The Iraq Thread

[Crazysheep 1]

Quote[/b] ]Mass grave of dolls found in Iraq.

What's your point with that? It doesn't add to the discussion one way or the other.

[Die Alive 0]

Oh sorry, you were talking about Bush/USA/Politics. My mistake, I'll post in the non-Iraq thread nex time, such as the Matrix thread.

Sorry again.

-=Die Alive=-

[DarkLight 0]

Isnt it time to change the name of this thread into THE IRAN THREAD

lets be honest. The countdown to a war in Iran is a stable as an atomic watch. The US administration wont bother bringing back home all equipment and troops if it sees another "opportunity" to make us of them. The fixed-costs of the war were immense and must pay off  

Iran countdown begins

I think you'll be eating those words. It would be stupid to interfere in the already collapsing power of the mullahs.

Am i really the only one who sees that this guy wrote febuari?  Now i might be wrong, but i didn't know the month after january was called febuari...

Gotta love the army...

Anyone?

[Die Alive 0]

Isnt it time to change the name of this thread into THE IRAN THREAD

lets be honest. The countdown to a war in Iran is a stable as an atomic watch. The US administration wont bother bringing back home all equipment and troops if it sees another "opportunity" to make us of them. The fixed-costs of the war were immense and must pay off  

Iran countdown begins

I think you'll be eating those words. It would be stupid to interfere in the already collapsing power of the mullahs.

Am i really the only one who sees that this guy wrote febuari?  Now i might be wrong, but i didn't know the month after january was called febuari...

Gotta love the army...

Anyone?

Don't know, I use the Jewish Calendar.

-=Die Alive=-

[-TU--33ker 0]

I read February on that helmet.

[Die Alive 0]

Does it really matter, he's DEROSing home in that month, no matter how he spells it.

-=Die Alive=-

[Postduifje 0]

$33ker @ June 04 2003,17:58)]I read February on that helmet.

No, Febuary

-Post

[ralphwiggum 6]

ISPs? Who is talking about ISPs? It's the infrastructure that's important! It's the high bandwith wireless 3G network and the tons of fiber optics that connects the entire country. ISPs have nothing to do with it  

having infrastructure does not neccessarily mean that internet is used in vital parts of economy. for example, assume that country A has infrastructure like yours but is not adapting them specifically to economic activity such as logistics and surplus management, customer support, felxibility in operation. say country B has less evenly distributed infrastructure, but uses internet extensively in economic activity described above. in above scenario, A has better infrastructure, but utilizationwise, B gets the vote. having a tool and utilizing a till is not the same thing.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]back ont he article i linked, seems like you missed the conclusion. th conclusion was that US should learn how to use its power correctly.

No, his conclusion was that USA is unpopular because people think it is too powerful. And I'm saying: bullshit! The US was stronger 5-10 years ago and people did indeed like USA.

Quote[/b] ]"Where we are now," says Nayan Chanda, publications director at the Yale Center for the Study of Globalization (whose Web site yaleglobal .yale.edu is full of valuable nuggets), "is that you have this sullen anger out in the world at America. Because people realize they are not going to get a vote over American power, they cannot do anything about it, but they will be affected by it."

Finding a stable way to manage this situation will be critical to managing America's relations with the rest of the globe. Any ideas? Let's hear 'em:

read the bolded phrase. you are correct about the power being the element of discussion, but you missed the part about "how" the power should be used. and even 5-10 years ago, people did not like US. apart from ususal Palestinians and Iraqis, many intellects around the globe viewed emergence of US after fall of USSR to be a threat.

[Die Alive 0]

click here ==>  <== click here

-=Die Alive=-

[9mm 0]

Sometimes i think that fighting wing of Republicans which seems to be at power now, suffers a serious lack of imagination an pespective thinking.

There are certain ways to civilize Iran without waving the gun, like supporting the democratic structures which seem to have quite large support of Iranian citizens. Instead, current actions of Bush administration simly work for fundamentalist leaders.

