2 unfinished arguments,knives and body armour

[Renagade 0]

I`ve seeen a few argumentss on both these subjects but they were never resolved.

Over heree the main threeat to cops is being stabbed so they wear vests that look like padded t-shirts so it wqould be logical to assume that other body armour would easily stop a knife becuase they stop bullets too but someone was saying that knives can go through body armour becuase the knife tip and penetrate the the material wheras a bulletss blunter.

anyone got anything else on these arguments?

[Major Fubar 0]

Kevlar armour is design to stop projectiles, but offers little protection against cutting and stabbing weapons.

Armour with solid inserts would certainly be effective against knives, however.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Darwin Award:

According to police in Dahlonega, Ga., ROTC cadet Nick Berrena, 20, was stabbed to death in January by fellow cadet Jeffrey Hoffman, 23, who was trying to prove that a knife could not penetrate the flak vest Berrena was wearing. <span id='postcolor'>

[DarkLight 0]

If you know how bullet proof vests work, you'll know that most knives'll stab through it.

I'd love to explain how they work but i don't think you'll understand cuz my english isn't very good...

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Nov. 09 2002,09:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kevlar armour is design to stop projectiles, but offers little protection against cutting and stabbing weapons.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep. While at the School of Infantry I watched another Marine drive a Ka-bar through both sides of a flak jacket with very little effort.

Semper Fi

[Major Fubar 0]

Here is the latest in high tech anti-knife defence:

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Nov. 09 2002,13:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Here is the latest in high tech anti-knife defence:

<span id='postcolor'>

Battle axe and morning star optional extras

Well they must use a different kind of material on the stab prrof vests that the cops here have but i did find some gloves claiming to be slash proof and made from kevlar

[Maraudeur 0]

Do bullet proof jackets protect from knives and bladed objects ?

-Kevlar => No

-Spectra => Yes

-Others materials => from No to " a little ".

But, BUT, Kevlar and others protect from cuttings, but absolutely not frompoint attacks, no more for syringes, screwdrivers etc.

So commercials for kevlar gloves that protect are half true, half false.

Do people fly away when hitted by bullets ?

No.

If you want I can shoot .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all. And if not wearing vest, the incoming object will give near zero back impulse to the hitted=>penetrated subject.

[ran 0]

maraudeur , what's your profession exactly ?

you're right about the tactical protection materials

[RED 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 09 2002,16:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want I can shoot at you a .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all. And if not wearing vest, the incoming object will give near zero back impulse to the hitted=>penetrated subject.<span id='postcolor'>

I think I will pass on that one thanks

RED

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RED @ Nov. 09 2002,16:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 09 2002,164)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want I can shoot at you a .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all. And if not wearing vest, the incoming object will give near zero back impulse to the hitted=>penetrated subject.<span id='postcolor'>

I think I will pass on that one thanks

RED<span id='postcolor'>

i'm i remember correctly , the GIGN operatives fire on all the new members of their unit wearing a ballistic protection vest with their magnum revolvers as "welcome" sign

[Jinef 2]

People can be chucked backward by bullets but it depends.

Usually a 5.56mm FMJ will go into you and shatter any bones it comes across and then out the other side. But if you had a JHP bullet and it hit a stong bone like your collarbone you would be pushed backwards while your shoulder disintegrated.

But if you think a 12.7mm bullet at point blank range will chuck you back like in the movies you are wrong, you would just get a big hole in you going right through. usually the military uses FMJ bullets that go through severing things and causing more bleeding, but if you loaded a MG with JHP and stitched someone they would proably be 'elevated' for a bit.

[Renagade 0]

Is this the spectra stuff u lot are on about

http://www.firstdefense.com/html/bulletproof_vests.htm ??

Also that site sells ICBMs

[Cloney 0]

E6...

Do you know if the new Interceptor Body Armor stops Bullets/Knifes? Have all units recieved it yet, because I still see pics of Marines wearing the old PASGT vests.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 08 2002,17:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want I can shoot .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmz, I once saw something on TV about a guy that got hit while wearing body armor. He broke one of his ribs when the bullet hit him.

[DarkLight 0]

Go here for information about body armor...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/body-armor.htm

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Renagade @ Nov. 09 2002,07:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Is this the spectra stuff u lot are on about

http://www.firstdefense.com/html/bulletproof_vests.htm ??

Also that site sells ICBMs <span id='postcolor'>

I can't believe they call their product "Bulletproof" -- that's is totally incorrect and misleading. There is no such thing as a bulletproof vest.

Sooner or later they will find themselves on the receiving end of a lawsuit.

[Maraudeur 0]

1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 09 2002,181)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 08 2002,17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want I can shoot .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmz, I once saw something on TV about a guy that got hit while wearing body armor.  He broke one of his ribs when the bullet hit him.   <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Yes it may happen.

That's why for the thinnest vest and/or most flexible materials and in case of encounter with high energy bullets, are the so called but uncorrectly " trauma plates ".

