The Iraq Thread

[Balschoiw 0]

as people tend to overread things I will post it again and want your opinion on it Akira

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not the US that is authorized to decide about global issues or declare states as evil or not. It is a thing of the international community collected under UN mandate. Is that so hard to understand ? The US signed contracts and needs to follow them as any other western nation has to.

So if you insist on upholding military presence in so called "hot spots" do it under the blue flag. Any national intervention can be taken as threat or attack by residents.

Make it easy for both parties. Go along with UN and assure that local conflicts are seddled and furthermore people benefit of a worldwide wellfare program like UNHCR, WFP and other organizations already offer.

<span id='postcolor'>

comments ?

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 16 2002,13:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nobody said we were going to have a new attack each week.  And we've also been stopping a lot of them before they happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? A lot of them? Can you provide a list?<span id='postcolor'>

There were 15 982 pocket knives seized by airport security over the Thanksgiving day weekend at US airports. Those could of been used to hijack planes like done on september eleventh.

-=Die Alive=-

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 16 2002,19:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were 15 982 pocket knives seized by airport security over the Thanksgiving day weekend at US airports.  Those could of been used to hijack planes like done on september eleventh.<span id='postcolor'>

I doubt that it qualifies. If you arrest randomly 100 people, have you stopped 100 homicides then? I mean every and each of the people you arrested is capable of killing.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">pocket knives<span id='postcolor'>

Not true as nail scissors and nail cutters were put into the same bowl. Makes difference doesn´t it ?

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ Dec. 16 2002,13:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Dec. 16 2002,13:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nobody said we were going to have a new attack each week. And we've also been stopping a lot of them before they happen.<span id='postcolor'>

Really? A lot of them? Can you provide a list?<span id='postcolor'>

There were 15 982 pocket knives seized by airport security over the Thanksgiving day weekend at US airports. Those could of been used to hijack planes like done on september eleventh.

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

And for your info I had a pocket knife siezed by security at Parliament here... that does not mean I was going to terrorize or hurt anyone with it, actually I forgot I carry stuff like that for rainy days. Which by the way come up here, in Gatineau you are very likely to come across bears, which I did, they are 99.999% friendly, but you never know. (no, you can't just punch a bear into submission) lol

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Dec. 16 2002,19:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">as people tend to overread things I will post it again and want your opinion on it Akira

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not the US that is authorized to decide about global issues or declare states as evil or not. It is a thing of the international community collected under UN mandate. Is that so hard to understand ? The US signed contracts and needs to follow them as any other western nation has to.

So if you insist on upholding military presence in so called "hot spots" do it under the blue flag. Any national intervention can be taken as threat or attack by residents.

Make it easy for both parties. Go along with UN and assure that local conflicts are seddled and furthermore people benefit of a worldwide wellfare program like UNHCR, WFP and other organizations already offer.

<span id='postcolor'>

comments ?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh I've never said that we had the right to declare States evil or not. We can have our opinions but I don't see a pick diplomatic help by coming out and saying "Hey...you are evil." We certainly have the right to decide about global issues and decide how WE will act, though I don't always agree with unilateral actions.

On many occassions I have said that the US should not be in Iraq without UN support, nor should we be making PUBLIC announcements about what we think Iraq is or isn't doing.

But what is mentioned there is somewhat different that what was originally proposed. What I heard is "Yank Go Home" without exception, and then you'll call us when we are needed. Here you say stay out there but do it under the Blue Flag...which really I don't have a problem with and support. But even if its under a Blue Flag, the US will take much of the load...not because we are better or whatever...just because we are cabable (not that other countries aren't!.

I have no problem with UN leading the way and think it should. But I think the organization also needs strengthening. And less political bickering...but then again you'll never get rid of that.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, what I am saying that even if you are killing an innocent person, there is no reason for fear. The probability for somebody getting killed by you would be very small. You would be an insignifican threat to the overall society.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not only human lives that we're worried about, but the effects it has on our economy and our country.  Besides, just because terrorist attacks don't get a high body count, doesn't mean we can ignore them.  It's like a murderer.  Sure he kills people, but only 1 or 2.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Really? A lot of them? Can you provide a list?<span id='postcolor'>

For the U.S. or worldwide?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many people of the ones killed in Afganistan do you think were connected to AQ?<span id='postcolor'>

Well all of them if they were Taliban soldiers.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the international court, it's the ICC that Bush decided not to join. Terrorists are criminals and should be dealt like criminals.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From http://www.iccwbo.org/home/intro_icc/how_works.asp

The ICC World Council is the equivalent of the general assembly of a major intergovernmental organization. The big difference is that the delegates are business executives and not government officials.<span id='postcolor'>

According to their website, ICC is more business oriented than government oriented. Why should we go to them with terrorists?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Afganistan showed, attacking the country where they might or might not be staying at the moment doesn't help at all. Osama is still alive and kicking.<span id='postcolor'>

Nobody can prove that either way.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And nobody has managed to produce any proof that Iraq has ever had any connections to AQ.<span id='postcolor'>

Is AQ the only terrorist cell in the world? What makes you think that Hussein wont give away his WMDs to another anti-U.S. cell?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 16 2002,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to their website, ICC is more business oriented than government oriented.  Why should we go to them with terrorists?<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, dear lord. Not that ICC this ICC. The UN International Crime Court.