On the other hand i'm really sory that we Europeans just can't find a common view with our American allies, and somethimes just won't even try to understand them.

However, when i read such things like

Quote[/b] ]When Europe's global wars erupted, the American people had the correct gut instinct. "Don't get drawn into those fools' wars". Unfortunately, we had leaders at those times who thought we should get involved in your personal business and in doing so, destroyed the detached partition we had from recurring European barbarism. They were wrong by dragging us into those wars.

it really hurts, especially here in Poland.

[DarkLight 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Bush searches to destroy what might cause harm to the US. He has identified 2 targets:Threats by nations (axis of evil) armed with WMD and threats by terorist organisations. Or as he puts it: destroying evil.

During this mission he has caused 2 wars. What we can say untill now is that none of the 2 wars has succeeded in initial objectives.

Afghanistan:

destroy terorist network of Bin Laden.

Iraq:

Destroy WMD

Both missions have failed miserably. First of all you cant destroy evil cause destruction is its nourishment. The war against an arab country was the best free recruitment-promotion for Al Quaida. Money is streaming back in and large scale operations are being planned (whether with or withour Bin Laden... in the arab world a dead leader becomes an immortal symbol).

Iraq. The supposed WMD have caused war 2. What the Bush described as "100% assuring intelligence information" now slowly turns out to be a deliberately misinterpreted information. The accusals that BUSH faces in the US by CIA officials Blair will soon face in the UK. Blix was sceptical about the information presented to him during the UN council and he was right to do so. Of course the Texas-boys were convinced that the UN-inspectors dont find anything cause they were to sensitive in their way of searching the country. It would need a strong hand and force to make those weapons visible.

Two missions failed. Their initial objectives were re-interpreted as "liberating the people". But the problem with war is that it leaves behind scarfs. The objectives have failed and people died. Who pays the bill? Does no american feel he is responsible for voting Bush, Bush having caused a war, and this war has killed people without the intended result? Two failed missions and you still think he succeed just because he won a war? If an agressor simply wants to WIN A WAR then this is either a crusade or Lebensraum-gewinnung.

I am still failing to see your reasoning.

It is time for Hillary to pay back what the republicans have done to her husband.....It is WHITE-HOUSE-TIME!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Two missions failed. Their initial objectives were re-interpreted as "liberating the people".

Do you remember Bush saying that elections will take place in around 6 months after the war ?

Do you remember Bush saying the Iraqi opposition parties will play a major role in Iraq - after - Saddam ?

Do you remember the word democracy related to Iraq ?

Well seems like all of these proposals have had the same quality as the WMD reports from the Brits and the US had.

Lies again.

It´s official now. US now speaks of a longterm US presence in Iraq and it will form the government.

You know what I call this ?

BETRAYAL AND LOOTING A COUNTRY THE US CLAIMED TO FREE / DISARM / etc....

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

6 months

6 months after what war? Elections where? I am confused! Sehr verwirrend!

[Badgerboy 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

January, Febuary, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

In that order, with those spellings.

[Die Alive 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

January, Febuary, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

In that order, with those spellings.

You're joking, right?

-=Die Alive=-

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]Two missions failed. Their initial objectives were re-interpreted as "liberating the people".

Do you remember Bush saying that elections will take place in around 6 months after the war ?

Do you remember Bush saying the Iraqi opposition parties will play a major role in Iraq - after - Saddam ?

Do you remember the word democracy related to Iraq ?

Well seems like all of these proposals have had the same quality as the WMD reports from the Brits and the US had.

Lies again.

It´s official now. US now speaks of a longterm US presence in Iraq and it will form the government.

You know what I call this ?

BETRAYAL AND LOOTING A COUNTRY THE US CLAIMED TO FREE / DISARM / etc....

