Greece navigating "uncharted territory"

[mistyronin 1181]

This comes in addition and is still a problem, but improved allegedly with the changes in 2010. But I was talking as an example about the blocking minority right, which has not other country in this "club".

As always you can create your own club. Try to find an alternative. Or accept the conditions of that club.

Or even better, to be independent and not need to be in any club.

We all unfortunately know that life is not fair.

[oxmox 73]

As always you can create your own club. Try to find an alternative. Or accept the conditions of that club.

Or even better, to be independent and not need to be in any club.

We all unfortunately know that life is not fair.

Well, first it is maybe interesting for us average Joe to find out how our world works. So better we just dont talking big.

You can always do this and always that....o really, I have my doubts ? ;)

[mistyronin 1181]

You can always do this and always that....o really, I have my doubts ? ;)

Well we all have limited options of course. ;)

We are free to choose between them, and attend to the consequences. Same happen with states and govs.

But well let's avoid philosophic debates hahaha

[gammadust 12]

and the hard to swollow political stretch starts with...

Varoufakis announces resignation as finance minister

or in his own words:

The referendum of 5th July will stay in history as a unique moment when a small European nation rose up against debt-bondage.

Like all struggles for democratic rights, so too this historic rejection of the Eurogroup’s 25th June ultimatum comes with a large price tag attached. It is, therefore, essential that the great capital bestowed upon our government by the splendid NO vote be invested immediately into a YES to a proper resolution – to an agreement that involves debt restructuring, less austerity, redistribution in favour of the needy, and real reforms.

Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted ‘partners’, for my… ‘absence’ from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the Ministry of Finance today.

I consider it my duty to help Alexis Tsipras exploit, as he sees fit, the capital that the Greek people granted us through yesterday’s referendum.

And I shall wear the creditors’ loathing with pride.

We of the Left know how to act collectively with no care for the privileges of office. I shall support fully Prime Minister Tsipras, the new Minister of Finance, and our government.

The superhuman effort to honour the brave people of Greece, and the famous OXI (NO) that they granted to democrats the world over, is just beginning.

My question now is if Tsipras and the remaining finance team will have the same will and conviction to carry out with the proposals which Varoufakis fought so hard.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Banking system corruption:

It is not just the Greek's, the whole banking system globally engaged in very risky practices bordering criminality, the scandals mount upon each other, and the economic damage to the societies they operate on increased exponentialy. It was precisely the dilution of responsability provided by the financial engineering of the derivatives market that enabled the global paralysis at the level of regulation. The high levels of corruption, both active (private banking level) and the passive (government level), was just the means to an end: remove the existing barriers that societies had raised against such finance lead takeover.

This is in no way directed at you, ProfTournesol, but I still feel the need to emphasize the following point: the argument of (undeniable) corruption must be properly directed, the reason why i engaged in heated discussion previously. It is far too frequent being raised as a "Greek problem", supposedly embedded within "greek culture". Mere logic will not let a whole people as a collective take responsability for a crime which is very precisely defined, agents of this crime are not difuse collectives, they are individuals in key positions both on the public and private sector. I have to qualify as ignorance of a dishonest type pushing this argument the simplistic way the mainstream media has been doing.

Well, i was just pointing at 1854 by a French writter which describes something very similar to what is happening today. So it isn't dishonest nor ignorance to say that the Greek mentality isn't outside the problem. I never said it was the only problem, far from that.

[vilas 477]

Well, i was just pointing at 1854 by a French writter which describes something very similar to what is happening today. So it isn't dishonest nor ignorance to say that the Greek mentality isn't outside the problem. I never said it was the only problem, far from that.

every nation /ethnic group has different culture/mentality, thats why idea to unify Europe such deep as 1 coin, 1 monetary politcs will not work,

politicall correctness forbid to talk about some things, but there are ethnic groups within Europe which for example treat work as dishonor, while for others work/job is primary goal in life,

there are nations for which word given means signing deal and there are ethnic cultures groups which do not care even when signed 100 deals because in their belief deals with other religion people are not valid anyway,

there are nations in which intelectual property is like every other property, there are groups which see theft only when something is stolen from them etc. etc. etc.

people are different, cultures are different - unifying it will never sucseed,

Shengen deal is good, travel without passport, no customs,

but unifying deeply different regions will not work, becaue in one region people work 48 hours a week , in other 30 hours per week in other 20 hours per week demanding to pay twice,

in some societies army and business is important, in other regions only belief and family roots,

unifying EU in all aspects will not work, it needs 5 generations to change people a little,

€ was set to people 2 generations after WW2

[gammadust 12]

We're looking at the problem in different ways, but we're not exacly disagreeing. One could also say "So it isn't dishonest nor ignorance to say that the German mentality isn't outside the problem", singling this or that culture out is what brings disconfort, so i prefer a more conservative approach and look at the concrete corruption cases instead of blanket statements. If i suggested so, i take the correction.

