1.54 Fatigue is too Unrealistic

[jone_kone 158]

My opinion on the matter hasn't really changed in the last few days, so I'm going to re-post what I've already said in the dev-fatigue thread:

 

I fully agree with Alwarren's BIS forum post and Dslyecxi's tweet.

 

This new system is a quite strange hybrid between very casual / arcade (no penalty on regular movement) and punishing MilSim (sprinting). Neither target audience is going to be very happy with it as it only partially fulfils each interest group's requirements, while heavily infringing on the desires of the other.

 

I strongly believe that BIS should not start "fixing" things that aren't broken, such as the simplistic old stamina system or the base medical system. They function fine and do their job, if anyone wants more there are dedicated modding teams working hard on it. Please focus your attention on things that are actually rather broken, but much harder to fix: AI driving (especially when it comes to avoiding obstacles, not driving over friendly infantry patrols crossing the road and movement in convoys), AI suppression, AI rate of fire / dispersion, AI coordination of various elements, AI flying (especially landing without manually forcing it via Zeus / Ares).

 

AI behaviour / performance is something that currently even the best of mods had limited success at improving - especially on the scale of larger, organised community game play.

 

 

I´ve now been playing around with the 1.54 in two +120 MP TVT missions and otherwise in the Editor. In my opinion it´s not as bad as people consider it to be. It takes a lot of adapting (counter sway) but it´s managable, and when you get used to not sprinting all the time... it´s ok. Not great by any means, but manageble. However:

 

As many others I´ve been thinking about why BI would go and change something this fundamental in their game when the old system was pretty good as it was. If it´s not broken, why fix it?  

 

When thinking about it the only logical reason I come up with is End-Game (or then it´s just an idea that got into the project plan and somehow was never stopped). BI has been pushing the End-Game playing mode in almost all their posts, and for some time now. I believe they are trying to get their game more into the same market of CS/COD/BF with e-sport type tournaments etc. Markets which surely are more lucrative than making a game as a base for mil-sim:s, life-sim:s etc. mods. End-Game is fast paced and, even though 1.54 penalizes sprinting, now you basically can run forever. The old fatigue system probably didn´t fit that game-style (nobody want´s to watch people catching their breath in some bushes), hence the decision to remove absolute fatigue and keep the pace of End-Game missions up. One other reason that probalby pushed for this adaption of fatigue could also be that it was an an easy fix for AI units with heavy load-outs to be "left behind" .

 

But as many have stated, they should have left the features easily optionable. And as the old fatigue already was moddable, they should rather have concentrated as mentioned on AI and other really big issues. I don´t even want to know how many work hours went into the new stamina/sway that could have been used elsewere.

[seba1976 98]

I don't get why people say they can run forever. You can't run forever. Not unless you won't mind not being able to shoot. In fact you have to stop more often than before. And don't get me wrong here, I hate what they are doing with the weapon sway, even from the get go, but don't say you now can run forever, because well, yes, you're not gonna die or anything, but you're not gonna hit anything either. The problem is the weapon sway. And yes, they had to change the fatigue system to avoid worsening the AI performance.

[OMAC 254]

:) Hotfix RC!

 

Updates

• 14-12-2015: Tweaked: Adjusted the magnitude of weapon sway levels; increased stability in rested and deployed states to provide more benefit for active reduction of weapon sway and to reward tactical gameplay

https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/183855-release-candidate-branch-announcements/#entry2949173

 

(Haven't tried it yet myself)

[twisted 128]

weapon sway is closer to what is expected in dev branch. i find it improved quite a bit and i can jog for a while without incurring excessive sway. this is nice.

 

but sprinting should cause weapon sway. especially when you carry all the freaking things. that's to be expected in arma 3.

 

big issue on the release branch is  - jogging shouldnt cause sway so quickly. THIS is where changes need to happen in my book. And the latest dev branch seems a nice step forward.

 

jogging should be visually linked to stamina bar as it actually slowly depletes stamina. so the amount of sway it creates should be tied to the visual representation on the stamina bar. or else the stamina bar is confusing. and once stamina is all the way down jogging should be slower until you rest a bit.

 

and in latest dev branch i find that supporting weapon against a wall or even better by using a bipod makes the sway instanly less and dissapear faster. Dev branch is going in right direction. Now hope not for a reaction too far in the other way where sway gets removed overly much. It does have a role and value.

[OMAC 254]

jogging should be visually linked to stamina bar as it actually slowly depletes stamina. so the amount of sway it creates should be tied to the visual representation on the stamina bar. or else the stamina bar is confusing. and once stamina is all the way down jogging should be slower until you rest a bit.

 

Very much agreed.

[ratszo 17]

you need to leave your house and see real world. Not everybody here plays real life simulator. And you probably haven't even held a gun in your life since there are people who were soldiers and even they say the sway is retarded.

 

P.S. and after all that said, it does not translate to a game at all. You can not have "realism" on a computer monitor. Kids, get a life, really. You want realism so much - go joing the military. I want some fun in front of computer screen and not try to counter-balance stupid sway everytime I move 5 meters.