A few questions for you Balschoiw:

1) Have the six months elapsed yet? I was under the impression that the war ended only a few weeks ago. Perhaps I'm incorrect. It might be that our American propaganda machine, the U.S. media failed to inform us about the true start of the war. I'm sure the internet conspiracy sources have portrayed things more accurately.

2) Last I heard, the Bush administration was and is working on getting a solvent interim Iraqi administration started in the first steps to return the rule of Iraq to the Iraqis. for example, in Fallujah, the Americans work in the same office as the Iraqi elected mayor does. Both administrations are working side by side to restore utilities, ship in food and distribute fresh water to the people of the town. But then again, my sources are probably corrupt right. I mean surely it would have been better for the U.S. to pull out of Iraq immediately after the war right? That way things could descend into chaos and anarchy, and the only law in Iraq would be the law of the gun. What might you people have been saying about America's foreign policy then? You can't have it both ways there sparky. I think the more responsible thing to do is to stick around and get the rule of law returned to Iraq. Thats going to take a while (3-5 years) and you of all people should know that.

3) Where have you seen any official pronouncements or assessments by foreign governments that democracy is not to be the next form of government in Iraq? I'd like to see credible sources instead of ridiculous hyperbolic claims based upon conspiracy theories and fantasy please.

4) How exactly has the U.S. betrayed and looted Iraq? Last I saw, the Iraqi people were quite free toexpress their displeasure over the speed of recovery operations in their country. a right they certainly did not enjoy before. They also are selecting their own leaders and playing a part in determining the future of Iraq at the several highly publicized council meetings that have been held on the subject. Shiite muslims also have a newfound freedom of religion and a stake in determining the future of their country, perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought they were violently oppressed under Saddam. Also, last I heard, the disarmament of Iraq was under way through peaceful measures asking the Iraqis to turn in their guns during an amnesty period. This must not be fast enough for you, tell me would it satisfy you if we chose the more expedient method of simply shooting all armed Iraqis? Or, how about house to house raids? That would surely get the people on our side right?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Last time I checked, the Iraqi people were doing a fairly decent job of looting Iraq on their own.

[Badgerboy 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

January, Febuary, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

In that order, with those spellings.

You're joking, right?

-=Die Alive=-

Eh? Does your year function in a different way to mine?

[Die Alive 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

January, <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Febuary</span>, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

In that order, with <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>those spellings</span>.

You're joking, right?

-=Die Alive=-

Eh? Does your year function in a different way to mine?

-=Die Alive=-

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]1) Have the six months elapsed yet?  I was under the impression that the war ended only a few weeks ago.  Perhaps I'm incorrect.  It might be that our American propaganda machine, the U.S. media failed to inform us about the true start of the war.  I'm sure the internet conspiracy sources have portrayed things more accurately.

The US authorities have already cancelled that plan.

It was in the news 2 days ago.

Quote[/b] ]2) Last I heard, the Bush administration was and is working on getting a solvent interim Iraqi administration started in the first steps to return the rule of Iraq to the Iraqis.  for example, in Fallujah, the Americans work in the same office as the Iraqi elected mayor does.  Both administrations are working side by side to restore utilities, ship in food and distribute fresh water to the people of the town. But then again, my sources are probably corrupt right.  I mean surely it would have been better for the U.S. to pull out of Iraq immediately after the war right?  That way things could descend into chaos and anarchy, and the only law in Iraq would be the law of the gun.  What might you people have been saying about America's foreign policy then?   You can't have it both ways there sparky.  I think the more responsible thing to do is to stick around and get the rule of law returned to Iraq.  Thats going to take a while (3-5 years) and you of all people should know that.

Well the war wasnt a fast shot. It was planned some time ago. The only thing the Us left out were to set up plans for the time after the war. You dropped the Iraqis literally into a big black hole with the non-planned time after war.

You don´t have to be an expert in humanitarian aid to see that the coalition forces were and in parts are not prepared and trained to do that job.