Also, thank you for the link, historic rhymes are usualy useful, i'm reading it now.

[Tonci87 163]

Sounds to me as if Varoufakis was made to resign.

[vilas 477]

As always you can create your own club. Try to find an alternative. Or accept the conditions of that club.

Or even better, to be independent and not need to be in any club.

We all unfortunately know that life is not fair.

once again you ignore or not accept that:

- before one or other treaty "club" had other "dress code", than 5 years later or 10 years later after joining club - club rules and club dres code changed,

- politicians say "it is club with metal music" and when metal heads go inside they hear "yo raps! maybe few ballads of Bon Jovi and later we gonna dance to Makarena and Coco Jumbo and DJ BOBO"

lots of countries joining EU heard "it is what Misy calls Shengen treaty only"

we in eastern europe heard "union keeping tradition, independent countries, no-custom zone, no-border travel zone"

it is not that i am 100% against EU, but lots of people were cheated and they expected other things, because politicians said opposite thinngs

for example all politicians im my county said that EU doesn't touch values apart from economy (which means they had said that EU != culture union but only economical union)

in case of Greece, they joined decades ago other union, and of course i only refer to what you say, not to Greece at the moment

they were cheating to be in € as my gov also cheats (over 70 % is against € here and in voting if there would be referendum we would vote agains €)

Greece of course cheated banks, but banks were no saint too

and in my "rape woman" example by woman i meant Greece, not banks of course

we need law that prevents banks from cheating

192% loans are not acceptable

Edited July 6, 2015 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

once again you ignore or not accept that

It's good that you talk about ignorance.

The principles and ideals of the UE have been the same for dozens of years.

And I understand that the Polish politicians sold you a partial picture, and you thought you were only for Schengen and ignore the whole pack.

But you don't have to worry, even if the rules of the club change. Because Polish can exit the EU whenever they want, they just need a majority like in UK.

So yeah my words were correct and apply to this situation.

- - -

The one that took the decision to take the debts using the Greek and EU population as collateral were the Greek Govs, not the banks.

On the banks, the solution is simple. Do like the US did in 2008. Allow the little ones to fail and save the big ones but under certain conditions and with certain restrictions. Not for free.

Meaning if the EU citizens give certain millions to save banks, they should receive the same with interests in the future.

every nation /ethnic group has different culture/mentality, thats why idea to unify Europe such deep as 1 coin, 1 monetary politcs will not work

You are partially right, but at this point Europe is 1 coin 28 monetary policies... which is even crazier (which is one of the reasons of the EU debt crisis)

If it had been 1 coin and 1 monetary / fiscal politics it would have worked way better.

The EU means, and have always meant to lose part of your sovereignty to a "super-state" or "confederal Gov" in order to avoid wars between member states but keeping the internal differences. A good example is the US, which is kind of the goal that a lot of EU founders look at. Having a common foreign affairs & trade policies (that's why the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy), even some common etc.

The idea is that the EU towards the exterior is a single entity, hence it can get better deals.

There's even the idea of a common defense and border guard that it has been "lately" been talked a lot.

(EU Observer, 2002) Commission proposes common border guard

(Frontex, 2008) COMMON TRAINING STANDARDS FOR THE EU BORDER GUARD SERVICES

(EurActiv, 2014) France campaigns for EU border guards

(The Guardian, 2015) Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army

(The Wall Street Journal, 2015) German Defense Minister Supports Calls for EU Army

Edited July 6, 2015 by MistyRonin

[mistyronin 1181]

Ok, now we all know that the Greek population doesn't want the offer that the EU give to Greece.

(Al Jazeera) Merkel says still no basis for Greek bailout talks

"We still do not have the basis for negotiations" for a new aid programme with the EU's bailout vehicle, the European Stability Mechanism, she told reporters on Tuesday ahead of the summit called in the wake of Greece's "No" vote in a referendum on austerity.

(The Guardian, Opinion) Is Tsipras really looking for a deal with Europe?