===============================================

 

Quite sure I was shooting moose before you were born,

--what, are you twelve?

 

Again, Light infantry finally have a clear advantage in movement.

First time ever in arma.

 

No armor, no tubes, no nap-kit, no worries.

 

If you want to move and shoot like light infantry, be light infantry.

Un-F*** thy self.

 

[JamesTheClarke 40]

I don't get why people say they can run forever.

I think what most people refer to with that statement is summarised quite well by Dslyecxi's reddit replies: a.) and b.)

 

With the old system the character would more gradually slow down, even while jogging, depending on the carry weight and the distance crossed. With the new system that gradual change is almost removed, but now we have to deal with excessive weapon sway - which due to the enormous negative response will most likely be nerfed soon.

 

The comparison to Fallouts "overburden" effect is rather fitting.

[OMAC 254]

With the old system the character would more gradually slow down, even while jogging, depending on the carry weight and the distance crossed. With the new system that gradual change is almost removed, but now we have to deal with excessive weapon sway - which due to the enormous negative response will most likely be nerfed soon.

 

Right on.  It is clear that the Nexus "solution" degraded the game substantially in both of these regards, namely in 1) removing forced walking and gradual slowdown of jogging caused by heavy loadout and fatigue, and 2) exaggerated weapon sway and recoil in almost all situations, rested or not.  Hopefully the new Nexus hotfix will reverse both of these changes, pretty much entirely.  Then the issue will be to solve the question of how (if?) fatigue/stamina affects AI, which is one of the reasons why these changes were implemented. 

 

But the 600 lb gorilla in the room is AI driving.  And don't forget the 250 lb gorilla sitting next to him, namely how to show weapons held by soldiers when riding in vehicles, as it was in Arma 2.  ;)

[Greenfist 1863]

The sway in the current hotfix candidate is pretty great. Maybe too great, as in it's nerfed a lot. (Or I just got used to the old ridiculous one already :) )

With a light rifleman I can't even produce such a sway that it would really matter, at least in crouched or prone position. You can't hold breath for long, but it's enough to hit a target. Feels quite natural now.

 

Deploying the weapon removes the sway almost completely in about 3 seconds, even if you're hauling a 99% load and Navid.

Fortunately, the amount of sway with unsupported heavy weapons is still meaningful if you're exhausted.

 

Binocs and laser designator could use a little more tweaking.

[seba1976 98]

Very nice to hear, really.

[jone_kone 158]

The sway in the current hotfix candidate is pretty great. Maybe too great, as in it's nerfed a lot. (Or I just got used to the old ridiculous one already :) )

With a light rifleman I can't even produce such a sway that it would really matter, at least in crouched or prone position. You can't hold breath for long, but it's enough to hit a target. Feels quite natural now.

 

Deploying the weapon removes the sway almost completely in about 3 seconds, even if you're hauling a 99% load and Navid.

Fortunately, the amount of sway with unsupported heavy weapons is still meaningful if you're exhausted.

 

Binocs and laser designator could use a little more tweaking.

 

Have you tested with even lighter smg:s and carbines? I really hope that if they keep some sway for heavy guns while standing, the shorter and lighter smg:s and carbines should recover much faster and have less sway to begin with. Then there would actually be a reason for using smaller / lighter weapons in CQB.

 

Would test the RC myself but I already once screwed up my computer playing around with different arma versions so I´m not going to take the risk anymore. :)

[Greenfist 1863]

Have you tested with even lighter smg:s and carbines? I really hope that if they keep some sway for heavy guns while standing, the shorter and lighter smg:s and carbines should recover much faster and have less sway to begin with. Then there would actually be a reason for using smaller / lighter weapons in CQB.

 

Would test the RC myself but I already once screwed up my computer playing around with different arma versions so I´m not going to take the risk anymore. :)

The size and weight of the weapon isn't the only factor that determines the sway, the weight of your loadout affects it a lot also. So you will experience quite big sway if you're carrying a launcher and backpack full of explosives with the smg. It sort of simulates the fact that you would be more exhausted with a heavy load than with a lighter one even if the stamina was the same zero on both occasions.

 

With a reasonable weight and an SMG the sway with very minimal.

 

I assume the difference between the normal and carbine versions isn't very big, because there's only about 20% weight difference. But Vermin, for example, weighs 60% less than regular MX.

 

And don't be afraid to try the hotfix. Just put Arma3Test154RC to Steam's beta settings and let it download a small 118MB update. There's still time to provide feedback while they're still working on other critical issues for the fix. We won't get another chance to make a difference anytime soon after the update goes out.

[jone_kone 158]

The size and weight of the weapon isn't the only factor that determines the sway, the weight of your loadout also affects it a lot. So you will experience quite big sway if you're carrying a launcher and backpack full of explosives with the smg. It sort of simulates the fact that you would be more exhausted with a heavy load than with a lighter one even if the stamina is the same zero on both occasions.

 

With a reasonable weight and an SMG the sway with very minimal.

 

I assume the difference between the normal and carbine versions isn't very big, because there's only about 20% weight difference. But Vermin, for example, weighs 60% less than regular MX.