It´s been a while since the water supplies have been cut off. Not by sabotage acts but by US bombs and coalition measures. You seem to have no problem in bombing things but you don´t have the knowledge and or willingness to rebuild very BASIC infrastructure elements. Oh well sure, as long as the Iraqis cant survive on their own they will be a gratefull population for a US colony. The real funny deal is that volunteers, workers from the installations are denied access to their former workplaces. They stand at the fences and wait for some miracles to happen but the coalition forces don´t seem to be very eager in their job (they have to do it you know it). Intentionally ? Lack of knowledge ? What is it ?

Quote[/b] ]Last I heard, the Bush administration was and is working on getting a solvent interim Iraqi administration started in the first steps to return the rule of Iraq to the Iraqis.

Yes but without the Iraqis votes. They will setup a clinical administration like they did in Afghanistan. This worked perfect didn´t it ?

You really should check the news as there are major directive changes when it comes to Iraq and democracy. Noone of the US officials mentiones the word democracy anymore.

Quote[/b] ]ridiculous hyperbolic claims based upon conspiracy theories and fantasy please.

Sorry but that´s the truth.

The US was basically following a 3 step plan to get democracy to Iraq:

1. Interim US administration

2. US administration with participation of Iraqi citizens

3. free elections

Now Bremer stated in an interview that the duration for phase 1 will be much longer than expected. He did not pinpoint a timeline but said that phase two will be initiated not this year and not next year.

Isn´t that very clear ?

I don´t talk about installed guys but determined Iraqi citizens who can take over administration jobs.

Basically he ruled out everyone with knowledge in Iraq because he said that no former member of the Bath party will be involved in that segments. Shall I tell you a secret ? Most of the administration-, science-, research-, educational- personel were for sure in the Baath party. Why ? You can easily answer that question on your own. So what he basically said was that the Iraqi people will not be allowed to run their own country unless a new, totally Baath party free generation is on the line. See what I mean ? It´s the gentle way to tell the Iraqi´s to piss off.

Even germany was allowed to put people into business again who worked for Hitler and the death of millions. But in a mambo jumbo country where the coaltion forces have found nothing than dust, a country that certainly wasn´t able to start an attack with WMD´s within 48 hours like the british report on WMD´s stated, you don´t allow the people themselves to choose what they want.

I don´t press for free elections (they will most likely never take place as the Shia´s would run the country afterwards, wich wouldn´t be TBA´s favourite for a second), but I press for a right for Iraqi people to decide what they want to do with THEIR OWN country. Iraq didnt attack the Us nor it attacked GB, Poland or Spain or Australia. They were attacked for dubiouse reasons. Do you think the Brits MI-6 is accusing Blair for fakeing evidence and papers just for fun ?

The coaltion forces have to rebuild the infrastructure asap. It was an illegal war and now they have to take care of the peoiple they attacked for false reasons. It´s that easy.

Quote[/b] ]Last I saw, the Iraqi people were quite free toexpress their displeasure over the speed of recovery operations in their country.

So does this mean that if I don´t get shot during a protest (although I still remeber some deaths amongst protesters in Iraq, don´t you ? ) I should be happy as hell and shut up ?

What would you do if a nation from overseas invades your country , bombs it to bits and you don´t even have clear water for your kids and it turns out that the most hyped reasons for this war were nothing but lies ? What would you do if you are even not allowed to take care of the things you know because you worked there quite a while ? What would you think if you see that noone really cared about wells, electricity and such, but guards the oil ministry like the pentagon ?

Would you still feel "freed" ??

People in iraq don´t feel that way. Or are they still transmitting pictures of gratefull Iraqi´s onto your TV ?

My TV shows a fast growing anger against the US troops in Iraq. My TV shows reinforcements that have to be transported into towns like Fallujah. the one you mentioned. They dont get them there to have some talks. They get them into Fallujah cause they are afraid of some major uprisings.

