Co-op Campaign: APEX PROTOCOL

[IndeedPete 1038]

Unfortunately your wrong. Firing from vehicles was a free mechanic added in the marksmen DLC. Alongside that dlc was a free showcase that demonstrates this feature. Up untill 2 days ago it could be played by everyone but now out of the blue its behind the marksmen dlc as either a bug or something else. Yes I know it's off topic but it added salt to the womb with the apex campaign

 

It was probably a bug that it was open to everyone. It is clearly playable content that came with Marksmen and according to BI's DLC strategy it rightfully falls behind a paywall. I don't see anything wrong here.

[mistyronin 1181]

Unfortunately your wrong. Firing from vehicles was a free mechanic added in the marksmen DLC. Alongside that dlc was a free showcase that demonstrates this feature. Up untill 2 days ago it could be played by everyone but now out of the blue its behind the marksmen dlc as either a bug or something else. Yes I know it's off topic but it added salt to the womb with the apex campaign

Half wrong, the free mechanic was added in Helicopters DLC: https://arma3.com/dlc/helicopters :D

 

Alongside that dlc was a free showcase that demonstrates this feature.

But you are right, the showcase came with the Marksman DLC (oddly enough).

As IndeedPete commented, the showcases from the DLCs are inside the paywall. It may have been open by mistake tho.

[Stalkermaster2015 60]

It was probably a bug that it was open to everyone. It is clearly playable content that came with Marksmen and according to BI's DLC strategy it rightfully falls behind a paywall. I don't see anything wrong here.

Normally I would agree, but this has been avaliable for well over a year.

Not to mention on the store page for Marksmen it says the Firing from vehicles showcase is apart of the platform update that everyone gets access to not under the dlc part

Taken from the store page under Platform Update

"Supporting Content

End Game Multiplayer Mode - A team-based multiplayer mode, containing experimental gameplay features such as Dynamic Groups, Shared Objectives, and Revive.

Showcase Firing From Vehicles - Experience the Firing From Vehicles feature in an actual combat scenario for both singleplayer and co-operative multiplayer.

VR Training - Three new courses to train up your weapon handling skill-set.

Virtual Garage - Examine and customize the extensive collection of vehicles in Arma 3.

Vests & Face Paints - Three new heavy and grenadier vests designed specifically for improved explosive shielding and ballistic protection. Nine new types of face paint are added to provide maximum concealment. "

Won't really talk too much more about this, but I believe it's a bug in how it's now behind a paywall not being free to everyone before.

[Stalkermaster2015 60]

Half wrong, the free mechanic was added in Helicopters DLC: https://arma3.com/dlc/helicopters :D 

Alrighty you caught me red handed. Give me over to CSAT now!

[blueskunk 0]

i like the coop campaign a lot!

 

very atmospheric amd a neat string of separate tasks tied together within each mission.

 

i also like the spawn-feature. it allows to get back into it with your team rather than having to solo walk for half an hour all by yourself. it's great for pub games.

 

i don't get some of the complaints about the spawn feature, though.

 

if anyone wants to fail the mission when dying, then just start over.

if you can't get a bunch of friends together to play your prefered way don't blame the developers for not satisfying your personal taste.

those who think the campaign is easy maybe aren't playing in veteran mode.

 

again, i dig his coop campaign and i'd love to see more of these in the near future. i find it to be a great showcase of what the arma sandbox can be used for and a great change of pace to the other established game modes.

[djotacon 190]

On the other hand there are casual gamers like djotacon who never really experienced this kind of coop. For them, "coop" means just having some other guys around and maybe talk to them a bit. It's not wrong, just a different perspective.

And it seems as if a majority of players outside this forum (and now even inside) are the same.

 

And?

 

What the point to point me as a casual? casual is only a label to sell and specific game to an audience thats all.

 

You dont know nothing about me and your are trying to create a false idea:

 

"This guy is only a casual, he cant understand the complexity of a realistic way of think of a big clan..."

 

Sorry but no... I play in every way inside Arma 2 and Arma 3. Not only play alone - mostly alone - but inside in the biggest clans in Spain, I make specific training courses for leadership units - showing the benefits of the OODA by example - ...

 

But I understand multiples points of view not only the "clan" ideas and I have that strong beliefs that adding extra parameters to disable respawn to an scenario specially created in that way is a very bad idea.