[Akira 0]

hehehe

[ralphwiggum 6]

ROFLMAO!

damn acronyms

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Dec. 16 2002,20:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, what I am saying that even if you are killing an innocent person, there is no reason for fear. The probability for somebody getting killed by you would be very small. You would be an insignifican threat to the overall society.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not only human lives that we're worried about, but the effects it has on our economy and our country.  Besides, just because terrorist attacks don't get a high body count, doesn't mean we can ignore them.  It's like a murderer.  Sure he kills people, but only 1 or 2.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not talking about ignoring the terrorists. I am talking about not soaking your pants all the time. There is quite an irony in the situation, the more you fear the terrorists, the more you help them to achieve their goals.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many people of the ones killed in Afganistan do you think were connected to AQ?<span id='postcolor'>

Well all of them if they were Taliban soldiers.

<span id='postcolor'>

Even if we assumed that they all were Taliban soldiers does not make them connected to the AQ. The US is for instance sheltering Chinese dissdents that the Republic of China considers to be terrorists. Does that make all the American soldiers connected to Chinese terrorists?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As Afganistan showed, attacking the country where they might or might not be staying at the moment doesn't help at all. Osama is still alive and kicking.<span id='postcolor'>

Nobody can prove that either way.

<span id='postcolor'>

Proof by US intelligence agencies

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And nobody has managed to produce any proof that Iraq has ever had any connections to AQ.<span id='postcolor'>

Is AQ the only terrorist cell in the world?  What makes you think that Hussein wont give away his WMDs to another anti-U.S. cell?<span id='postcolor'>

They have not connected Saddam to any terrorist cells at all.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

This seems to be a political playpen. let's cut to the chase folks. The purpose of the military is to kill people and break things.

War has its utility. --it solves disputes: one side wins and other side loses plain and simple <evil grin> I am not a war-monger but me says to hell with the pacifists

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 16 2002,16:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am not a war-monger but me says to hell with the pacifists<span id='postcolor'>

Why do you say that, have they caused you some trouble or something? And anyway, that's not the topic.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

Whatever I say is the current topic. Besides, half the crap on this thread is unrelated so pipe down. I know you are a self-proclaimed pacifist so my comments were not directed at you in particular. However, if you want to take offense, that's fine.

As I recall, Albert was asked to be on the manhatten project but refused. The a-bomb was justified on utilitarian grounds--greatest good for the greatest number. The end did justify the means in this case.

Check this out: NEWS ALERT "There are problems" with Iraqi declaration of weapons program to United Nations, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says. Details soon.

go to CNN.com

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 16 2002,16:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whatever I say is the current topic. Besides, half the crap on this thread is unrelated so pipe down. I know you are a self-proclaimed pacifist so my comments were not directed at you in particular. However, if you want to take offense, that's fine.

As I recall, Albert was asked to be on the manhatten project but refused. The a-bomb was justified on utilitarian grounds--greatest good for the greatest number. The end did justify the means in this case.

Check this out: NEWS ALERT "There are problems" with Iraqi declaration of weapons program to United Nations, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says. Details soon.

go to CNN.com<span id='postcolor'>

I think you are out of line.

self proclaimed? is there something I'm missing here people? Do I need to get elected a pacifist? And I'm not so sure I even am a full blown pacifist.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 16 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whatever I say is the current topic.<span id='postcolor'>

No, it is whatever I say is the current topic

..and you should be more nice to other members, you were indeed out of line there.

[Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans 0]

Certainly bn880 will recall our previous discussion when he talked about his anti-war sentiments and directed me to his links at the bottom of his message which have an anti-war theme. Furthermore, his choice of avatars, Albert Einstein a documented pacifist, is further evidence of his fetish with pacifism. I guess if he is not "full blown," he is a hybrid of sorts.  

Take care folks. I need to go fix a computer problem I had earlier with VB 6.

[Akira 0]

Arafat Tell Bin Laden: Don't Use Palestine Issue

Thought that was quite interesting...

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 16 2002,16:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Certainly bn880 will recall our previous discussion when he talked about his anti-war sentiments and directed me to his links at the bottom of his message which have an anti-war theme. Furthermore, his choice of avatars, Albert Einstein a documented pacifist, is further evidence of his fetish with pacifism. I guess if he is not "full blown," he is a hybrid of sorts.

Take care folks. I need to go fix a computer problem I had earlier with VB 6.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, and all that changes nothing about what you said.

