowitz

Former U.S. Assistant Secretary of State and Ambassador to Turkey

Kenneth Adelman

Former U.S. Ambassador and Director of the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency

Richard Allen

Former U.S. National Security Adviser to the President

Saud Nasir Al-Sabah

Former Kuwaiti Ambassador to the UK and U.S.; former

Minister of Information and Oil

Louise Arbour

Supreme Court Justice, Canada; Former Chief Prosecutor,

International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia

Oscar Arias Sanchez

Former President of Costa Rica; Nobel Peace Prize, 1987

Ersin Arioglu

Chairman, Yapi Merkezi Group, Turkey

Emma Bonino

Member of European Parliament; former European Commissioner

Zbigniew Brzezinski

Former U.S. National Security Adviser to the President

Cheryl Carolus

Former South African High Commissioner to the UK;

former Secretary General of the ANC

Victor Chu

Chairman, First Eastern Investment Group, Hong Kong

Wesley Clark

Former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, Europe

Uffe Ellemann-Jensen

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Denmark

Mark Eyskens

Former Prime Minister of Belgium

Marika Fahlen

Former Swedish Ambassador for Humanitarian Affairs;

Director of Social Mobilization and Strategic Information, UNAIDS

Yoichi Funabashi

Chief Diplomatic Correspondent & Columnist, The Asahi Shimbun, Japan

Bronislaw Geremek

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Poland

I.K.Gujral

Former Prime Minister of India

HRH El Hassan bin Talal

Chairman, Arab Thought Forum; President, Club of Rome

Carla Hills

Former U.S. Secretary of Housing; former U.S. Trade Representative

Asma Jahangir

UN Special Rapporteur on Extrajudicial, Summary or Arbitrary Executions;

Advocate Supreme Court, former Chair Human Rights Commission of Pakistan

Ellen Johnson Sirleaf

Senior Adviser, Modern Africa Fund Managers; former Liberian Minister of Finance

and Director of UNDP Regional Bureau for Africa

Mikhail Khodorkovsky

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, YUKOS Oil Company, Russia

Elliott F. Kulick

Chairman, Pegasus International, U.S.

Joanne Leedom-Ackerman

Novelist and journalist, U.S.

Todung Mulya Lubis

Human rights lawyer and author, Indonesia

Barbara McDougall

Former Secretary of State for External Affairs, Canada

Mo Mowlam

Former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, UK

Ayo Obe

President, Civil Liberties Organisation, Nigeria

Christine Ockrent

Journalist and author, France

Friedbert Pflüger

Chairman of the German Bundestag Committee on EU Affairs

Surin Pitsuwan

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Thailand

Itamar Rabinovich

President of Tel Aviv University; former Israeli Ambassador to the

U.S. and Chief Negotiator with Syria

Fidel V. Ramos

Former President of the Philippines

Mohamed Sahnoun

Special Adviser to the United Nations Secretary-General on Africa

Salim A. Salim

Former Prime Minister of Tanzania; former Secretary-General

of the Organisation of African Unity

Douglas Schoen

Founding Partner of Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates, U.S.

William Shawcross

Journalist and author, UK

George Soros

Chairman, Open Society Institute

Eduardo Stein

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Guatemala

Pär Stenbäck

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Finland

Thorvald Stoltenberg

Former Minister of Foreign Affairs, Norway

William O. Taylor

Chairman Emeritus, The Boston Globe, U.S.

Ed van Thijn

Former Netherlands Minister of Interior; former Mayor of Amsterdam

Simone Veil

Former President of the European Parliament; former Minister for Health, France

Shirley Williams

Former Secretary of State for Education and Science; Member House of Lords, UK

Jaushieh Joseph Wu

Deputy Secretary General to the President, Taiwan

Grigory Yavlinsky

Chairman of Yabloko Party and its Duma faction, Russia

Uta Zapf

Chairperson of the German Bundestag Subcommittee

on Disarmament, Arms Control and Non-proliferation

<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.garethevans.dynamite.com.au/ge_icg_finalpr.htm

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Your comment seems no less fanatical enough to me.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I'm a fanatical supporter of peace  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Ansar al-Islam came together as a group in September 2001, initially under the name of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), but its constituent factions have existed for several years.<span id='postcolor'>

The members of Ansar al-Islam sprung out of the other kurdish parties.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why? Because you'll always lose fighting against terror?<span id='postcolor'>

Our definition of fighting terrorism takes the form of binary oppositions I guess. I see terrorism as a symptom and would like something to be done to the root of the problem. I suspect you on the other hand only want to fight the symptoms.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Source?<span id='postcolor'>

Try the other Kurdish factions because you obviously distrust (understandable) Ansar al-Islam or the leader Mulla Krekar.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whose? Baram? Fighel? Both?<span id='postcolor'>

Both!