[djotacon 190]

The store page and media state 1-4 players. So like it been mentioned here a gazillion times, it's not wrong to think of them doing a red harvest esc campaign like they did for Arma 2 which was also a CO-OP campaign that fully allowed Sp which is what is being debated here and over there

 

I was perflectly to play the entire campaing in APEX and I like, but the missions are created like coop scenarios isnt the same experience play a coop scenario alone than with the all the players.

 

And trying to prove your arguments using different games and differents campaings in this debate is a nonsense to me.

[IndeedPete 1038]

[...] I have that strong beliefs that adding extra parameters to disable respawn to an scenario specially created in that way is a very bad idea.

 

Please elaborate on how it is a bad idea to add optional parameters.

[Stalkermaster2015 60]

I was perflectly to play the entire campaing in APEX and I like, but the missions are created like coop scenarios isnt the same experience play a coop scenario alone than with the all the players.

 

And trying to prove your arguments using different games and differents campaings in this debate is a nonsense to me.

How is it nonsense? They said they were doing a co op campaign that can be played 1-4 players. What they have done in the past is exactly what is needed to remedy this situation. Their whole last whole game Arma 2 had everything almost perfect in how it was handled for its CO OP campaigns, color me an idiot for thinking they would do this for this campaign because that's what they have done. What people are arguing is why is this exact campaign completely different to everything they have done in the past and just thrown in the bin for the sake of appealing to the casual audience!

I've played the whole campaign solo, all it needs when played in 1 player (as there is an option on the menu for it!) is to allow for saving instead of respawn and 1-3 Ai buddies to commander to not feel lonely. This way it will re-enact the Co Op scenarios for which the missions were created. Heck the 2nd mission ambush was basically the 3rd mission in the second episode of the East wind campaign!

[djotacon 190]

Please elaborate on how it is a bad idea to add optional parameters.

 

Can you show me a mission designed by you before?

[IndeedPete 1038]

Can you show me a mission designed by you before?

 

All my Arma 3 related work is in my signature. And while SP was always my favourite to work with, I've actually created a customisable CO-OP mission that can be parameterised and played in both SP and MP. But honestly, how is any of this relevant?

[djotacon 190]

How is it nonsense? They said they were doing a co op campaign that can be played 1-4 players. What they have done in the past is exactly what is needed to remedy this situation. Their whole last whole game Arma 2 had everything almost perfect in how it was handled for its CO OP campaigns, color me an idiot for thinking they would do this for this campaign because that's what they have done. What people are arguing is why is this exact campaign completely different to everything they have done in the past and just thrown in the bin for the sake of appealing to the casual audience!

I've played the whole campaign solo, all it needs when played in 1 player (as there is an option on the menu for it!) is to allow for saving instead of respawn and 1-3 Ai buddies to commander to not feel lonely. This way it will re-enact the Co Op scenarios for which the missions were created. Heck the 2nd mission ambush was basically the 3rd mission in the second episode of the East wind campaign!

 

Again and again the same ideas, saying the same dont prove anything. 

 

You dont like the coop campaing playing solo, I like the sp APEX experience but I think is better with the exact people that is desinged for.

 

Adding a save game - to me - broke the spirit of the gameplay.

 

I suggest that you make your own mission exactly as you like but to me the APEX expansion playing as solo or coop is great.

[djotacon 190]

All my Arma 3 related work is in my signature. And while SP was always my favourite to work with, I've actually created a customisable CO-OP mission that can be parameterised and played in both SP and MP. But honestly, how is any of this relevant?

 

Is relevant in the way the mission was created.

 

As I see all your mission dont have multiple spawn points with pre-defined routes to create front-lines and is obivous to me are far, far away from the concept of APEX EXPANSIONS ( with daytime in mind ) and the coop mission is designed to play in every day time or weather condition.

 

To me you dont have an exact idea that you are speaking for.

 

I suggest try a create an assault mission with the same ideas like APEX expansion and after of that remove the multiple spawn points to see the impact in the mission workflow.

[Stalkermaster2015 60]

Again and again the same ideas, saying the same dont prove anything. 

 

You dont like the coop campaing playing solo, I like the sp APEX experience but I think is better with the exact people that is desinged for.

 

Adding a save game - to me - broke the spirit of the gameplay.

 

I suggest that you make your own mission exactly as you like but to me the APEX expansion playing as solo or coop is great.