“You tell me if there is any other country in Europe where they close the banks for a week and 61% of the people still say no?†This question was posed with immense pride by a schoolteacher as she wandered through the crowds celebrating in central Athens in the early hours of Monday morning. Tired from supporting her husband, laid off from the state broadcaster three years ago and their daughter on a single wage, she was exultant.

Certainly, it is hard to think of any other nation that faced with the collapse of its banks and empty supermarket shelves would place its trust in a 40-year-old with a gift for demagoguery but most of whose promises have proven empty.

Alexis Tsipras came to power in January vowing that he would restore Greece’s dignity and deliver Greeks from the misery of five years of austerity imposed in return for the financial aid the country needed to avoid outright bankruptcy.

After six maddening months, filled with missed deadlines, accusations and rancour, he has failed to do so. His finance minister, Yanis Varoufakis, who took Greece from a primary surplus and anaemic growth into what most economists expect to be at least a 10-15 point recession, has resigned. Tsipras has persuaded voters that a reinvigorated mandate was what he needed to deliver the elusive deal. It is doubtful that even he believes this.

Syriza’s wrestling match with Greece’s creditors has dominated attention to the extent that there has been little examination of what else it has done in office. Much of its manifesto including promises to bring Greece’s oligarchs to heel, end tax evasion among the elite, and lift the minimum wage are nowhere in sight. There was the high-profile arrest of Leonidas Bobolas in April, a construction and media tycoon who was released after paying $1.9m in back taxes. This smacked of the same tokenism that Syriza lambasted previous governments for when former defence minister Akis Tsochatzopoulos was jailed. There has been no discernible effort to bring Greece’s shipowners to book for their meagre contribution to the state.

Edited July 7, 2015 by MistyRonin

[gammadust 12]

@Angela Merkel

[The Nation] 7 July 2015 - Austerity Has Failed: An Open Letter From Thomas Piketty

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The never-ending austerity that Europe is force-feeding the Greek people is simply not working. Now Greece has loudly said no more.

As most of the world knew it would, the financial demands made by Europe have crushed the Greek economy, led to mass unemployment, a collapse of the banking system, made the external debt crisis far worse, with the debt problem escalating to an unpayable 175 percent of GDP. The economy now lies broken with tax receipts nose-diving, output and employment depressed, and businesses starved of capital.

The humanitarian impact has been colossal — 40 percent of children now live in poverty, infant mortality is sky-rocketing and youth unemployment is close to 50 percent. Corruption, tax evasion and bad accounting by previous Greek governments helped create the debt problem. The Greeks have complied with much of German Chancellor Angela Merkel’s call for austerity — cut salaries, cut government spending, slashed pensions, privatized and deregulated, and raised taxes. But in recent years the series of so-called adjustment programs inflicted on the likes of Greece has served only to make a Great Depression the likes of which have been unseen in Europe since 1929-1933. The medicine prescribed by the German Finance Ministry and Brussels has bled the patient, not cured the disease.

Together we urge Chancellor Merkel and the Troika to consider a course correction, to avoid further disaster and enable Greece to remain in the eurozone. Right now, the Greek government is being asked to put a gun to its head and pull the trigger. Sadly, the bullet will not only kill off Greece’s future in Europe. The collateral damage will kill the Eurozone as a beacon of hope, democracy and prosperity, and could lead to far-reaching economic consequences across the world.

In the 1950s, Europe was founded on the forgiveness of past debts, notably Germany’s, which generated a massive contribution to post-war economic growth and peace. Today we need to restructure and reduce Greek debt, give the economy breathing room to recover, and allow Greece to pay off a reduced burden of debt over a long period of time. Now is the time for a humane rethink of the punitive and failed program of austerity of recent years and to agree to a major reduction of Greece’s debts in conjunction with much needed reforms in Greece.

To Chancellor Merkel our message is clear; we urge you to take this vital action of leadership for Greece and Germany, and also for the world. History will remember you for your actions this week. We expect and count on you to provide the bold and generous steps towards Greece that will serve Europe for generations to come.

Sincerely,



Heiner Flassbeck, former State Secretary in the German Federal Ministry of Finance

Thomas Piketty, Professor of Economics at the Paris School of Economics

Jeffrey D. Sachs, Professor of Sustainable Development, Professor of Health Policy and Management, and Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University

Dani Rodrik, Ford Foundation Professor of International Political Economy, Harvard Kennedy School

Simon Wren-Lewis, Professor of Economic Policy, Blavatnik School of Government, University of Oxford

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@Europe

[uSA Today] 7 July 2015 - Europe must back away from Greek austerity cliff: Joseph Stiglitz

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Greek voters have overwhelmingly rejected the conditions Europe had imposed on them. Rightly so.

