Bush and the environment

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 19 2002,19:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think Americans need to use more fuel efficient cars. And yes, some companys (I think Mazda?) are coming out with cars that use batterys for the unefficient gears and a fuel motor for the more efficient gears.<span id='postcolor'>

Toyota Prius is a superb polluter (low emissions)

SUV's..... , I made up my mind about the matter a long time ago: (and that's just in Canada).

SUV and Pickup/Van owners should be taxed heavily, pay more for plates, insurance and everything else. That is unless they are a contractor or can otherwise prove they work with the vehicle.

I pass SUV's in my sedan in the worst of weather here in Canada, and then I outbreak them. There is no need to have one to get around the city. Anyway, most regular cars are way too big also, SUV's are urban tanks. When there is an HMMWV driving around the City here I barely notice it because it's surrounded by similar sized vehicles, towering above me.

Also, worst drivers here are in SUV's and Pickups... really pathetic illogical behaviour on the road.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I live in a city too. Im using my bicycle every day to get to work and uni. Thats 16 km every day. Big deal.

<span id='postcolor'>

Even in Winter? @ -20C?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Use another way of transport such as buss or train <span id='postcolor'>

No trains available. Intercity busses are non-existent here, or are meant for travellers, not daily commuters, so the price tends to be high.

Driving a car is more economical here.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that your county or country is so large that there is no point in taking actions to reduce pollution? <span id='postcolor'>

Quote the statement in my post where I said that, or stop putting words in my mouth. (or letters on my screen, whatever) Not county, province. You obviously don't have them in the Socialist Rep. of Norway.

When small towns are hundreds of km's apart, things like commuter trains and busses don't exist. A car or truck is the only option and I doubt a tiny little hybrid car would be able to cut it on roads that are rarely plowed in the winter time.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No offence but you Euro's seem to be bitching and whining about somthing that you don't really understand......Does anyone here from Europe have a realistic solution for N/A's energy use? <span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.

Tyler

[bn880 5]

I'll tell you what I understand, Canada needs to have a serious look at ratifying Kyoto, and it is.

Yes it's going to cost some companies their $$$.

It is not free, it is not convenient, but there must be action. We must stare down the opposition that only cares about money and huge companies, for the sake of sanity (well the environment).

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 20 2002,03:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Motorway tolls are very unpopular but could be used in a way that would encourage people to travel together instead of one person - one car. Double the toll on the people driving alone in a car.<span id='postcolor'>

we have toll roads in Southern California already. Not to mention numerous highways that encourage ride sharing. one step at a time.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dump the ticket prices on trains and busses.<span id='postcolor'>

it's called WTO lawsuit coming. any gov't subsidy is now deemed as favorable treatment to an industry, which will be open invitation for WTO lawsuits. Most transportation subsidies are handled through gov't bonds here, and there is limit to it sooner or later. however, we can't ask for more money on public transportation since that would be subsidy to certain companies(yes, we do have private transportation companies here in US)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Reduce taxes on electric and hybrid cars. In Norway the electric cars are free of taxes when purchased and there is no motorway tolls either. For most people these cars would work perfectly well in urban areas, but as allways the lack of prestige of owning one makes people have second choice about buying one.<span id='postcolor'>

in US, owning an electrical auto gives you great advantage, parking sopts that gives you free charging AND closest to the buildings. just about every local gov't has at least one recharging station. but those electrical autos do have problem. they can't go far with current tech. so hybrids should be the next step and for some fun fact, I heard in Hollywood, owning the Toyota Hybrid is a measure of prestige since that means 'I have money left over to spend on overpriced car at the moment ' Cameron Diaz has one, I heard(damn Yoda....)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On a larger scale one could implement wind- and wave-generated electricity, solar powerplants, hydrogen fuelcells etc.<span id='postcolor'>

yup. however, technology needs more funding to be effectively studied. it's not like we can have answer right now, but we can start funding more.

