How many missiles is realistic for infantry units?

[joostsidy 685]

I was working with the NATO cargo net crate, considering to clear its contents and fill it with a custom loadout because it contains so many missiles. The unit receiving it can take out a bunch of tank platoons with these and the ones they already have.

There are probably two type of constraint to the number of missiles a squad or platoon has in reality:

- Cost: I read a Javelin costs about $75.000: it seems a bit much to give squads/platoons millions worth of missiles

- Weight and size: I would think they are too heavy and too big to carry a whole bunch of them

I did some research, but was unable to find many details on how many missiles is 'normal' for let's say a platoon or company. I found out that Javelins are carried by a team of two and they seem to carry a missile each besides the launcher and guidance unit.

I'm looking for some rules of thumb on which to base loadouts, a meaningful balance between gameplay and realism.

Edited May 23, 2015 by joostSidy

[ratszo 17]

One round, throw away.

[chow860 17]

Javelins would normally be carried by dedicated heavy weapons units (IE a Weapons Company) so most Infantry units would never have them on patrol. Disposable launchers (LAW 66, AT4's etc) however are much more common and most patrols would have one per squad or fireteam depending on availability and mission requirements.

[romeo16 10]

All fire teams assemble their squads based on expected enemy contact when you don't know what to expect you bring everything you can subtract from that mobility/duration requirements and shift it to QRF designated units that typically have vehicles designated with ammo and med kit resupply capabilities.

Javelins would normally be carried by dedicated heavy weapons units (IE a Weapons Company) so most Infantry units would never have them on patrol. Disposable launchers (LAW 66, AT4's etc) however are much more common and most patrols would have one per squad or fireteam depending on availability and mission requirements.

[joostsidy 685]

Thanks for the info, for gameplay reasons I don't mind representing LAWS etc. as Javelins. I've been cutting AT guys from squads in missions already. I think I'll remove even more :-)

I would be interested in hearing from people who are members of serious MP groups if and how they restrict launchers and/or missiles.

[brightcandle 114]

What we do is carry a single AT4 in a fireteam and we also carry one in our special forces team as well. We don't use Javelins as we don't do dedicated heavy weapons teams. You will find the milsim groups based on specific units will copy that units layout, so they will have dedicated Javelin teams. Our layout is based on these real units without being specific so we can do things like have AT4s in all fireteams where a specific unit wouldn't carry that many. Neitherless its basically 1 throw away launcher for 4-6 men more or less and Javelins are dedicated anti tank teams only.

[thedudeabides 40]

Simple answer. METTC dependent. Units have allotments for basic loads but can request what they need for specific mission requirements. In Iraq we would carry that dumb ass CLU around cause of its optics

[joostsidy 685]

'In Iraq we would carry that dumb ass CLU around cause of its optics'. Haha, I did this in Arma3 as well in missions, keeping the Titan launcher without missile for use of its optics. However, I didn't mind dragging that thing around from the comfort of my desk chair with a cup of coffee. It is nice that an RL detail such as this carries over to Arma.

Even though the simple answer is mission requirement, the thing is that Arma goes a bit overboard easily with the missiles. In one of my missions I have a (custom) squad with a AT launcher (Titan) with 3 missiles. An ammo carrier carries another two. So that's a total of 5 MBT defeating missiles. On the one hand its fun to be able to engage lots of vehicles in a mission but on the other hand armor looses its significance on the battle field too much. I also have a feeling that its not realistic to carry so many missiles around considering size and weight of the things.

I just read up on the Rafael Spike, the supposed inspiration for the Titan. Even though its not clearly stated, it seems that only one tube is used (launcher with missile) and no spare missiles. To simulate this in Arma is a bit weird because the game backpacks allow much room for extra missiles that you then don't use on purpose.

I do like to give my missions a certain consistency, I'm not giving the infantry a ton of missiles if I'm playing infantry and then nerfing them if I play as armor in another mission, so I'm looking for a 'realistic' balance.

[pils 49]

I've read, one ATGM-system (any of the common state of the art systems) makes up a squad of 2-3 men. Besides the ATGM launcher (+ optics, tripod, etc.) they usually carry 2-3 missiles with them.

Just shows how unrealistic Arma 3 here is, with that awful Terminator infantry carrying a .50cal sniper + ammo + ATGM sytem + 3 missiles ...

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

I've read, one ATGM-system (any of the common state of the art systems) makes up a squad of 2-3 men. Besides the ATGM launcher (+ optics, tripod, etc.) they usually carry 2-3 missiles with them.

Just shows how unrealistic Arma 3 here is, with that awful Terminator infantry carrying a .50cal sniper + ammo + ATGM sytem + 3 missiles ...