Firstly, why do you think there is 20+ pages of people arguing over the solo side of the campaign and how it feels like they are shifting towards a different crowd with each thing they do. Why do you think Two different developers have had to come here and defend what they have said?

Please stop being ignorant. For years BI have done Co-Op campaigns in both main games and dlc and their previous work Arma 2 showed that they got it right. Red Harvest was a Co-Op campaign that was for those people, however if one played the Co-Op campaign in singleplayer they had access to saving as well as Ai replacing real players. It was fantastic and while the East Wind didn't do this and only focus on Sp it felt balanced for for many reasons that don't need to be stated.

So here comes another BI Co-Op campaign and for months with little to no info on this campaign it is not unusual to see people thinking of it as being the same untill the devs said otherwise which they didnt.

Have you actually played Apex protocol solo? It isn't balanced for it. Try missions 3 and 7 and maybe 6, in these you can rack up 20-40+ kills by yourself like Rambo, in between that you are constantly dieing and then having to wait 30 seconds before respawning and then running back to pick them off. There is no fun dieing and then having to wait 30 seconds and then go back to the place you died to kill those 5-10 guys the game asks you to take on by your-self and if you die rince and repeat. If I had known the sp experince was gonna be like this then I wouldn't of bothered as this is one of the first times im disapointed with one of their official content considering how great it has always been.

[IndeedPete 1038]

Is relevant in the way the mission was created.

 

As I see all your mission dont have multiple spawn points with pre-defined routes to create front-lines and is obivous to me are far, far away from the concept of APEX EXPANSIONS ( with daytime in mind ) and the coop mission is designed to play in every day time or weather condition.

 

To me you dont have an exact idea that you are speaking for.

 

I suggest try a create an assault mission with the same ideas like APEX expansion and after of that remove the multiple spawn points to see the impact in the mission workflow.

 

oO

 

I'm sorry, I don't get you. Am I not allowed to criticise content I'm passionate about because I didn't try to exactly re-create it yet? Do you build your own car before criticising Volkswagen for Dieselgate? (I'm pretty sure I can dig up some old CO-OP scenario from my hard drive involving the stunningly innovative concept of assaulting something from multiple spawnpoints. If not, give me five minutes to create it...)

 

I get it, you like the campaign. And that is totally fine, feel free to enjoy it as often and with as many stangers as you like. But there's no need to get all fanboy about it. It has its strengths and it has its weaknesses. We're all trying to provide feedback so it can become a more pleasurable experience for everyone. Please don't try to push some whacky argument against something that wouldn't even affect you and your prefered playstyle in any way.

[djotacon 190]

 Its had a following that long due to its realism like roots. Thats why Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon do not. What your talking about can easily be achieved by a simple server setting to Recruit. If im joining the police academy, you dont give me a toy gun with Duck Hunt to get me accustomed to  life on the streets. Silly analogy yes, but Arma is known to be a steeper learning curve than average shooter and anyone wanting to take that step shouldnt require the entire train being lowered to their level just so they can get aboard.

 

 Else, you have frustrated fanbase jump ship  while placating some kid who'll be gone in a few weeks anyone leaving only a empty hull for all

 

Too much drama to me.

 

This is only my opinion about the APEX EXPANSION, is a good idea show the coop gameplay to the players that usually plays alone.

[djotacon 190]

oO

 

I'm sorry, I don't get you. Am I not allowed to criticise content I'm passionate about because I didn't try to exactly re-create it yet? Do you build your own car before criticising Volkswagen for Dieselgate? (I'm pretty sure I can dig up some old CO-OP scenario from my hard drive involving the stunningly innovative concept of assaulting something from multiple spawnpoints. If not, give me five minutes to create it...)

 

I get it, you like the campaign. And that is totally fine, feel free to enjoy it as often and with as many stangers as you like. But there's no need to get all fanboy about it. It has its strengths and it has its weaknesses. We're all trying to provide feedback so it can become a more pleasurable experience for everyone. Please don't try to push some whacky argument against something that wouldn't even affect you and your prefered playstyle in any way.

 

Is only a idea to show by yourself the idea behind the APEX coop scenario but if dont want do this you are free to anything you want.

[mistyronin 1181]

Is only a idea to show by yourself the idea behind the APEX coop scenario but if dont want do this you are free to anything you want.

I think most people understands what the idea behind the APEX coop campaign design choices were (Zipper explained it perfectly), just we don't agree with it, at all. 

