The Iraq Thread

[Akira 0]

Since the discussion is flowig so...."liquidly"...on a side note but still having to do with area of discussion....

A new group is starting to put out ads designed after the logic of the Bush Drug Ads....

IE...this groups ads state that if you drive an SUV you are contributing to terrorism by basically guzzling all that gas...

God I hate SUVs....

[ralphwiggum 6]

Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans,

a couple fo reminders.

in political debates such as this one, there are some common sense to follow.

1) stay on topic. do not stray away from topic title.

2) no flaming. we are here to exchange opinions not insults.

3) search - highway of death has been dealt before numerous times. i'm sure there will be some thread around a few pages back. and DO NOT post pics and links. immediate ban will follow due to nature of those pics and links(forum rule: no pictures of mutilation of any kind, no disgusting pics).

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ Dec. 17 2002,20:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Dec. 17 2002,18:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: The way the microsoft story is worded seems very bias.<span id='postcolor'>

I wouldn't doubt it...

What do you think the MS stands for in MSNBC?  <span id='postcolor'>

More Stupid?

[Chill 0]

All we can expect is the imperialist USA, to bomb Iraq, kill women and children and then move US oil companies in!

[ralphwiggum 6]

Chill, if you can't refarin from making a dumb comment again, maybe an imposed PR would do.

if you can't see, participants of this threads are way beyond such statements and are making some smart arguments back and forth.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

I have a request to the moderators:

Anyone can clearly see that this thread has become a big jumbled mess of various topics, some related to Iraq, some to Afghanistan, and a whole lot of FSPilot desperately trying to defend questionable U.S. foreign policies to the best of his abilities against a hoard of anti-US-involvement statements.  Add a few pages of spam, and you have yourself a "What is to be expected after the war on Iraq?" Thread.

I really wish you guys could perhaps start a new clean thread related to the war on terrorism in general. Here in the States we get a very one-sided view on this topic, and I find it fascinating to see what the international community have to say, especially from fellow gamers like myself. This thread is just too messy for me to make any worthy comments in.  

Let's start over. Please!!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Dec. 17 2002,16:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have a request to the moderators:

Anyone can clearly see that this thread has become a big jumbled mess of various topics, some related to Iraq, some to Afghanistan, and a whole lot of FSPilot desperately trying to defend questionable U.S. foreign policies to the best of his abilities against a hoard of anti-US-involvement statements. Add a few pages of spam, and you have yourself a "What is to be expected after the war on Iraq?" Thread.

I really wish you guys could perhaps start a new clean thread related to the war on terrorism in general. Here in the States we get a very one-sided view on this topic, and I find it fascinating to see what the international community have to say, especially from fellow gamers like myself. This thread is just too messy for me to make any worthy comments in.

Let's start over. Please!!

<span id='postcolor'>

Look how many mods there are around now... We are still on topic other than posts like that and mine right now... why do you want to have 20 threads about the same thing? Anyway, the mods will decide.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let's start over. Please!!<span id='postcolor'>

I see this thread more as "work in progress".

Like a discussion in real life. You start at a topic and find out that the topic contains a lot of single questions and comments. This thread is and was developing quite good in my opinion as for example even superhardliners found out that their knowledge may not be right or had some major gaps.

To start it all over is no good i guess. Anyone really interested should take the 49 pages and get into them as they provide a lot informantion on global dependencies and surely will improve knowledge on certain subjects. I think it is very interesting to read all that stuff.For sure if some spammers hit the deck the discussion is dead.

So back on topic.

This week talkings of exile Iraqui´s started on how to divide power and money and land after the removing of Saddam.

I thought : "Hey great ! This bunch of guys that dont actually life in Iraq but claim to have ancient rights are taslking about who will be set into power and how to make them all (not the Iraqi people of course) richer."

Bah! That stinks again. They are no better than Saddam is. I am not surprised that they already negotiate with major Oil companies about the post war time. Surprised ? I am not.

If US protects them after possible war it wont take long till the next civil war. Iraq to Iraq´s people ! Not to any exile businessmen or "ancient" beholders of power.

[FSPilot 0]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Lazarus_Long @ Dec. 18 2002,037)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...and a whole lot of FSPilot desperately trying to defend questionable U.S. foreign policies to the best of his abilities against a hoard of anti-US-involvement statements.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL, My thoughts EXACTLY!

I think this thread will do.  Yes it's kinda cluttered (as a matter of fact, I spent some time looking for the conversation on the highway of death, not knowing it was in this thread  ), but there's still some good conversation going on.

And I'd just like to reiterate, just so nobody thinks I'm maliciously breaking any rules, I didn't think I would violate any rules by posting that link.  It had been posted before and the moderators didn't seem to mind, so I didn't think it mattered.  In retrospect I probably should of warned that it contained violent material and I apologize.

[PitViper 0]

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1430_A_716376_1_A,00.html

Iraqi Report Could Prove Damaging to Germany

Iraq’s declaration of its weapons programs contains explosive news for Germany, a Berlin paper has reported. The dossier is said to detail covert arms deals between German defense firms and Iraq.

well well... looks like German opposition to the war could be a move to protect a covert arms business interest!