[brgnorway 0]

1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Nov. 20 2002,051)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Even in Winter? @ -20C?

<span id='postcolor'>

Most of the time yes, but if the weather is too bad I'll just take the buss.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No trains available. Intercity busses are non-existent here, or are meant for travellers, not daily commuters, so the price tends to be high.

<span id='postcolor'>

too bad if there is no other option.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not county, province. You obviously don't have them in the Socialist Rep. of Norway. <span id='postcolor'>

But you see.....Norway is a monarchy and monarchies have counties - even if they have socialist governments (we haven't by the way).  

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Nov. 20 2002,05:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll tell you what I understand, Canada needs to have a serious look at ratifying Kyoto, and it is.  

Yes it's going to cost some companies their $$$.

It is not free, it is not convenient, but there must be action.  We must stare down the opposition that only cares about money and huge companies, for the sake of sanity (well the environment).

<span id='postcolor'>

You sound just like a politican: Full of hot air and no real information.

I would like to know just what Kyoto would do to help the environment and what it would do to industry in Canada. Big industry isn't only about money, it's about jobs too.

I'm hearing all this talk about 'Kyoto' this and 'Kyoto' that, but I have yet to see anything informative from a Canadian perspective. Government stonewalling perhaps?

I bet the Liberals want to ratify this thing to keep the tree-huggers happy, hey, it means more votes for them.

Tyler

[ralphwiggum 6]

Canada had industry other than tourism?

i'm sure you could find some economics article about it. i mean Canada has economists too, right?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Nov. 20 2002,10:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Canada had industry other than tourism?<span id='postcolor'>

Canada has a tourism industry!?!?!?

Oh yeah, that whole niagra falls thing. What a jip.

[Othin 0]

I think alot of the problem with mass transportation in the United States lies in the fact that the Government hasn't had a consistent policy with regards to it. Take for Amtrak for instance. This is a company that has mismanaged a monopoly so much that most Americans are hesitant to ride it. I think that the Government needs to stop subsidizing and propping up that tottering company in favor of giving grants to private companies that offer a faster, cheaper, safer method.

One of the problems is that the infrastructure is so old that they would basically starting from scratch. If anyone has ever ridden on Amtrak cross country you'll have seen that it tends to travel through destroyed neighborhoods, ancient thruways (no place to expand to another track, or a different gauge) and the back side of industrial areas.

We've actually gone backwards in the amount of used track here in the States. In New Hampshire, where I grew up, there were miles and miles of abandoned track because the money just wasn't there. They've actually started reopening some of them though as people discover new uses like foliage tours, ski-trips, and sight seeing.

I guess it is just going to take someone with a vision and two assloads of money to start it up. Once there is a working, viable example, I'm sure others will follow...

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Nov. 19 2002,23:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You sound just like a politican: Full of hot air and no real information.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry about that

why don't you ask David Suzuki or some other dweeb about the details. (I have to pretend I get some rest now, you know, so I can tell everyone I feel great tomorrow. )

[Lazarus_Long 0]

I agree, the mass transit system in the U.S. sucks. I don't see it ever improving much either. It's simply so much easier to jump in your car and drive everywhere you are going since gas is so cheap. I wish I could help out the environment more but it's impossibly impractical.

I think we are slowly heading in the right direction though, even with a Republican government. Even the "Bushies" are realizing that too much pollution is not good for business. American auto makers are making small but significant proccess in building more fuel efficient cars. Communities are getting stricter with local industries in curbing pollution. We're getting there, it may take us a little longer than you Europeans, but we'll get there eventually; hopefully before it's too late.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 19 2002,21:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Nov. 20 2002,10:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Canada had industry other than tourism?<span id='postcolor'>

Canada has a tourism industry!?!?!?