As I wrote before the referendum, "I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences." Those conditions had led to a 25% decline in gross domestic product, a 28% unemployment rate and a youth unemployment rate almost twice that.

I don't believe Europe's leaders were seeking to punish Greece. They were just using bad models — evidenced by the enormous gap between what they thought would happen and what did happen. Europe and the International Monetary Fund predicted a fairly quick turnaround. The reality was deepening recession.

And it wasn't because Greece didn't do what it was supposed to; it was because it did. On the all-important macroeconomic front, Greece had the biggest and fastest fiscal consolidation among the advanced European economies in the aftermath of the global financial crisis, ruthlessly cutting back expenditures and raising new revenues.

The Greeks did not do all of the structural reforms that were asked of them. Some they should have done, such as doing a better job of collecting taxes from the rich. Others might make sense when the economy is on the road to recovery — but not now, in the middle of a great depression.

If Greece had done all of them, the situation today would be little if any different in terms of GDP. In fact, more people would be unemployed, and there would have been far more suffering. It is not these "structural impediments" that are holding Greece back. After all, without any of these reforms, Greece grew at a faster rate than the European Union beginning in the mid-1990s until the global crisis (4.0% vs. 2.6%).

The ball is now in the court of European leaders. The question is, will they stick with a policy that has proved a disaster? Or will they combine a desire to preserve the euro, with good economic policies, and a respect of democracy? Can they reform the reform package sufficiently?

This is the moment to stand up against unthinking austerity. Four years ago, as the first signs of the failure of this policy emerged, Europe's leaders recognized that what was needed was a growth strategy. They promised Greece that. They didn't deliver. There was just more of the same.

Eventually, some of Greece's debt was restructured. But it was too little and not done well. When the crisis began, Greece's debt was about 117% of its GDP . Today, after restructuring, after a program allegedly designed to increase the sustainability of debt, it stands at 177%.

Though the conditions Europe imposed on Greece caused its depression, Greece saw little of this money — about 90% went to the creditors, including German and French banks.

This is typical: Most bailouts (for instance, the Mexican bailout) are not bailouts of the country but of the Western banks who didn't do adequate due diligence. It could be nice that the German and other European governments bailed out their banks (though whether that is good policy is another matter); but the Greeks rightly asked, why it should be done so much on their backs.

Now, even the IMF is calling for deep debt restructuring. There are many ways this can be done: lengthening the time over which loans have to be paid back, lowering interest rates, or even writing off some of the debt or converting some of the debt into GDP-linked bonds, which would pay more if Greece recovered. This would align the interests of Greece and its creditors in getting a quick return to growth. Supposedly, the IMF report detailing the need for this was suppressed by Europe: Europe's leaders didn't want an open and full discussion of what would work. Some wanted regime change — to get rid of the government that had been elected to end the devastating austerity.

An agreement that would keep Greece in the eurozone is clearly possible: deep debt restructuring (simply recognizing that money that can't be repaid won't be repaid), more reasonable budget goals, such as a "primary surplus" of 1% — not 3.5% as Europe demanded before Sunday's referendum — and reasonable structural reforms focused on the central issues facing the economy today are the key. I know of no country that has been able to sustain the kind of surplus Europe demands. It is a sure recipe for a continued depression and ever greater economic, social and political chaos.

And the European Central Bank must provide liquidity immediately. What does it mean to be a currency union if the central bank doesn't act as lender of last resort? Not to provide the euros the banks need to pay out to depositors would be tantamount to pushing Greece out of the eurozone.

If Greece's partners in the eurozone continue in the same direction they were on before the crisis, I am afraid the game is over. It will be bad for Greece, bad for Europe, bad for the world economy, including the United States. Even if the euro survives for the moment, it is the beginning of the end. At the next crisis — and there will be more crises — some other country will be forced out. The eurozone was supposed to be not a marriage of convenience, but a new economic and political reality. With Greece's departure, the eurozone will begin to fray. Even those of us who think the euro was a mistake don't want to see this tragic ending.

Joseph E. Stiglitz is a professor at Columbia University, the 2001 recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics and author of The Great Divide: Unequal Societies and What We Can do About Them.