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 17 2002,22:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq to Iraq´s people ! Not to any exile businessmen or "ancient" beholders of power.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll back ya on that one...

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The dossier is said to detail covert arms deals between German defense firms and Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

... whaaaaa?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In October this year, a magazine of the German radio channel, Südwestrundfunk reported that electronics giant Siemens had delivered specialized technical equipment to Iraq for the treatment of kidney stones, but which could also under certain circumstances be used as a detonator for atom bombs.<span id='postcolor'>

:0:0

Interesting development. Looks like the Germans have some 'splaining to do.

[Lazarus_Long 0]

Well, the prospects of a new fresh thread looks bleak, so I guess I'll try to live with this one after all.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This week talkings of exile Iraqui´s started on how to divide power and money and land after the removing of Saddam.

I thought : "Hey great ! This bunch of guys that dont actually life in Iraq but claim to have ancient rights are taslking about who will be set into power and how to make them all (not the Iraqi people of course) richer."

Bah! That stinks again. They are no better than Saddam is. I am not surprised that they already negotiate with major Oil companies about the post war time. Surprised ? I am not.

If US protects them after possible war it wont take long till the next civil war. Iraq to Iraq´s people ! Not to any exile businessmen or "ancient" beholders of power.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I actually agree with you here.  If (or when) the US decides to take down Saddam, this could become a major problem.  Saddam has many enemies in his country and allthough we would appreciate as much local help as possible during any military campaign, we need to be very careful of whom we make friends with.  An Enemy of Saddam does not neccessarily mean that he would make a good western ally in peacetime.  It's this kind of wrong dealings that has made us look really bad in the past.  

On the other hand, if we get too involved with setting up a new govenrment, enforcing democratic elections, etc. then it will look like we are trying to set up a puppet regime... What could we do to make everyone happy?

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq for the treatment of kidney stones, but which could also under certain circumstances be used as a detonator for atom bombs.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh come on !

I can set up a huge list of materials that can be used for versatile objectives. This doesnt make it a weapon export.

If I send tubes of alluminium to Iraq I would risk so, too. They can be used in drilling for oil OR for stiffing pellets in for a nuclear power plant. Nothing new. As the report plain says "but which could also under certain circumstances be used " doesnt mean that it built for that.

Sell me a radio and i will build you a remotecontrol for a bomb out of it. Pretty stupid.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 17 2002,22:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The dossier is said to detail covert arms deals between German defense firms and Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

... whaaaaa?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In October this year, a magazine of the German radio channel, Südwestrundfunk reported that electronics giant Siemens had delivered specialized technical equipment to Iraq for the treatment of kidney stones, but which could also under certain circumstances be used as a detonator for atom bombs.<span id='postcolor'>

:0:0

Interesting development. Looks like the Germans have some 'splaining to do.<span id='postcolor'>

No wonder they won't join an attack....wouldn't want to upset their big business dealings....

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No wonder they won't join an attack....wouldn't want to upset their big business dealings.... <span id='postcolor'>

If you knew more about germany you would know that the linkage between government and industry is not very tight. Within the last 4 years industry lost a lot of power in government. They years before Schroeder took over were ruled by lobbies a lot. Kohl was a friend of them all and supported them in any issue. Now the situation has changed and what is the problem if Mercedes Benz is exporting cars and trucks to Iraq ? Read the report detailed, it does say that most of the arrangements were made before the new government took over. It also mentions double useage for standard goods. You can never be save of that.

[Balschoiw 0]

On the search for allies within Iraq US and Brits are playing the same game as they did with Osama Bin Laden.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One underground Iraqi group is Saddam’s fiercest enemy, which should make it a U.S. ally. But Al Daawa has lots of American blood on its hands <span id='postcolor'>

Will it work this time ?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/847703.asp?0sl=-21

[Schoeler 0]

Even though I support a war in Iraq if it happens for the right reasons, though I suspect that it isn't happening for those reasons. I hope however since it seems inevitable that war will happen that something good comes out of it. Preferably:

1. Elimination of WMD from a rogue state.

2. The removal from power of a brutal and oppressive dictator.

3. Establishment of a new Iraqi government that the world will recognize as legitimate and worthy of relations with.

4. Increased freedom and economic prosperity for the Iraqi people whatever system they decide to adapt.

5. Continued U.S. economic support to this new, more stabile Iraqi regime to insure its long term survival.

6. Iraqi appreciation for U.S. efforts to start them down the road to a better future.

7. The minimum amount of casualties possible for both sides.

8. A new oild deal for America and its allies to shore up the Iraqi economy and get rid of our beholden condition to the Saudis.

And tell me if I'm wrong but hasn't it been confirmed that arab terrorist groups have trained at Iraqi military sites, possibly even Al-Qaeda? I'll look for an article about that.

Also, the French have established a link between Mohammad Atta and Iraqi intelligence. I doubt the French would go around making something like that up considering the sheer love they have for U.S. foreign policy right now.

