The Iraq Thread

[PitViper 0]

Denoir, that is because we tend to train toward the warplan rather than for OOTW.

[PitViper 0]

Iraq used French missiles made last year?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/899533.asp

[Guest]

2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,152)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir,  that is because we tend to train toward the warplan rather than for OOTW.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, you found out that the hard way in Somalia. There are of course different situations of peace keeping but very often you have to deal with real war zones. There may not be many air strikes or tank battles but on the other hand you have to deal with guerilla tactics and all forms of unconventional warfare. Not to mention shit like mines, UXO etc.

It's a good thing the Iraqis were such pushovers

[theavonlady 2]

And remember that French bottle of wine US troops found?

I bet Saddam's fridge is packed with foie gras.

[ran 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,153)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Iraq used French missiles made last year?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/899533.asp<span id='postcolor'>

logistics aren't my stuff , so i can't judge about the serial numbers on these missiles

but what numbers had the other missiles ?

and if you , yankees , found these , it's that they haven't been shot at your precious birds

[Col. Kurtz 0]

Here is a good article on the looting of the Museum in Baghdad. Some Iraqis must have some really fine pieces of art in their houses aye? With luck they will be able to track down quite abit of the stuff and reclaim it. But there is stuff that will probably never be recovered, and many artifacts that have been destroyed. Really sad considering that a squad of US Soldiers probably could have stopped the buildings been looted in the first place. But of course, they were too busy making sure that the oil ministry was protected for the good of the Iraqi people right?

[killagee 0]

I'm with Denoir. A countries record of Peace Keeping is of prime importance. I am very proud of New Zealands role in this. Much of our expertise is in Peace Keeping and De-Mining. We are bloody good at it. So are the Swedes, British and Romanians (funnily enough..)

There seem to be an abundance of hillarious stories concering the US armed forces that anybody who serves anywhere near them has.

I am worried about them trying to police Iraq, let alone the world...

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (killagee @ April 14 2003,15:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Much of our expertise is in Peace Keeping and De-Mining. We are bloody good at it. So are the Swedes, British and Romanians (funnily enough..)<span id='postcolor'>

and us ??

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 14 2003,09:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Denoir,  that is because we tend to train toward the warplan rather than for OOTW.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, you found out that the hard way in Somalia. There are of course different situations of peace keeping but very often you have to deal with real war zones. There may not be many air strikes or tank battles but on the other hand you have to deal with guerilla tactics and all forms of unconventional warfare. Not to mention shit like mines, UXO etc.

It's a good thing the Iraqis were such pushovers <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

bah.. we do train in MOUT though.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 14 2003,09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and if you , yankees , found these , it's that they haven't been shot at your precious birds<span id='postcolor'>

Rather pointless assertion.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,15:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 14 2003,09:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and if you , yankees , found these , it's that they haven't been shot at your precious birds<span id='postcolor'>

Rather pointless assertion.<span id='postcolor'>

but all the things might aswell be the result of blackmarket transactions

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 14 2003,15:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (killagee @ April 14 2003,15:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Much of our expertise is in Peace Keeping and De-Mining. We are bloody good at it. So are the Swedes, British and Romanians (funnily enough..)<span id='postcolor'>

and us ?? <span id='postcolor'>

AND us.

Hell, Peacekeeping is about the only thing the Canadian military is good for.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hear the eating of humble pie as we speak!  <span id='postcolor'>

No that's the sound of you eating shit, American shit.

<span id='postcolor'>

What do you know, it doesn't taste like roses!

Cheerio imbecile!

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,13:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 13 2003,21:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo.<span id='postcolor'>

*chuckle*<span id='postcolor'>

Unless you've served in uniform, and in a combat zone with many AK toting nutcases, I wouldn't belittle anything that Denoir has done, and you haven't.

Also remember, the protanginists in that theatre were smart, and deadly. They knew how to use their weapons and their brains effectively, unlike the Iraqis at the moment.

Remember peace keeping is harder in practise, as you can't just hose everything in sight with gunfire.

