The Iraq Thread

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,19:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"While I think they could be doing a MUCH better job at this, that obligation comes into effect when combat operations have ceased.  They haven't exactly done that yet."

Several cities have been liberated. There is no more fighting, but plenty of looting.<span id='postcolor'>

There is no more fighting? What rock are you hiding under?

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 13 2003,20:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"oil can be used for reconstruction of Iraq after war. while the artifacts cannot. they are both important, but for immediate future, and to survive, you need to have somrthing to sell and buy foods. artifacts sure won't do that unless you loan them to other museums."

What good is that oil when the people are dieing because they cant get care at hospitals, because all food has been looted and because they risk getting shot on the streets?<span id='postcolor'>

Wait just a second here, in one post you say the cities are secure and the fighting is over, in another you claim its too dangerous for people to go out in the streets as they might get shot. What the hell are you trying to say? Pick a stance and quit dancing about the edges of the argument for christ's sake.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ April 14 2003,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo. What have you done? (Going from the TV to the fridge to get a beer does not count.)<span id='postcolor'>

Fuck you Denoir you piece of shit.  I spent my time in Vietnam so don't lecture me with your crap.  Shove that beer up your ass.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It's coming Mr. Spine not comming nor cumming nor cummin.   You're a real nut job aren't you?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I am a nut job.

Fuck you too. That's FUCK,  not fuk, fuc, or fuque.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hear the eating of humble pie as we speak!<span id='postcolor'>

No that's the sound of you eating shit, American shit.

Now Denoir, the almight one that has everyone hear by the balls, I don't ask to be banned, I DEMAND IT!!!

I can no longer read anymore of your socialistist European (you too badgerbaby) bullshit.

You guys have a nice life.

Oh and by the way, did I mention FUCK YOU.<span id='postcolor'>

well, becareful of what you wish for.

bye bye

had fun watching your show

[Schoeler 0]

LOL, Ralph, you should have let him keep posting. That would have really pissed him off.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 14 2003,05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">LOL, Ralph, you should have let him keep posting.  That would have really pissed him off.<span id='postcolor'>

i'm not that evil

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 14 2003,05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, if can manage to get an Iraqi regime functioning soon and make the people happy, then the terrorism threat, at least from the Iraqis will evaporate.  Happy, fed, voting people don't have murder in their eyes (even though most of you think we Americans do!.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think it's that simple though. Japan and Germany "only" lost a war that lasted 5 years. Iraq and the other middle eastern nations have been well and truly fucked the last hundred years or so.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, if we keep fucking up the "winning the peace" part of this mission, I do expect the body count to go up on both sides, and for no good reason too.<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the U.S.'s only experience with post-war occupation came from policing good German burghers, and polite, rule oriented Japanese people.  I think CentCom based its peace plan on a much much more previous war.<span id='postcolor'>

Clash of cultures are always exciting - norwegians and swedes on holiday in Spain are infamous for bad behaviour and serious drinking  

[bn880 5]

0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ April 13 2003,230)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo. What have you done? (Going from the TV to the fridge to get a beer does not count.)<span id='postcolor'>

**** you Denoir you piece of shit. I spent my time in Vietnam so don't lecture me with your crap. Shove that beer up your ass.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It's coming Mr. Spine not comming nor cumming nor cummin. You're a real nut job aren't you?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I am a nut job.

**** you too. That's ****, not fuk, fuc, or fuque.<span id='postcolor'>

Come on, pay me a visit I'll teach you a thing or two about spines. Even after sitting at the computer for 3 years I'll teach you well. ah, he's gone

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 14 2003,06:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 14 2003,05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, if can manage to get an Iraqi regime functioning soon and make the people happy, then the terrorism threat, at least from the Iraqis will evaporate.  Happy, fed, voting people don't have murder in their eyes (even though most of you think we Americans do!.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think it's that simple though. Japan and Germany "only" lost a war that lasted 5 years. Iraq and the other middle eastern nations have been well and truly fucked the last hundred years or so.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But, if we keep fucking up the "winning the peace" part of this mission, I do expect the body count to go up on both sides, and for no good reason too.<span id='postcolor'>

Agreed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the U.S.'s only experience with post-war occupation came from policing good German burghers, and polite, rule oriented Japanese people.  I think CentCom based its peace plan on a much much more previous war.<span id='postcolor'>

Clash of cultures are always exciting - norwegians and swedes on holiday in Spain are infamous for bad behaviour and serious drinking  <span id='postcolor'>

I experienced some of this in the Navy. Its amazing how easy it is to insult the crap out of someone from another culture without meaning to at all. I have a hilarious story about this I'll have to type up sometime.

[Schoeler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 14 2003,06:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 14 2003,05:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, if can manage to get an Iraqi regime functioning soon and make the people happy, then the terrorism threat, at least from the Iraqis will evaporate.  Happy, fed, voting people don't have murder in their eyes (even though most of you think we Americans do!.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think it's that simple though. Japan and Germany "only" lost a war that lasted 5 years. Iraq and the other middle eastern nations have been well and truly fucked the last hundred years or so.<span id='postcolor'>

I wonder if this won't work to Coalition advantage though. It kind of like the principle of hiring a new employee with absolutely no experience. You get to teach him how to do things exactly the way you want them done. When hiring an experienced employee, you get all of their bad habits too.