Oh yeah, that whole niagra falls thing.  What a jip.<span id='postcolor'>

Out west we have Baniff, Jasper, the whole west coast. Very popular with Asians, Europeans, even Americans. I grew up in BC where the major industries are Hydro and Forestry. Now I live in Alberta where it's oil, natural gas and agriculture. Canada is a economy based on resources not industry. We export the raw material needed to make everything else. And it is a very vast area. Now with the USSR gone we are the largest country in the world with only 30,000,000 people and 90% of them living within 100km of the boarder with the USA. I live in Calgary where the area of our city is the same as New York, but only 900,000 people live here. That's how spread out it is. It isn't economic to run transit of such a vast area when you don't have the numbers of people to support it. If Kyoto is ratified then a huge amount of jobs will be lost within the sector to meet some artifiical limit. I believe that we should work towards a cleaner environment, but I don't see why my country has to suffer when countries like China, India and Russia don't have the same limits because they are 'developing countries' or whatever.

30 years ago the big scientific scare was global cooling, not warming. I don't believe we fully understand global climate change and how it flows. Were the ice ages caused by man and pollution? I know that pollution is bad for the environment, but it has yet to be proven that it causes 'global warming' or if it's part of a natural cycle. It has been projected that kyoto will have no noticable effects on the environment or global tempurature. It's a political statement through and through and I don't believe it is in the best interest for my country.

COLINMAN

[DarkLight 0]

Just buy a damn bike!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Nov. 19 2002,11:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 19 2002,21:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Nov. 20 2002,10:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Canada had industry other than tourism?<span id='postcolor'>

Canada has a tourism industry!?!?!?

Oh yeah, that whole niagra falls thing.  What a jip.<span id='postcolor'>

Out west we have Baniff, Jasper, the whole west coast. Very popular with Asians, Europeans, even Americans. I grew up in BC where the major industries are Hydro and Forestry. Now I live in Alberta where it's oil, natural gas and agriculture. Canada is a economy based on resources not industry. We export the raw material needed to make everything else. And it is a very vast area. Now with the USSR gone we are the largest country in the world with only 30,000,000 people and 90% of them living within 100km of the boarder with the USA. I live in Calgary where the area of our city is the same as New York, but only 900,000 people live here. That's how spread out it is. It isn't economic to run transit of such a vast area when you don't have the numbers of people to support it. If Kyoto is ratified then a huge amount of jobs will be lost within the sector to meet some artifiical limit. I believe that we should work towards a cleaner environment, but I don't see why my country has to suffer when countries like China, India and Russia don't have the same limits because they are 'developing countries' or whatever.

30 years ago the big scientific scare was global cooling, not warming. I don't believe we fully understand global climate change and how it flows. Were the ice ages caused by man and pollution? I know that pollution is bad for the environment, but it has yet to be proven that it causes 'global warming' or if it's part of a natural cycle. It has been projected that kyoto will have no noticable effects on the environment or global tempurature. It's a political statement through and through and I don't believe it is in the best interest for my country.

COLINMAN<span id='postcolor'>

Hehehe, my name is Jasper

I know that there's a parc called Jasper National Parc in Canada but i didn't know everything that you posted

[PitViper 0]

brgnorway,

Norway could help the environment by stopping its export of oil. so how about it?

[Balschoiw 0]

Dont get offtopic and dont get childish.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Nov. 20 2002,04:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now I live in Alberta where it's oil, natural gas and agriculture.

.

.

.

I live in Calgary where the area of our city is the same as New York, but only 900,000 people live here.

.

.

.

If Kyoto is ratified then a huge amount of jobs will be lost within the sector to meet some artifiical limit. I believe that we should work towards a cleaner environment, but I don't see why my country has to suffer when countries like China, India and Russia don't have the same limits because they are 'developing countries' or whatever.<span id='postcolor'>

Look another guy from Alberta whining... actually there is a debate going on about wether the total number of jobs will be significantly lower if at all as new jobs will be created (which sector is going to lose jobs and which will gain?). You have to look at the entire country not just your back yard. Maybe in Alberta the number of jobs will be lower, but in other provinces it may increase... so... no real economic problem what so ever.