As I said before. BI making a coop super-casual campaign for APEX is like Apple trying to sell us that they are the most open source friendly company in the World. It's against its history and logic, which is why players/costumers follow them. 

[jinzor 31]

I'm a younger boy that only play KOTH, WASTELAND and other gametypes. I dont know nothing about coop because I dont wanna be a realistic soldier. I want only play a coop mission. Sadly the mission are very difficult to me or need a lot of pleople to play or I die at the begining and I cant play unless the mission is finish.

 

I don't think you give "younger boys" enough credit in their ability to figure out new game mechanics / concepts by themselves or in facing new challenges. 

 

And like IndeedPete is saying, there's nothing wrong with adding options - this campaign, at the moment, desperately needs extra parameters (e.g. disable spawn) to appeal to an even bigger crowd which includes their core audience, who play the official ArmA content on a regular basis and who actually care about ArmA's content. At the moment, it only caters to those who have no interest in experiencing what ArmA is really about, which I had no desire in supporting until it was revealed to me on the dev branch what I'd be getting. If there are options available to make it more difficult for the more slightly more experienced players or veterans of the series, then everyone will be satisfied.

[MartinFromZeusCommunity 15]

I think if you need to make it easier adding a bunch of respawns is not the way to go. Even for a casual which I was not too many years ago, respawning over and over again as you get raped by AI is not fun. Imagine quake or left 4 dead with that kind of design, it would be annoying every time you died, and the sense of achievement would be completely gone. I felt the same way playing the campaign myself, first 2 mission were awesome since I barely died, but the rest turned into a grind and got progressively duller.

 

If you have to artificially lower the difficulty, I would look into making it easier not to die in the first place, example by making the player able to take 10 shots or something, and maybe not spamming so many enemies at the player it requires milsim level tactics to even out the odds. tho if you did something like that you better damn make they difficulty changeable or veterans shall riot.

 

would also really have helped if that respawn time was not bugged on release, I mean come on notice a bug when its rubbed in your face.

[Alwarren 2767]

nevermind

[DancZer 65]

In some cases when I respawned to a point which was in the forest, my avatar flew up and I died again. This happened only if the respawn point was in the forest.

[djotacon 190]

I think most people understands what the idea behind the APEX coop campaign design choices were (Zipper explained it perfectly), just we don't agree with it, at all. 

As I said before. BI making a coop super-casual campaign for APEX is like Apple trying to sell us that they are the most open source friendly company in the World. It's against its history and logic, which is why players/costumers follow them. 

 

People complaining against APEX COOP because they think is very "casual", 5 maybe 6 people in this thread.

 

People asking options to add mission parameters - IMHO this ruin the APEX experience -, 2 maybe 3.

 

People playing right now APEX: 32 the official servers are full at 23:46 PM.

 

The numbers are clear the APEX expansion is a complete success as it is.

 

Please devs dont ruin this wonderful moment and leave the people play and enjoy freely.

[mistyronin 1181]

People complaining against APEX COOP because they think is very "casual", 5 maybe 6 people in this thread.

 

People asking options to add mission parameters - IMHO this ruin the APEX experience -, 2 maybe 3.

My count is quite different, maybe we use a different accountancy system? 

In any case, although I respect your opinion, other users have the right to have its own too, specially if it's constructive. After all that's the reason of this thread. To give the devs feedback :)

[IndeedPete 1038]

I've played the campaign as well. And I criticise it. What's your point? That people are trying it suddenly renders all criticism invalid? Even if you look at the bloody steam reviews, you'll find a lot of complaints about the campaign. And these are more than "5 maybe 6". It is for many just the weakest part of the expansion. (The rest is fine. Still some quality gaps between different assets but I'm sure they'll fix that post release.)

 

And just take a good look at the people who criticised it this way in this particular thread here. There's guys from CUP, from RHS, from <insert-popular-mod-here>. A lot of the long-term core players and mod creators. Mods and the community are still what drives this game. If, as a developer, you piss off your core gamers, it will probably not go too well. Granted, this is just a part of the playable content from an otherwise great expansion and not anything related to the game mechanics, thus it will probably not drive anyone away from the game.

 

Finally, I still don't quite understand what's your problem with offering more choices to other people. It strengthens the consumer, it strengthens the player, and it doesn't take anything away from you. Quite the opposite, more customisability might actually lead to even more people playing Apex Protocol.