Its a bad analogy I know, but its the only one I could come up with on the spur of the moment.

I just think that if the Iraqis get a taste of what a real, modern, funtioning government is like, they might be overwhelmed by it, and hopefully really happy and free for the first time in far too long.

[Schoeler 0]

Incidently, Denoir, I voted no on your Syria poll.  There is absolutely no reason to suspect that things can't be worked out diplomatically with the Syrians.  Its a bit scary that nearly 25% of respondents would support a war at this point in time.

If the U.N. deems Syria a terrorist state and decides they should not have WMD, then I would support airstrikes on key locations to destroy those weapons if Syria refused to comply with U.N. demands.

[OxPecker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ April 14 2003,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now Denoir, the almight one that has everyone hear by the balls, I don't ask to be banned, I DEMAND IT!!!

I can no longer read anymore of your socialistist European (you too badgerbaby) bullshit.

You guys have a nice life.

Oh and by the way, did I mention FUCK YOU.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I'm opposed to the war and American imperialism in general, and guess what? I'm not Euopean!

Don't make the mistake of thinking the only source of antipathy towards American foreign policy comes from Europe - most of the rest of the world can't stomach it either.

[OxPecker 0]

Oh, and I'll reiterate my points again for those who can't seem to understand -

Saddam out = good

Conflict over = good

America starting a war of aggression without UN approval = bad

America unable to back up claims of WMD = bad

Avoidable Iraqi civvy casualties = bad

Coalition troops killed by US friendly fire = bad

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Schoeler @ April 14 2003,06:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Incidently, Denoir, I voted no on your Syria poll.  There is absolutely no reason to suspect that things can't be worked out diplomatically with the Syrians.  Its a bit scary that nearly 25% of respondents would support a war at this point in time.<span id='postcolor'>

30% now And a large majority of our members are Europeans so it's very possible that over 50% of the Americans would support it at this time. It's indeed scary.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I said no as well on the Syrians poll. Want to talk about an Arab backlash lol, we ain't seen nothing yet. Attacking Syria would be the foreign policy equivalent of shooting yourself in the foot... with a shotgun. We're talking irreparable damage.

edit: removed 'nearly'

[Longinius 1]

"There is no more fighting? What rock are you hiding under?"

Last i heard, there was no fighting in Basra. Which is a liberated city. Or am I wrong? I didnt say the war was over. I said there was no fighting in some of the liberated cities.

"Wait just a second here, in one post you say the cities are secure and the fighting is over, in another you claim its too dangerous for people to go out in the streets as they might get shot. What the hell are you trying to say? Pick a stance and quit dancing about the edges of the argument for christ's sake."

I have taken a stance. The reason they risk getting shot in the streets are...

1. There is no law and order.

2. American soldiers are shooting at militia men trying to uphold anything even ressembling order.

And to explain it so you might understand: The war is over in some liberated cities, but there is no law and order because the coalition dont give a damn about protecting the people. Hospitals have no guards, no water and no electricity. We have all ready seen that they managed to let the museum in Bahgdad get looted. UN compounds, banks and civic administration buildings have been looted. The prisons have simply been opened up, letting EVERYONE out (yes, there were actually real criminals in Iraq too, like rapists, murderers and thieves. They now roam the streets freely, since there is no police).

My stance is that while its good that Saddam is gone, its fucked up that the coalition wont protect the civilians.

"Incidently, Denoir, I voted no on your Syria poll. There is absolutely no reason to suspect that things can't be worked out diplomatically with the Syrians."

Yes there is actually, because Bush is leading this charge as well...

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OxPecker @ April 14 2003,06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, and I'll reiterate my points again for those who can't seem to understand -

Saddam out = good

Conflict over = good

America starting a war of aggression without UN approval = bad

America unable to back up claims of WMD = bad

Avoidable Iraqi civvy casualties = bad

Coalition troops killed by US friendly fire = bad<span id='postcolor'>

That sums it up nicely. I stick to it too.

[PFC Mongoose 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (OxPecker @ April 14 2003,06:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Avoidable Iraqi civvy casualties = bad<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, that is bad, and you all know how I feel about the loss of human life by now; but come on.

1000 civilian deaths is horrendous, but in comparison to almost every previous modern war, it's almost not even a figure.

I'm not defending the deaths, and I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I'm just saying.

[FallenPaladin 0]

"Out of interest: Would you support a war on Syria if USA provided same type of evidence against it as it provided in the Iraq case?" - Denoir

I like that sentence, the last part is just great. Evidence like in the Iraq case which were: CIA intelligence which made the inspectors curse on the CIA, nice handmade Powerpoint presentations (I liked the part with the WMD facilities in moving trucks or little airplanes the most) , satellite pictures you couldn`t recognize shit on it (could`ve been taken in any desert country and show anything) with nice re marks on it and written summaries of phonecalls between Iraqi officers... If Monty Phyton came up with such evidence in a joke it would be hilarous, but if a government does so it`s just scary. I could`ve brought such evidence.