I think Alberta might be an example of a province that has had it too good for too long and wants to help the environment as long as it doesn't cost anything. Like I said, it costs.

You don't see why you should have to suffer? Suffer a little now in your pocket, save alot later on your health. And don't give me any bs please, I know what it's like when the job market shrinks for you. It won't kill you, you just have to adjust.

And anyway, are you working for an oil company or something, seems like everyone in Alberta expects to lose their job or something? One doctor was even fired because he promoted Kyoto in Alberta.

Grow up, stop whining, things never stay the same for ever. This issue reminds me of the smoking ban in public places here, all the businesses whining and crying. (I even had coworkers who owned restaurants). All of them were trying to convince everyone else that it's going to destroy their business, 2nd hand smoke is not harmful etc. etc. And I always told them to be quiet and accept the law because it won't be changed fora few businessmen. Business people tend to completely ignore everything other than $$$$$$. That includes their own health.

[-TU--33ker 0]

the kyoto threaty has to be accepted by all countries! i think there won't be a change if half of the world`s industry is still polluting the environment. and i mean the north american industry! the gouvernements have to make strict laws! otherwise it wouldn't work. gas was much cheaper under the Kohl gouvernement in germany. after Schröder took Kohl`s place, the gouvernment introduced a lot of measures to reduce pollution. since then the region where i live was patched with windmills to produce electricity. their number will grow since all german nuclear power plants will be shut down in the next decades.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Nov. 20 2002,10:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Nov. 20 2002,04:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now I live in Alberta where it's oil, natural gas and agriculture.

.

.

.

I live in Calgary where the area of our city is the same as New York, but only 900,000 people live here.

.

.

.

If Kyoto is ratified then a huge amount of jobs will be lost within the sector to meet some artifiical limit. I believe that we should work towards a cleaner environment, but I don't see why my country has to suffer when countries like China, India and Russia don't have the same limits because they are 'developing countries' or whatever.<span id='postcolor'>

Look another guy from Alberta whining...  actually there is a debate going on about wether the total number of jobs will be significantly lower if at all as new jobs will be created (which sector is going to lose jobs and which will gain?).  You have to look at the entire country not just your back yard.  Maybe in Alberta the number of jobs will be lower, but in other provinces it may increase... so... no real economic problem what so ever.

I think Alberta might be an example of a province that has had it too good for too long and wants to help the environment as long as it doesn't cost anything.  Like I said, it costs.

You don't see why you should have to suffer?  Suffer a little now in your pocket, save alot later on your health.  And don't give me any bs please, I know what it's like when the job market shrinks for you.  It won't kill you, you just have to adjust.

And anyway, are you working for an oil company or something, seems like everyone in Alberta expects to lose their job or something?  One doctor was even fired because he promoted Kyoto in Alberta.

Grow up, stop whining, things never stay the same for ever.   This issue reminds me of the smoking ban in public places here, all the businesses whining and crying. (I even had coworkers who owned restaurants).  All of them were trying to convince everyone else that it's going to destroy their business, 2nd hand smoke is not harmful etc. etc.  And I always told them to be quiet and accept the law because it won't be changed fora few businessmen.  Business people tend to completely ignore everything other than $$$$$$.  That includes their own health.<span id='postcolor'>

You better be from Ontario because Ontario and Alberta are the only 2 provinces that give more than they take in transfer payments etc.