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@All

The overwhelming majority of Greeks and to a lesser extent the remaining european peoples, those not involved in any of the irresponsible banking decisions, have been squeezed out of their precarious conditions of life. They have less and less to loose.

The banks and the distant political class, some times deregulating democracies, other times via proven and criminal corruption, are the ones that profited and gained the most. They have everything to loose.

The ball is definitely on the Troika's court, either they keep on sowing economic chaos or reconsider, come to their senses and give an already very diminished opportunity to avoid the consequent social chaos.

Edited July 7, 2015 by gammadust

[mistyronin 1181]

Tho Tsipras has pushed the situation to the extreme where Greek banks are running out of cash and citizens can't even pay the most basic stuff, seems that the EU has given 5 more days to the Greek Gov to reach an agreement (probably Obama pushed a bit).

Is the Greek Gov gonna present a detailed plan to save the situation, or leave their own population to starve?

(Reuters) Prospects of new Greek rescue rise at euro zone summit

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras won a commitment to seek a last-minute rescue at an emergency euro zone summit on Tuesday, before his country's banks run out of money.

EU leaders will hold a further summit on Sunday to approve a plan to aid Greece if creditor institutions are satisfied in the meantime with a Greek loan application and reform commitments.

"The ball is in Greece's court," Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi said. "Next Sunday the final meeting will take place on Greece ... I am not pessimistic."

(Al Jazeera) Greek banks running out of cash as EU leaders meet

Greece's banks are fast running out of cash, as Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras takes his latest bailout proposal to the country's eurozone creditors, days after Greek voters overwhelmingly rejected Europe's latest bailout offer.

As leaders of the European Union gathered in Brussels on Tuesday, strong words have been directed against Athens, with Latvia's Central Bank governor Ilmars Rimsevics saying Greece has voted itself out of the eurozone after Sunday's referendum.

Meanwhile, Wolfgang Schaeuble, Germany's finance minister, repeated that Berlin opposes an overall cut in Greek debt.

(The Washington Post) Europe gives Greece 5 days to avoid bankruptcy

E.U. leaders expressed anger that Greek officials offered only oral proposals, rather than presenting a detailed written plan to address concerns about the country’s debt crisis.

“The stark reality is that we only have five days to find the ultimate agreement,†said a visibly irritated European Council President Donald Tusk, the former prime minister of Poland. “Until now I have avoided talking about deadlines. But tonight I have to say it loud and clear — the final deadline ends this week.â€

[gammadust 12]

The greek people is ALREADY starving. And it is not because of Tsipras/Syriza, it is because of the Austerity measures!

Subject: Poverty and under-nourishment among Greek schoolchildren

Question to the European Comission (31 March 2015):

According to Prolepsis*, a research institute, around six out of ten Greek schoolchildren who took part in the ‘Nutrition’ programme in 2013-2014 did not have access to food in sufficient quantity. The programme, funded by donations under the auspices of the Ministry of Education, ran in 64 schools. It showed that 25% of families suffered actual hunger, while 60% experienced dietary insufficiency. In 61% of cases, one of the two parents had no income and, in 17% of cases, neither parent had an income. At the same time, a study published by the Greek parliament showed that, in 2013, 6.3 million Greeks were living below the poverty line, or under threat of poverty due to material deprivation or unemployment. Eurostat figures showed that Greece belonged to the group of countries with the highest percentage of poverty (23.1%).

Will the Commission, as a member of the troika, continue to demand budgetary restraints while ignoring, and not responding to, the social consequences?

Answer (18 June 2015):

The policy conditionality of the economic adjustment programme for Greece is not imposed, but agreed with the Greek authorities. The programme pays particular attention to the fight against poverty, and includes measures to improve the Greek social protection system aiming to increase the effectiveness and efficiency of welfare spending and enhance expenditure control, creating for the first time an integrated, cost-effective and modern welfare system.

The creation of a Guaranteed Minimum Income (GMI) scheme aims to provide a comprehensive social welfare benefit based on social assistance and social activation. To ensure proper targeting and fighting poverty traps the GMI is tested on a pilot basis in the municipalities with the objective of a later phased-in roll out. The government launched 13 pilot schemes on 15 November 2014. As of mid-January 2015 about 28 000 applications were filed and about 7 000 beneficiaries paid. The recently approved 2014-2020 European Social Fund OP ‘‘uman Resources Development, Education & Lifelong Learning’’envisages the implementation of activation measures for the beneficiaries of the pilot GMI.