Whaaaaat, they already attacked Iraq??!? Errrrm... sorry, ignore my post...

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ April 14 2003,05:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I spent my time in Vietnam so don't lecture me with your crap.  Shove that beer up your ass.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, he was in 'nam keeping the gooks safe from commies. "Watch out for Charlies in the trees..."

[-Siegfried- 0]

0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ April 14 2003,050)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo. What have you done? (Going from the TV to the fridge to get a beer does not count.)<span id='postcolor'>

Fuck you Denoir you piece of shit.  I spent my time in Vietnam so don't lecture me with your crap.  Shove that beer up your ass.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It's coming Mr. Spine not comming nor cumming nor cummin.   You're a real nut job aren't you?

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, I am a nut job.

Fuck you too. That's FUCK,  not fuk, fuc, or fuque.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hear the eating of humble pie as we speak!<span id='postcolor'>

No that's the sound of you eating shit, American shit.

Now Denoir, the almight one that has everyone hear by the balls, I don't ask to be banned, I DEMAND IT!!!

I can no longer read anymore of your socialistist European (you too badgerbaby) bullshit.

You guys have a nice life.

Oh and by the way, did I mention FUCK YOU.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, I think you have now shown your true face, SirLoin. If you cannot express your view without resorting to insults (in this case of the lowest category) that shows that you don't really have any good reasons to support the points you made. This forum will be a better place without people like you.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 12 2003,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">George Bush has accused Syria of having chemical weapons.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Asked if Syria could face military action, he said: "They just need to cooperate."

<span id='postcolor'>

Now this is disturbing...Talk about pre-emptive strikes  <span id='postcolor'>

Hahah, i fucking knew it!

Muhahahahaaa, what did i say? I said that good ol' Bush who likes to do dumb shit probable can't wait to bomb the next country! And what did he say: I can't wait to bomb the next country, god bless america!

Will this guy ever change? I don't fucking think so, he really is out of his mind... If he gets re elected i'll fly to america and shoot that man myself, he's waaaay too dangerous.

No seriously, i'm getting enough of this man, this clearly proves that all he wants is war.

But why does he do it? When are the next elections? Maybe he's trying to gain popularity, is that possible?

[bogo 0]

Are you ready for WWIII cause i am not

( Bogo takes his Rambo clothes on digs a fox hole in his garden and he waits for WWIII )

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 13 2003,21:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo.<span id='postcolor'>

*chuckle*

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ April 14 2003,07:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (turms @ April 12 2003,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">George Bush has accused Syria of having chemical weapons.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Asked if Syria could face military action, he said: "They just need to cooperate."

<span id='postcolor'>

Now this is disturbing...Talk about pre-emptive strikes  <span id='postcolor'>

Hahah, i fucking knew it!

Muhahahahaaa, what did i say?  I said that good ol' Bush who likes to do dumb shit probable can't wait to bomb the next country!  And what did he say:  I can't wait to bomb the next country, god bless america!

Will this guy ever change?  I don't fucking think so, he really is out of his mind...  If he gets re elected i'll fly to america and shoot that man myself, he's waaaay too dangerous.

No seriously, i'm getting enough of this man, this clearly proves that all he wants is war.

But why does he do it?  When are the next elections?  Maybe he's trying to gain popularity, is that possible?<span id='postcolor'>

I think you're the loon.  Moved on up to threatening assassination now?

BTW, a war on Syria will never happen because 90% of the people who supported taking down the Iraqi regime do not believe moving onto other countries in the region - myself included.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 14 2003,14:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 13 2003,21:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've done my part in Kosovo.<span id='postcolor'>

*chuckle*

occupying Kosovo? Keystone cop operation over there. hehe<span id='postcolor'>

Not really for my part but in general yes. And it takes a lot more skill then to blow stuff up (as evident in Iraq).

The difference between "cop work" and peace keeping is that the people you are separating are armed with ak's, RPGs, mortars and on occasion tanks and artillery. They are unlike common criminals fighting for a cause and are usually highly motivated and willing to die for their cause.

While I have done very little real peace keeping (apart from helping out from time to time), I have the uttermost respect for the people that do it.

My original service in the military was as a combat diver and I can tell you that the standard operations there (recon, light amphibious assault, placing mines, infliltration & sabotage etc etc) are nothing compared to what the peace keepers have to handle. They do not only have to have excellent military skills but have to have a deep understanding of the conflict and a lot of psychological knowledge. They are most often in a messy situation where there are no good guys and no bad guys and the loyalties change by the day. Between that you have civilians to worry about who are more often then not hostile to you.

US military does unfortunately not have capable peace keeping forces. You send B-units and they end up locking themselves down in their bases doing nothing (well, apart from providing logistics and a good motor pool).

So, I'm not surprised that you have such low regard for peace keepers. Everybody who has worked with US peace keepers has low regard for them. They are second rate units and are not given any demanding tasks.