Also the east better wake up and understand that the west is really starting to feel alienated. Hell Chretien didn't even stop in Alberta to campaign because he knows that he has no support in the west. What like 4 liberals were elected west of Ontario and they still maintain power. Ottowa doesn't represent the west and doesn't care. The farmers have been in drought for 4 years and people are losing farms that have been in the business for generations. It took people on their own to transfer hay from the east so that livestock could live this year and the government didn't help out at all. Frankly I don't trust the Liberals and Ottowa to do the best for the country as long as their power base is out of Ontario and Quebec. The problem with Kyoto with Alberta is has shades of the Nation Energy Program from the 70s that decimated the province. Ottowa sucked over 20 billion dollars out of the Alberta economy, destroy many lives and the province never saw any of that money again. That hurts, especially when it seems your province is the only one carrying it's weight. Did you know that the debt level of Alberta is 5 billion? and we have the Heritage Fund that is worth 12 billion. Basically we could be debt free as of tomorrow. That debt will be paid off in 5 years. Ontario is over 110 billion in debt. Why hamstring the one province that is doing well? We have the cleanest coal buring electrical plants in the world. Wind power is on the rise ( the transit trains in Calgary are completely powered by wind power)

Plus the fact that there are plans to reduce green house gasses even more than Kyoto are already in motion, but don't have an artificial time limit set on it.

The fact is that Chretien doesn't care about he country, he cares about his power and he is willing to sacrafice Alberta and the west to maintain that power because he doesn't have to worry about losing none-existant seats in the west. They fact that there is enough population in Ontario and Quebec means that the Liberals can get elected into power and only represent a single region of the country.

That in short is why I'm whining

COLINMAN

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Nov. 20 2002,18:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You better be from Ontario because Ontario and Alberta are the only 2 provinces that give more than they take in transfer payments etc.

<span id='postcolor'>

I'm in Ontario, but it doesn't matter, not enough history in Canada to matter.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hell Chretien didn't even stop in Alberta to campaign because he knows that he has no support in the west. What like 4 liberals were elected west of Ontario and they still maintain power. Ottowa doesn't represent the west and doesn't care. <span id='postcolor'>

Then the West is not in agreement with the East, what are you going to to? Obviously he can't please everyone.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The farmers have been in drought for 4 years and people are losing farms that have been in the business for generations. It took people on their own to transfer hay from the east so that livestock could live this year and the government didn't help out at all. Frankly I don't trust the Liberals and Ottowa to do the best for the country as long as their power base is out of Ontario and Quebec. <span id='postcolor'> The real problem are the US subsidies and the shit low prices that Canadian farmers have to sell their crop at. Sure I think the farmers deserved more help...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ottowa sucked over 20 billion dollars out of the Alberta economy, <span id='postcolor'> I don't really care where money is transferred within Canada, as long as it helps Canada as a whole.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you know that the debt level of Alberta is 5 billion? and we have the Heritage Fund that is worth 12 billion. Basically we could be debt free as of tomorrow. That debt will be paid off in 5 years. Ontario is over 110 billion in debt.<span id='postcolor'>

But so what? If you are doing so well you would be my first target for Kyoto, you can handle alot more then the bankrupt Provinces.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We have the cleanest coal buring electrical plants in the world. Wind power is on the rise ( the transit trains in Calgary are completely powered by wind power)

Plus the fact that there are plans to reduce green house gasses even more than Kyoto are already in motion, but don't have an artificial time limit set on it. <span id='postcolor'> Then I don't see how Kyoto is going to kill you. Obviously you won't have to make any changes.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fact is that Chretien doesn't care about he country, he cares about his power and he is willing to sacrafice Alberta and the west to maintain that power because he doesn't have to worry about losing none-existant seats in the west. They fact that there is enough population in Ontario and Quebec means that the Liberals can get elected into power and only represent a single region of the country.<span id='postcolor'> He cares, he's not a moron. And Ontario+Quebec can elect like that because it's a democracy, and everyones vote is equal. Would you like to have a system like in the US that got pissant Bush elected because of Californian votes counting too much?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That in short is why I'm whining <span id='postcolor'>

Yep, well, it turns out that the better off Canada is the better off all Provinces will be in the long run. Since Alberta is doing great, I don't see why it can't handle a little more stress.