Quote[/b] ]Shiite muslims also have a newfound freedom of religion and a stake in determining the future of their country, perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought they were violently oppressed under Saddam

And guess what their leader says ? Does he want the US in his country ? What kind of freedom is that ?

It´s like:

"Hey ok you have freedom of speech and such now, but don´t even dare to step onto our toes or dare to tell us what you want to do with your country. We are the boss noone else."

Quote[/b] ]Also, last I heard, the disarmament of Iraq was under way through peaceful measures asking the Iraqis to turn in their guns during an amnesty period.

Well you don´t know much about the way the people life in that region if you honestly think they will return their guns. They are part of their life, history and tradition. Go to Jemen and hop onto a plane and you will see that every man of a certain age carries his weapons with pride. They have knives and firearms and it´s totally ok for them to have them with them wherever they go. If the coaltion forces should try to disarm the Iraqi peole violently they will have a really funny time.

It´s like going to Texas and telling the guys to hand over their weapons. You know what they would do. Even in the US.

EDIT: Ouch !! Long read for you all , but I hope some make it to the end

[Badgerboy 0]

$33ker @ June 03 2003,18:58)]I read February on that helmet.

I'm sorry, i thought he also wrote it with an i

But still, there's still Febuary on the helmet and that's not the right way to write it ..... i think ;)

January, <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Febuary</span>, March, April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

In that order, with <span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>those spellings</span>.

You're joking, right?

-=Die Alive=-

Eh? Does your year function in a different way to mine?

-=Die Alive=-

Quite right!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

It's spelled February

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Arent the Iraqis not entitled to a 2nd amendment? I thought that the republicans consider the right to bear arms an important piece of democracy. And I remember that a jewish organisation claims that gun-laws are made to surpress and even enable genocides. Still, I am not surprised that those organisations now dont defend the right of the iraqis.  

And Balschoiw is right when he sais that the current US administration in Iraq is doing a miserable job COMPARED to what has been promised and the time they had to plan ahead. But the war was priority number one (and much more fun to plan).

Please dont be so rude to claim that all efforts now being made in Iraq are organised by the US government. A swiss RED CROSS (you wont find anything more independant than that) has found that lots of the current aid and help stems from aid-organisations (e.g. Red Crescent) and ..surprise...surprise from surrounding countries such as Syria (SARC) and Iran (ICRC) (whoa!!! axis of evil.... the devil himself spends money to save starving children??? how is the US media gonna explain that?). Have a look around the Original Red Cross / Red Crescent Site and you will see that suddenly after the war all american "war heros" seem to have become invisible, at least as humanitarian work is concerned.

But instead you see people from the Axis of Evil and Swiss- Cheese-Eaters doing the job which Iconsider as the real heroic job. 111 million swiss francs immediate injection into iraq to assisst 300.000 people, that in my eyes is better than knocking down dictator-statues.

Of course financial aid for Iraqi people might cost each american citizen a bit more than an american flag (obligatory after 9/11) and a T-shirt with "I pray for our soldiers" .

And of course a big bill kills all the self-orgasmic patriotism. How boring. War can be such a nice drug! After all they should be happy we freed them. Nothing is more important than freedom, right?

And for those of you who didnt get it. The end of the sanctions is NOT helpful at all. It will be disastrous for the most vulnerable, particularly if the UN Oil-for-Food programme is disrupted. Before they were at least able to fire-fight the most extreme cases of poverty...now the whole bush is burning!

The US (each and every voter) has turned Iraq into a modern day Carthage where innocents have paid a heavy price for US ambitions. If the US administration thought about little nice slogans like "Our world humanity was recently touched and scorched by the buttons of America’s weapons of mass destruction. The freedom slogan, "preemptive war" why couldnt they also come along with preemptive-aid? Maybe it was kind of too abstract!

[MLF 0]

Sorry i could not resist, its a Vid on the realtionshp between Bush and Blair

Click Me