The European Commission is also offering emergency aid through the Fund for European Aid to the Most Deprived, providing food and basic material assistance to the most deprived. Under this programme, Greece is entitled to aid worth EUR 281 million for the period 2014-2020.

*[Keep Talking Greece] 12 Februrary 2015 - Poll: 25% of Athens school children going hungry

[Ansamed] 6 April 2012 - Crisis: Greece, more than 400,000 children hungry

The poverty threshold takes in to consideration the minimum income that a family of four people must earn every month in order to pay for accommodation and basic requirements such as food, transport, clothing and education. Of this fifth of Greek families, 21.6% have a diet that is lacking in animal protein, 37.1% do not have adequate heating in their homes, 27.8% live in damp or excessively dry conditions and 23.3% in what are defined "poor environmental conditions". Although official estimates suggest that 21% of Greeks live in poverty, and therefore have a monthly income below 470 euros per month, the real level has already reached (and perhaps exceeded) 25%, meaning that one in four Greeks is poor. In other words, out of 11.2 million Greeks, 2.8 million do not have enough money with which to live.

---

Compare the approaches taken by Greece vs Iceland and the effects on the population at large...

According to Eurostat the People at risk of poverty or social exclusion (years 2004 - 2014)

Of course, under the European Monetary Union, since the sovereignty on monetary policy has been surrendered by member states, it is the ECB/European Commission that has the statutory responsability to eventually proceed following similar solutions to the crisis as Iceland did. If anything, not accepting austerity measures, Syriza, is avoiding an aggravation of the problem.

Edited July 7, 2015 by gammadust

[mistyronin 1181]

Indeed Syriza is doing the best for the Greeks, focusing on what's important for the starving people. Tsipras cares a lot for the Greek citizens...

The EU asks Tsipras to cut non-essential expenditure like military one and his Gov answers:

(Reuters) Greek government denies planning to cut defence spending

The Greek government said on Wednesday it had no plans to cut defence spending, appearing to contradict a letter sent by Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to creditors a day earlier offering to "reduce the expenditure ceiling for military spending".

Tsipras' office issued a one-sentence statement saying: "There is not, there was not and there will never be a proposal by the Greek government to cut defense spending."

It appeared to be a response to Greek media reports that the junior partner in Tsipras' ruling coalition, led by Defence Minister Panos Kammenos, was angry at the concession made in a last-ditch bid to salvage a bailout deal.

You know it has always been better to pay your top brass a lot than feed your people.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin

[gammadust 12]

as of right now there is 9 10 results for that official "Tsipras' office issued a one-sentence statement" with 6 days.

(follow page 2 - i'm sure our thread will be there too in a matter of hours)

is there any possibility to get a second source?

[mistyronin 1181]

is there any possibility to get a second source?

Well, maybe the Reuters people just made it up... let's see what the Greek newspapers and websites said about that:

(AVGI.gr) "No, nor has there been, nor will be Greek proposal to reduce defense spending"

"There will be absolute disarmament of the country," stressed the Minister of National. Defense and chairman of AN.ELL. II. Glowing, describing the "Red" the impact that would have any cuts in defense spending requested by lenders. P.. Glowing noted that in case of reduction of staff, those who will find themselves on the street will be five, the supervisors, the supervisors.

(Naftemporiki.gr)Government: There will be no proposal to reduce defense spending

There is not, nor has there been, nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending, says a statement of the Press Office of the Prime Minister.

(Capital.gr) "There is a proposal by the government to reduce defense spending"

There is not, nor has there been, nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending, says a statement of the Press Office of the Prime Minister.

(Banking News.gr)"There is, nor has been, nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending," clarifies the Maximos Mansion in the wake of the new letter of Alexis Tsipras to the institutions.

(Defense Net.gr) Denies the Maximos Mansion that the proposals sent by the Greek government included the reduction in defense spending, according to non - paper released by the government.

"There is, nor has been, nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending," he said in a statement the Press Office of the Prime Minister.

(Left.gr) Maximos: There is not, there will be no proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending

"There is, nor has been, nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending," said in a statement the press office of the Prime Minister

(The Toc.gr) "Dear Alexis, I resign." "Dear Panos I take it back"...

Following this episode the PM's office capitulated and edited a non paper, through which it affirmed that there would be no further cuts in defense expenses in any Greek proposal to the EU, while today the Prime Minister will be visiting the National Defense Ministry for further actions.