Theyr objective is to dissipate the energy on the largest surface possible, and usually protects where ribs are weak and in front of the heart place, sorry I do not know the english term for " plexus solaire " area.

Another point I forgot, is that the Spectra is more rigid than the kevlar - and do not lose its properties with water and ultra violets rays as the Kevlarn even the latests and specified to increase resistance variants to those elements. You can find vests with 3 different kevlar variations fibers for that reason.

Spectra will give better resistance to multiple impacts and reduce shocks effects. But it is a little more uncomfortabe to wear.

Will try to refind links to serious vests manufacturers and PDF from NIJ for the protection level classes. ( also some different from germany I hope ).

BTW " bullet proof " is a dangerous calling yes !

P.S. Ran : actually, nothing special

[Major Fubar 0]

I guess this means a crossbow firing bolts tipped with razor sharp heads would be quite effective against kevlar...

[Benze 0]

Can someone give me a site comparing the PAGST vest with the new interceptor? I've heard a story about a person grieving in Afghanistan when a motar round landed right next to 4 guys, but they still got up and ran away with only bruises and scratches thanks to the new body armor.

Seems like the USMC/Army is getting better equipment everyday. 3 Years from now...

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Nov. 09 2002,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">E6...

Do you know if the new Interceptor Body Armor stops Bullets/Knifes? Have all units recieved it yet, because I still see pics of Marines wearing the old PASGT vests.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry, don't know. Been out of da grunts for a few years now. I can tell you that my laptop probably wouldn't stop anything, though.  

Semper Fi

[Frizbee 0]

With some body armor, such as many Kevlar Vests, and the 'Spiders Silk' vests made from the thread of the Golden Orb Spider, there is an optional extra of ceramic plates.

The plates are designed to increase the level of protection of the vest, including the threat posed by a stabbing attack. Theoretically, a ceramic plate would help stop a bullet, a knife, and a needle.

That said, if in a job / situation that required you to use body armor, you would have it tailored to suit your specific needs. Spectra provides a higher level of protection, but because it isn't as flexible as Kevlar, often restricts movement.

Kevlar and other materials also allow a vest to be work under a suit without being noticeable - perfect for body guards and dignitaries.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Nov. 09 2002,01:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess this means a crossbow firing bolts tipped with razor sharp heads would be quite effective against kevlar...<span id='postcolor'>

Yes i believe it would be rather effective...

Well, we learned a good lesson today..... always aim for the head....

[MrMilli 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 09 2002,23:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 09 2002,18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Maraudeur @ Nov. 08 2002,17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want I can shoot .44mag or 12gauge at you wearing a bullet proof vest, you'll feel a strong shock that's all.<span id='postcolor'>

Hmz, I once saw something on TV about a guy that got hit while wearing body armor.  He broke one of his ribs when the bullet hit him.   <!--emo&<!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

, sorry I do not know the english term for " plexus solaire " area.<span id='postcolor'>

Solar Plexus

almost exactly the same

Spider silk vests do not exsist.

Impact Energy

if you get shot by a big fat high powered round (7.62x51N) and its stopped by a high protection level bullet proof vest, you are still going to go down because of the impact energy imparted onto the vest. You will get up, and proceed to want to kiss the person who made the vest, but you don't get off scot free, it would hurt, a lot and maybe break a few ribs.

If you are shot with a small fat low powered round (comparitively, its all still enough to ruin your day but .45 ACP) then it will still hurt, cos you've just been shot stupid!

no broken bones if its stopped by the same vest as the 7.62, and you will be able to get back up and return fire without any problems

FYI If you stab someone wearing a bullet proof vest, believing it will stop a knife, you will be arrested for murder/manslaugter, if you shoot someone wearing a stab vest believing it will stop a bullet you will be arrested for murder/manslaughter (depending on how much money you have to spend on representation in court )

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrMilli @ Nov. 09 2002,13:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">FYI If you stab someone wearing a bullet proof vest, believing it will stop a knife, you will be arrested for murder/manslaugter, if you shoot someone wearing a stab vest believing it will stop a bullet you will be arrested for murder/manslaughter (depending on how much money you have to spend on representation in court )<span id='postcolor'>

I have 10 bucks!

[Erex 0]

In few moments when i was wearing body armour i was wearing "diplomatic" ones (as "noncombatant" :-)).

They were white to hide under shirt and filled with Kevlar.

Specialy for the protection against knives, arrows, darts, screwdrivers etc was there added thin titanium alloy "foil" with circular holes. So it looked more like some kind of net.

We tryed to do with one that was "worn-off" (safety period expired) some nasty things. It survived the shooting (i dont know in which protetcion class it was), it survived knife test (usualy slip to side when it hits the titanium), and survived low pover bow, but high power bow and crossbow pased really easy through (i saw a arrow from crossbow almost pass through barrel of sand).

So lesson for all safety involved personnel - watch out for archers