As for Cuba:

1. Things did improve under Castro as compared to under Batista.

2. U.S. support of Batista was wrong.

3. U.S. policies toward Cuba were likely misguided, but not all of them.

4. Both Castro and Kennedy plotted to kill each other so the animosity is understandable if not logical.

5. Improvement under Castro doesn't mean he was the best thing for Cuba, other routes could have been equally if not more productive.

6. The embargo should end, but likely will not until Castro dies.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The power vacuum created by the removal of Hussein and his Baathist military government will have numerous ramifications that will make any nation-building (I thought we were done with that? lol) efforts supremely difficult. One of the foremost issues: the sizable Kurdish minority in northern Iraq. Over the last few years, the Iraqui Kurds (who have always had ambitions toward self-determination) have created an enclave for themselves, where the Iraqui government has given them rein to control their own affairs, so long as they don't do anything drastic like rebel, or I dont know, aid an American attack.

This Kurdish enclave is looked upon with considerable envy by the Kurdish minorities in Turkey and Iran, and the national governments of the aforementioned countries are rather worried that a post Iraq map would have this enclave suddenly transformed into an independent Kurdish state. This, they worry, would engender nationalistic feelings among their Kurdish minorities that would damage their national interests (*cough*land*cough*oil*cough*).

This is especially worrying to Iran, because the border province of Kurdistan is adjacent to this enclave, and the Iranian Kurds are beginning to want the degree of self-government that their Iraqui brothers have.

Now, in the event of the victory of a US-led coalition in Iraq, the resolution of the Kurdish situation is integral to the stability of the region, as well as the well being of a newly formed Iraqi regime. Not to mention US relations to Iran and Turkey.

PS

This is some serious shit, because Iran and Turkey are so worried about the prospects of an independent Kurdish state, that IF Iraqi Kurdistan declares its independence, there is a very real possibility that Turkey and Iran will join forces to persuade the Iraqi Kurds otherwise. How would America deal with this situation, especially if we give our blessing to a Kurdish state. Would we come to their aid, or would we leave them in the lurch, just like in the early '90s?

[ralphwiggum 6]

that brings a good point of speculation.

should US manage to create gov't in Iraq after toppling sadam,(forget about the war thing here, ok? we are not discussing it, we are discussing future past that) should Kurds have their own place?

furthermore, would anti-Us be willing to oppose that? since Kurdish state, given above scenario, would be created under US assistance, and that will undoubtly cause its leaning towrds US.

then, anti-US ppl will whine that Us created another puppet regime. than what is the alternative? deny them of a state?

furthermore, should the Kurdish state be built, as mentioned by Tex, surrounding nations are uncomfortable. so how should the Jurds be treated? leave their residence(Turky, Iran) and move to new state, or just stay quiet and live in their residence?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I should make another point here. If this is all in conjunction with the WAR ON TERROR, then it might be a bit complicated that almost every single faction in the region has its own terrorist groups to use against the others- its just how they do business over there. Turkish Kurd seperatists stage attacks on Turkey from Iran, Iraq's People's Mujahadeen attacks Iranians in Khuzistan to destabilize that province as part of Iran and Iraq's ongoing 'non-war, definitely non-peace' relationship. And it goes on and on, in a violent merry go round of governments manipulating easily misguided fanatics, most of them religious in nature. Hell, Iraq has had almost as many jihads declared against it as the USA and Israel.

[Guest]

It is a very good point, Tex. I think many lessons can be drawn from Kosovo. The Kosovo-Albanians want their own land (or to join Albania). The Serbs didn't like that so Milosevic went in with guns blazing starting to drive the Albanians out of Kosovo. They did it in a brutal way and they were obviously the bad guys. The problem is however that the Serb interest concide with our (western) interests. Nobody ever intended to give the Albanians indenpendence.

Obviously this made them slightly pissed off. This made them difficult to handle for NATO and KFOR. So what was the solution? Well, we let the Serbs go back in with their military to keep the Albanians in control. This was only a couple of months after NATO forced the Yugoslav military out of Kosovo. That's realpolitik for you

Now, I can imagine similar problems coming up in Iraq. You have a couple of minorities. The Shi'a muslims who are actually an oppressed majority would very much like to join Iran. The Kurds want a state of their own (with a nice piece of the NATO country Turkey in it). Nothing of this is in US/NATO interest. So there will be a big heap of problems there.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

This whole can of worms is probably the best argument for not going in in the first place, but as we've been told, that is neither here nor there in this discussion

[Guest]

I think that we can safely presume that the decision has already been made. I don't think any arguments in the world will change Bush's determination for a war against Iraq.

I liked Colin Powells comment on the weapons report - something like "We decided that we wouldn't like it already before we saw it so now after we have seen it - we don't like it"

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 17 2002,22:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I liked Colin Powells comment on the weapons report - something like "We decided that we wouldn't like it already before we saw it so now after we have seen it - we don't like it"<span id='postcolor'>

That's good but don't worry, Colin always ends up bending over under pressure, once he decides he will conform, it's like a switch. He would prbably be packing his office if he did not.