Would you like to stand in the middle of two factions who have been trying to kill each other for many years, and are pretty good at it? Blowing stuff up is easy, doing it in moderation is harder.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Badgerboy @ April 14 2003,16:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also remember, the protanginists in that theatre were smart, and deadly. They knew how to use their weapons and their brains effectively<span id='postcolor'>

that was when they weren't drunk (if it's the same kind as the ones i've met)

but yeah , there were also quite a few professionals who knew what they were doing

[PitViper 0]

It's my understanding that the only force which did any significant fighting was the KLA.  The peacekeeping forces moved in after.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's my understanding that the only force which did any significant fighting was the KLA.  The peacekeeping forces moved in after.<span id='postcolor'>

No. The prelude was that the Yugoslav army used the UCK (KLA) activity as an excuse to start ethnically cleansing Kosovo. During Operation Allied Force NATO armed UCK so that they could defend themselves. After the cease fire agreement the Yugoslav army withdrew from Kosovo but a large number of paramiltary forces stayed behind.

Then the peace keepers moved in. At that time UCK became a problem since the Albanians realized that they had been royally screwed and that they weren't getting a country of their own. They started attacking both peace keepers and Serbian civilians. The Serbian paramilitary forces then retaliated and the whole cycle started. By 2001 the UCK was so much of a problem that KFOR worked with Yugoslav special forces (who were responsible for a lot of the ethnical cleansing in the first place) to subdue the Kosovars.

Not to mention that UCK has about 50 different factions with different degrees of how radical they are.

Yugoslavia on the other hand has made every effort to arm their own people in Kosovo.

By the end of 2001 things were getting more or less under control because of the large exodus of Serbs from Kosovo to Serbia. The UN controlled government has also been surprisingly efficient.

[PitViper 0]

aha.  Thx for the insight.  I had read that the KLA were problematic and I originally did not support temporary aligning with them knowing their connections to Albanian extremists, organized crime (gun, drug, sex slave running) and their goals in the region. blech, that region is an absolute mess.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,15:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bah.. we do train in MOUT though.  <span id='postcolor'>

That's the big problem. You train, but you have no experience. And when you do get the chance then you send b-quality units. You don't have the institutional experience for such operations so in the end even your best get their asses killed.

We also train MOUT but we can back it up by experience from constant participation in peace keeping missions which often require operations in urban centers. It beats all forms of training because it's the real thing. Because of the large number of peace keeping missions around the world we can always have this as base where our soldiers get their experience.

Talking about MOUT, go to http://reuters.feedroom.com. Scroll back to a video called "Baghdad Firefight" (position 46-48). Look at their movement and at the tall buildings. Had that been in Sarajevo in '92-'93 they would all have been dead.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">aha.  Thx for the insight.  I had read that the KLA were problematic and I originally did not support temporary aligning with them knowing their connections to Albanian extremists, organized crime (gun, drug, sex slave running) and their goals in the region.<span id='postcolor'>

Yepp. Huge black market. It's getting better though.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">blech, that region is an absolute mess.

<span id='postcolor'>

It depends. Kosovo is relatively a mess. Bosina & Herzegovina is so-so. A lot lot better then Kosovo but there is still work to be done. Serbia is fucked economically. Macedonia is a disaster waiting to happen. Slovenia & Croatia have recovered completely and will soon join the EU.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 14 2003,17:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Talking about MOUT, go to http://reuters.feedroom.com. Scroll back to a video called "Baghdad Firefight" (position 46-48).  Look at their movement and at the tall buildings. Had that been in Sarajevo in '92-'93 they would all have been dead.<span id='postcolor'>

-edit- : hmm ..... not clear what i'm trying to say

anyway , bosnia herzegovina back in 1993 was a real cutthroat

i think that after Lebanon , this period was a second "test" for UN peacekeeping forces

but it's during these 2 conflicts that peacekeeping really became what it is today , lebanon proven how vulnerable peacekeeping troops were in an urban envirronement and bosnia shown the impossibilty to accomplish a mission with too strict ROE's and too small support

the results came later when the ROE's in bosnia have been changed and where real meens have been given to the troops on the field

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Frisbee @ April 14 2003,06:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmm...some...great arguing there...

If you were in nam you'd be mature enough to comment decently,unless you were one of those soldiers that gave all the others a bad name.  <span id='postcolor'>

Yeah, everything except the ´nam claim could just as easily have come from a 13-year old

[ran 0]

you will notice i often talk about Bosnia , but you know why

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 13 2003,19:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you will notice i often talk about Bosnia , but you know why <span id='postcolor'>

Why?

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ April 14 2003,18:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you will notice i often talk about Bosnia , but you know why <span id='postcolor'>

I don't.