 

 

Thanks for the Info! Maybe I´ll give the RC at try. :)

 

It´s still interesting that, as far as I´ve understood that they haven´t implemented a variable where the weight and center of gravity actually affect sway (fatigued or not). The logical solution would be that you give a gun a parameter of how "noseheavy" the gun that gives it x sway in different positions. Combined with fatigue would induce x+y sway. Having a really front heavy gun (eg. large silencer attached on an ak with a full mag) can make the gun really hard to handle in a standing / run-up stance, but still be fairly managable in a kneeling or prone position. 

 

Adding a parameter like the above would  make the player think about the loadout beyond just weight. A 5.56 bull-pup could be a better choice than a MX as its center of mass is really far back. However the MX would still have a bit more of a punch with the 6.5 mm. A smg or carbine (center of mass further back) would be the choice for room clearing, but obviously has less punch as a drawback.

[KUKA 0]

I agree that the old system was better.  :angry: 

[OMAC 254]

Although I have been too damn busy at work to test the hotfix with regard to sway, I am extremely encouraged by the knowledge that BI is addressing the sway issue.  Thank you, BI!   :D 

 

I'm wondering whether this thread is the best place to post comments about the (critical) hotfix RC.  Could BI or someone else suggest another thread where such comments could be concentrated for easy reading by BI?  Since it involves subjective tweaking of the sway for weapons, binoculars*, and laser designators*, I would think a dedicated thread would be better than the feedback tracker, unless there is already a ticket dedicated to the hotfix sway tweaks (I haven't checked)...

 

(* don't forget to check sway for these, BI!  ;) )

[Greenfist 1863]

I'm wondering whether this thread is the best place to post comments about the (critical) hotfix RC.  Could BI or someone else suggest another thread where such comments could be concentrated for easy reading by BI?  Since it involves subjective tweaking of the sway for weapons, binoculars*, and laser designators*, I would think a dedicated thread would be better than the feedback tracker, unless there is already a ticket dedicated to the hotfix sway tweaks (I haven't checked)...

Here's the thread for RC feedback:

https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/183856-release-candidate-branch-discussion/

 

A couple of tickets:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=26855

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=26975

 

There's also a whole ticket category related to this called "Weapon Stabilization"

[OMAC 254]

^ ^ Great.  That RC Discussion thread is rather dead, eh?  Posts regarding the excessive sway are spread all over the place in the A3 General area.  But the good news is that it appears (based on your earlier post here that the hotfix RC improves the sway) that BI has received the community message about the sway LOUD and CLEAR!  :)

 

PS. I voted up for both of those tickets. 

[Greenfist 1863]

The hotfix is already out. :D
 

• Tweaked: Adjusted the magnitude of weapon sway levels; increased stability in rested and deployed states to provide more benefit for active reduction of weapon sway and to reward tactical gameplay
• Tweaked: Optimized weapon sway magnitude and duration of the hold breath penalty. Improved benefits of resting and deployment with regards to weapon sway and weapon recoil.

[Roddis 27]

Oh yes!!! Finally we have the perfect stupid game. 

 

I initially dislike 1.54, but playing until yesterday i had begun to appreciate the sway that restrict a little the run and gun kids and whatelse.

 

I told myself, ok i hate this new movement system, but i like to see less rambo and less navid kids.

 

Now we have come full circle. Run forever and gun without any sense. Where is the monsters? Maybe some giant octopus!!!

 

Oh, but we have to say that after 500 metres of running we have a perfect gasping soldier's sound!!! 

[jone_kone 158]

Haha, and first complaint are in that the new "nerfed"  sway is too steady. :D Tested it quickly and it seems that BI got fed up with all the crying and basically turned off any sway.. Oh well... 

[PiZZADOX 47]

The artifical handicap introduced with 1.54 has nothing to do with "realism". it is that, an atificial handicap. I just this evening shot the 6.5x55 Carl Gustav M96/38 Carbine at the outdoor range with a grouping of 12cm at 50m standing, bad light, light rain, light wind, 4°C in less than 20 seconds....don't even think of doing that in ArmA 3... and I'm just a 42 year old pencil pusher whose active military service time was in the mid 1990's. If the demand is there I'm willing to repeat than with a GoPro attached. The current need to go prone and for resting the rifle all the time to get precision shots at less than 100m is simply bulls**t. When it is easier to do something in real life compared to a game considered a recreational amusement, you can consider that game and feature broken.

 

 

This! I am nowhere near a marksman (save from the US army's rediculously low standards) but i am able to put .308 rounds on target with a big hefty rifle after a 500m rundown. I would love to see a rundown in ArmA 3 with the same effects. The funny thing is that you will probably be able to make some great shots at 400m but act like a mentally challenged sturgeon - kudos if you get that reference - at 100m, which is completely contrary to real world results. I don't even see the appeal of the gameplay element. It doesn't reward sneaking up on someone or making a well planned and supported assault, because your soldiers will have a major handicap as opposed to the enemy infantry running short distances building to building while getting shot all around them. They will be able to make accurate shots when it matters most and you will not. Therefore, sit back, expend more ammo, and never move. It's ww1 all over again.