That "aweful Terminator infantry" would be the first one out of breath after running only a short distance and either causing the entire unit to slow down or loss of unit cohesion as that specific unit falls behind.

[pils 49]

That "aweful Terminator infantry" would be the first one out of breath after running only a short distance and either causing the entire unit to slow down or loss of unit cohesion as that specific unit falls behind.

Yeah, but since many game modes make sure especially infantry has rather short distances they have to walk until they get into the action, that doesn't matter that much. (using various features as transport via chopper, reviving, respawning, teleporting, halo jumping, etc.)

Hell, there are even quite some game modes and servers that have fatigue turned off.

[ratszo 17]

For a 'Heavy weapons' team, there are the static launchers --tripod, launcher in two back-packs.

Four rounds, big weight penalty on the launcher back-pack.

The single infantry loaded with one in the tube and four in the pack is just wrong.

Mission makers ought not to overlook the role of light infantry when deciding on loadouts.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

What pils describes is more commonly pronounced as shit mission design. :)

Edited June 1, 2015 by Imperator_Pete

[eggbeast 3684]

we've worked on this problem too, in A2 though, but same issue.

our mod approach does this:

AT4, RPG18, NLAW, M72 LAW, MRO, RPO are all single use, with rocket taking a single pistol ammo slot. Once fired, the unit has 0.5s to get into cover before they kneel and drop their used tube (cannot reload it even if picked up afterwards)

javelin, CG MAAWS, SMAW, RPG7, M47 Dragon are all reloadable

javelin, M47 Dragon take 4 slots

CG MAAWS, SMAW, take 3 slots (have added thermobaric and smoke rounds)

RPG7 have 6 warhead types inc smoke, frag, thermobaric tandem heat and 3 HEAT calibers which take 1,2 and 3 slots (3 for the TB, T/HEAT).

so when we kit out an enemy squad they may have a lot of RPG7's but they most often have smaller caliber HEAT or frag rounds.

we also mod the configs of every vehicle so many have an AT launcher on board, usually an AT4, but in the MRAPs commonly a javelin. then if we get into trouble someone will drive in with an MRAP and use the onboard jav to support us.

this makes APC type vehicle really bloody useful. and a bit more realism to boot. you dont see any of us tramping about with a big launcher any more as we know we can get one if we need it from a vehicle.

it's a mod approach, but you can also add stuff to cargo when you spawn a vehicle in your mission using a script.

back inthe day when i was briefly in the military we had carl gustavs and milans and no-one carried them about. they took M72's to the falklands and used them against argentinian bunkers. milans were used but they had their own dedicated squad, much like a mortar team.

when Sav and I configged the units for unsung mod, we made special teams of mortar carriers, dshkm/M60 carriers, SPG carriers (with appropriate weapon backpack) who had an assistant with a baseplate/tripod backpack, and a guy with an ammo backpack, which when placed on the ground next to a static, would rearm the launcher. this works pretty well but the AI dont often assemble the kit themselves unfortunately. works well for realism units though.

Edited June 1, 2015 by eggbeast

[kklownboy 43]

In the US Army its a minimum one Jav per "Squad". Four Javs in a Stryker. Not NLAW, or AT4 but Javs. They have AT4s (are like candy), and NLAWS (not as much) too. Marines have the special teams. Army just has them. Do they walk around on patrol in Kandahar with it, not so much... But its is issued one per Squad, and was used(Jav) a whole bunch in Afgan. Like in several hundreds, or more(a thousands+?) Against buildings, emplacements etc.

[-NBR- Magic 13]

It's still a game, so it's not real, seeing as you get shot and 30 seconds later after 10 seconds of treatment you are up and sprinting again.. So carrying a hundred grands worth of missile is ok with me..

[eggbeast 3684]

im gonna make a metis backpack like this

for the ammo carriers. will be cool i think.

[joostsidy 685]

@lvlagic: I agree, however, I'm looking at reality to improve the internal game balance: vehicle assets are weaker now because of all the infantry carrying launchers and spare missiles.

@eggbeast: I like your suggestion of vehicle backups for infantry with missiles. It frees the infantry of load, it gives (enemy) vehicles more strength because not everyone has a missile and gives friendly vehicles more meaning because they're needed to transport essential weapons.

I already script the vehicle's cargo so indeed there's no mod requirement.

The ammo carriers look very cool, the 'penalty' of dragging these things around is very visible here. Nobody's jumping over fences with these :-)

[eggbeast 3684]

yeah they also dont have any ammo, rations, water, washkit or other essentials... hence the need to operate from vehicles.