[USMC Sniper 0]

Dayglow: Canada is ABSOLUTELY NOT larger than Russia!!!    I cannot believe people make these mistakes, I mean, my friggin' Grade 6 teacher thought it was! I get agitated because I am of Polish and Russian descent, but still by looking at an atlas you should immediately tell which country is larger!

Russia is NOT a developing country, seriously how old are you, people in my class know better than you! (Thanks to me they do, I love acting all smart in front of a bunch of imbeciles who think Hitler is still Chancellor of Germany! I'm not referring to everyone in my class, just a few.)

[dayglow 2]

Hey buddy, look at the Kyoto agreement. Russia gets a suplus of credits because of the state it's economy is in. Basically they don't have to clean anything up under the way agreement works, but a country like mine who have already spent a ton of money to clean things up gets a heavier penatly. Sorry about the area I was misinformed, we are still second. I thought when all the republics were lost the USSR lost to us in area, but they haven't. Oh yeah I just saw on CNN that 1 out 3 Americans can't point out the Pacific Ocean on a map, and 1 out 10 can't find their country on the map either

bn880, I have no idea what socialistic dream you live in, but penalising a area of a country that is doing well doesn't make sense. We do help out the rest of the country, that's what transfer payments are for. Intersting thing about the farmers you state there, did you know the western farmers are forced to sell their grain to the board, but farmers in the East don't? 10 farmers just got thrown into jail because they sold some grain to a 4H club in Montana for a few hundred dollars because they didn't sell the grain to the wheat board. Why do our farmers have to sell to the wheat board when Ontario and Quebec farmers don't?

For elected representation that's what a 4E Senate is for. 2 Senaters from each province for the second house instead of the patronage position it is now. All I see is waste and poor spending from Ottowa and I don't like it. Like I said we are cleaning up our act, we just don't need some pompise ass grandstanding on the international stage because he want's his 'legacy' and destroying the country at the same time.

COLINMAN

[USMC Sniper 0]

It doesnt really matter, I live in Canada (Toronto region), and many people I know think that after the fall of the USSR that Russia is smaller-like I said, a quick look at a globe will show the tremendous size difference. Still though, just like Canada, most of Russia is unused and jsut a barren wasteland (namely Siberia). This actually goes towards every large country, maybe except the United States. Funny thing is, even though Canada is in the top 10 in the UN living conditions, many people in Canada are homeless and poor. Also, more than 30 percent of Canadians are overweight! That's really sad, but true.

*Goes back to studying for geography test*

*stops studying and watches The Simpsons.*

[Warin 0]

I've avoided commenting in this discussion..but what the hell.

I dont care what it might do to the economy. I think the Kyoto Accords are of vital importance. Industry can whine all it wants, but in the end something has to be done at some point. I have a son... do I look at the world and say 'What the hell...we can just leave it, and the next generation can sort it out!'? I dont think so. I watched an excellent Nature of Things the other night on how industry can study nature, and do things to make production more efficient and environmentally friendly. All that is needed are either the visionaries to do it, or the government to step in and make it mandatory.

And to those who whinge about the thrid world getting off with lesser restrictions, dont forget that the technology to clean up the environment wont be developed in the third world no matter how strict the regulations are. Those techniques and technologies will be developed in the first world and make their way down to the whole world.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Nov. 20 2002,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bn880, I have no idea what socialistic dream you live in, but penalising a area of a country that is doing well doesn't make sense.<span id='postcolor'>

Some sort of personal insult?

It's not penalising... it's about improving the environment. Alberta is industrious and well off, so logically it needs to at least carry it's weight in Kyoto, if it is ratified.

And BTW: Legacy my a** , all of you who think it's about a legacy for Chretien, I'm sure you are wrong. He is just trying his best for all of you... (what a failure eh) And either way, leaving a legacy of success is not a bad thing is it?

Who is destroying a country... stop turning this into a huge crisis just as soon as your town or province is hit economically.

One thing I want to keep clear, I don't think the farmers have a normal situation. It shouldn't be like that.