EDIT: it is not a fetish, you are a very strange person I think.

EDIT2: Okay, now that I think of it, what the heck does this have to do with this thread?

[CosmicCastaway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans @ Dec. 16 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Check this out: NEWS ALERT "There are problems" with Iraqi declaration of weapons program to United Nations, U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says. Details soon.

go to CNN.com<span id='postcolor'>

I found it quite humorous when that little statement was splashed accross the headlines. I think it was about 12 hours after Iraq handed over the dossier. 12,000 pages or somesuch number, bloody fast readers these politicians is all I can say.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, dear lord.   Not that ICC this ICC. The UN International Crime Court.<span id='postcolor'>

*slaps forehead*

D'oh!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm not talking about ignoring the terrorists. I am talking about not soaking your pants all the time. There is quite an irony in the situation, the more you fear the terrorists, the more you help them to achieve their goals.<span id='postcolor'>

What gives you the impression that I am afraid of terrorists?  I was actually an advocate of not giving them much media attention as it fuels them too much and makes everyone afraid.

But just because you shouldn't be afraid of it, doesn't mean you should let it happen without a fight.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even if we assumed that they all were Taliban soldiers does not make them connected to the AQ. The US is for instance sheltering Chinese dissdents that the Republic of China considers to be terrorists. Does that make all the American soldiers connected to Chinese terrorists?<span id='postcolor'>

The Taliban was sheltering the AQ, therefore the Taliban, and it's soldiers, were fair game for the U.S. and it's allies.

And it depends on what you mean by "Chinese terrorists".  Are these people attacking civilians, or are they waging a war against China?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Proof by US intelligence agencies<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I had heard otherwise on the radio, but I can't find a source/

But anyway, so what if he's alive?  If we take down the governments that support terrorists, eventually they'll stop supporting terrorists.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They have not connected Saddam to any terrorist cells at all.<span id='postcolor'>

So we're supposed to wait until after he gives his WMDs to terrorists to connect him to them?

If you ask me, we should get Saddam out of power regardless of if he's connected to terrorists or not.  He's broken his terms of surrender numerous times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Arafat Tell Bin Laden: Don't Use Palestine Issue

Thought that was quite interesting...<span id='postcolor'>

Looks like Bin Laden's going to need to issue another fatwa.

[Harnu 0]

Man, I go to sleep, then go to school, and when I come home, theres 6 more pages! O well, a lot for me to argue about.

Let's begin

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still insist - disband your bases and go home, and don't come back out anywhere unless the UN asks you to.

Bang, you have 98% of the hate defeated, no more excuses for terrorism. You will be able to live in peace, others will be able to live in peace.<span id='postcolor'>

That may sound like a grand idea. But just completely withdrawing from there would make us look like wimps. And you know well enough were too egotistical to do that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wait a second, you think there is something wrong with that? As an example: I only call pest/insect control to spray when I want them to control a problem, then I appreciate if they back off and stop spraying their poison when it's not needed. Are you any different? Would you like to pay a company $300 to spray your house one day, and then have them do it every day? Until maybe you feel like selling your property cheap so that a road can be built across it? (ahh, I just remembered, any analogy is not understood by you guys... too bad)

<span id='postcolor'>

I understand analogies quite well, too bad you don't use appropriate ones. We aren't just there killing people every day.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Akira @ Dec. 16 2002,188)

3-->Quote (denoir @ Dec. 16 2002,183)

Ok now kids, calm down, all of you. Or uncle denoir will get the Big Stickâ„¢

Damn pervert Mods!

Stop drooling Akira! I said Big Stick™ not My Big Stick™®©

I think Avon had a picture of it.

Quote (theavonlady @ Dec. 16 2002,18:21)

A bit excessive, Denoir, aren't we?

Yes, imagine the pain when I hit you in the head with one of those

<span id='postcolor'>

If you have nothing to contribute, dont post

Tales_From_Topographic_Oceans, nothing about what you posted, but damn, whats with the long name

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, I had heard otherwise on the radio, but I can't find a source/

<span id='postcolor'>

Lemme guess, ManCow?

And wow, 6 pages that was a lot of spam.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Dec. 16 2002,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Man, I go to sleep, then go to school, and when I come home, theres 6 more pages!  O well, a lot for me to argue about.

Let's begin  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still insist - disband your bases and go home, and don't come back out anywhere unless the UN asks you to.

Bang, you have 98% of the hate defeated, no more excuses for terrorism. You will be able to live in peace, others will be able to live in peace.<span id='postcolor'>

That may sound like a grand idea.  But just completely withdrawing from there would make us look like wimps.  And you know well enough were too egotistical to do that.   <span id='postcolor'>

LMAO, at least you are being honest about it

[Harnu 0]

Hehe, I try.

And no one answered me through 6 pages. What were the ICC and Kyoto agreements? Haven't lerned about those yet.

[FSPilot 0]

The ICC is NOT this ICC!