Here you also have what Tsipras said in a public speech last week:

(Web of the Prime Minister of Greece, in Greek) Statement of Prime Minister A. Tsipras at the Ministry of Defense

The state, despite the difficulties that will overcome with faith in our goal and with unity, it will not delete its obligations to the senior members of the Armed Forces. As everything in our hand, and I personally and the Minister of Defence is not going to accept cuts, reductions are designed to create new inequalities within the society and particularly reductions in remuneration of staff of the Armed Forces.

If you rather watch it:

(NY Times)Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras of Greece said on Thursday there will not be cuts in defense spending despite current financial trouble and urged citizens to “maintain a core of national sovereignty.â€

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras of Greece said on Thursday there will not be cuts in defense spending despite current financial trouble and urged citizens to “maintain a core of national sovereignty.â€

So yes. Tsipras once more lied about reducing military expenditure. In fact as it has already been widely proven his office clearly said: "Δεν υπάÏχει, οÏτε υπήÏξε και οÏτε θα υπάÏξει Ï€Ïόταση από την ελληνική κυβέÏνηση για μείωση των αμυντικών δαπανών"

Translated:

There is not , nor has there been , nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending.

[oxmox 73]

Europe Offered Greece A Deal To Meet Its Obligations By Cutting Military Spending.

The IMF Said No Way.

A Saturday report by the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung reveals

the IMF vetoed a compromise that cut military spending proposed by the European Commission.

European officials involved in the negotiations told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung that the vetoed proposal, put forward by European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker, would have allowed Greece to defer 400 million euros in pension cuts, as long as it cut an equivalent amount from its military budget.

The German newspaper reported that German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Holland had signed off on Juncker’s compromise plan.

If the report is correct,ideology is playing just as much of a role as arithmetic in preventing a resolution. The IMF's refusal to consider a plan that would lessen pension cuts is consistent with its historically neoliberal political philosophy.

The report also belies claims by Greece’s troika of creditors -- the IMF, European Commission and European Central Bank -- that they remain unified in their firm negotiating stance. In addition, it appears to confirm that the IMF is the most hawkish of the three creditor parties.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/15/imf-greece-veto_n_7588594.html

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/spannungen-zwischen-eu-kommission-und-iwf-in-schuldenkrise-13645504.html

Edited July 8, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The report also belies claims by Greece’s troika of creditors -- the IMF, European Commission and European Central Bank -- that they remain unified in their firm negotiating stance. In addition, it appears to confirm that the IMF is the most hawkish of the three creditor parties.

As seen above the Greek Gov few days before the IMF refusal already said that no way. So, doesn't really affect much to the final decision taken by the troika.

On the other hand the fact that the IMF is the most hawkish of the creditors should not be a surprise. It's the one that has less in stake (in quantity and distance), and it's also the less democratically controlled (as I commented a few pages ago).

Both the European Commission and ECB can't take certain measures due to the public pressure. In fact, speaking properly, the creditors are not the EU Commission and the ECB (it was not their money), but the EU population, hence most of us (as it was our money that was borrowed).

[oxmox 73]

The military spending was reduced by around 50% in the last 5 years, from almost 7 billion to 3,3 billion.

Defence Spending will be around 1,8% of the Greece GDP this year, the average for NATO countries is around 1,5%.

Deutschlandfunk - google transl.

Interesting is also to know why Greece has a higher defence spending:

• Greece's military budget reflects a legacy of distrust towards every country it borders, most notably Turkey. Although both Turkey and Greece are members of NATO and are technically allies, the two states have been competing militarily since the Turkish invasion of Cyprus over four decades ago. These tensions cooled considerably but have begun warming again as the two states compete over possible oil and gas resources in the Mediterranean — midair confrontations between Turkish and Greek jets increased sharply in 2014.
  

• And Greece doesn't have particularly friendly relations with its some of its other neighbors either: in 2008, Greece blocked Macedonia's membership in NATO over a long-simmering naming controversy, while Athens has taken a customarily hard line on the resolution of the Cyprus dispute.
  

• The final reason Athens may have been reluctant to cut defense spending is political pressure from Germany and France, the Guardian notes. Berlin sent almost 15% of its arms exports to Greece in 2012, with France sending almost 10% in 2012.
  

In this article NATO projects about Greece defence spending, but iam not using the confusing title this time:

For 2015, NATO projects that Greece will spend 2.4% of its GDP on defense, which is actually a 0.1% increase in spending over 2014. The previous year, the country's debt as percentage of GDP was at 175%, while its economy contracted by 3.3%.

The 2.4% of GDP that Greece is projected to spend on defense in 2015 is actually a sharp decrease from the country's previous spending habits.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/why-greeces-military-budget-is-so-high-2015-6?r=US

Edited July 8, 2015 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The military spending was reduced by around 50% in the last 5 years, from almost 7 billion to 3,3 billion.

Defence Spending will be around 1,8% of the Greece GDP this year, the average for NATO countries is around 1,5%.

Indeed. But 1,8% of their GDP is still an incredibly indecent expenditure, specially in a country deeply immersed in economic troubles, where as Gammadust said rightly, their citizens are starving.

Just compare it with other NATO / EU countries that are in crisis like Spain (0.9% of GDP) or Ireland (0.5%).

Where BTW the Syriza Gov promised to reduce their military expenditure, not only in their electoral program 6 months ago, but a week ago in their offer to the EU.

And as you have seen above, it was all another lie of Tsipras, as his office clearly stated:

There is not , nor has there been , nor will be a proposal from the Greek government to reduce defense spending.

Which BTW shows clearly what Tsipras Gov priorities are, to remain being another corrupt Gov that exploits the Greek Population giving the money to certain corrupted groups like the Army.

(The Guardian) Greece given days to agree bailout deal or face banking collapse and euro exit

Greece has 48 hours to strike a new bailout deal with its eurozone creditors or face a banking collapse, a humanitarian emergency, and the start of an exit from the single currency, European leaders decided on Tuesday evening.

Unless Athens presents convincing details entailing more austerity as the basis for its third bailout in five years, all 28 national EU leaders, not just those of the eurozone, are to gather in Brussels on Sunday in emergency session to discuss how to contain the fallout from Greece’s financial collapse.

“We have a Grexit scenario prepared in detail†said Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European commission.

Edited July 8, 2015 by MistyRonin
Adding piece of news

[vilas 477]

article in one website said "at beginning of "help" saving program to Greece their debt was 100 bln € now it is 330 bln €, so what was it really help or Germany tries to colonialize smaller countries using banks ? calling Greeks lazy is not just because they work many hours, more than others"

it is also suprising quote, cause indeed , in many countries people work 35 hours a week, in some 48 hours a week and ... those second are mainly "less effective according to stats",

i have to check stats how much Greeks spend in jobs and such like data

[mistyronin 1181]

article in one website said "at beginning of "help" saving program to Greece their debt was 100 bln € now it is 330 bln €, so what was it really help or Germany tries to colonialize smaller countries using banks ? calling Greeks lazy is not just because they work many hours, more than others"

it is also suprising quote, cause indeed , in many countries people work 35 hours a week, in some 48 hours a week and ... those second are mainly "less effective according to stats",

i have to check stats how much Greeks spend in jobs and such like data

It's not that simple. There are notorious cultural differences between North and South of Europe (also between West and East).

It's not that Greeks are lazy, but they have a different culture of work. In Germany (mainly all northern Europe) they want to work less hours and produce more, in Greece (or in Italy or in Spain ) is the opposite.

The idea is that certain countries thought that with the EU, the South of Europe would follow the North culture. And that didn't happen. Then Germany and other Northern countries are trying that in exchange of money the Southern countries have to become more close to the North style. But we have to understand that the cause of the debt was the cultural BAD use of resources in the South, not a colonial intent.

IMO with time the differences will be lesser. The North will become "less efficient" and the South will become "more efficient", finding a better balance.

[major_barnes1987 33]

I don't believe a word the people of Syriza are saying.I am from Greece but i don't trust them,i don't trust their way.It's just since they were oposition party they didn't have a decent plan and even if they did they wouldn't share it with the people of this country.How can i believe a man without a plan.I believe Tsipras is a pawn in a bigger political game but i hope i'm wrong,i really do!

The only politician on Greece who has a real plan and he's true and honorable person is Vasilis Leventis of the Centrists United or something,i don't know how they called exactly in english.Unfortunately he's out of parliament.

[vilas 477]

they want to work less hours and produce more, in Greece (or in Italy or in Spain ) is the opposite.

produce more of what ?

because if we measure by $ than guy working as accountant 1 hour in diamond mine is "100 times more effective" than guy who spend whole week farming potatoes, because potatoes cost 0.25 € per kilogram

but in fact second guy worked harder

in case of countries with hightech industry or rare raw materials it is different than in countries with low tech industry - but those second are often called "lazy" by economists from mainstream media, banks etc.