The AI and AI's UI needs major improvement

[Ristar 10]

It is no secret that the AI is utterly useless other than for spotting enemies through walls/buildings/hills (cheating), and the AI's UI is very poorly designed. At the moment, I feel like killing all the AIs, whether they are friend or foe. Friend because they're a little more than useless, and foe because they're trying to kill me.

The bolded part is what the current AI does now.

BI needs to:

1. make the AI rearm properly by stocking itself full of ammo, instead of running out of ammo all the time.

2. give the player the ability to point at a corpse and tell the AI to rearm at the corpse or friendly AI instead of going through the lousy menu with a bazillion pages. Even better, give the player the ability to view the subordinate's inventory so that the player can choose what to loot.

3. give the player the ability to point at a weapon and tell the AI to grab it instead of going through the lousy menu with a bazillion pages and possibly causing the AI to run off a bazillion kilometres away because that weapon is not the one in front of you.

4. give the AI the explicit command to hurry the hell up instead of acting smart and walking slowly while in crouching position.

5. give the AI the explicit command to stay close instead of acting smart and walking all over the map. This problem is especially obvious in urban environments. By close, I mean right next to/behind the player. The second AI should be a bit to the left/right of the player so that he can fire at wherever the player is shooting as well.

6. give up to 2 AI the explicit command to stick to the player so that room clearing can be done correctly instead of 1 competent player plus 2 AI running around with no idea what to do.

7. give the AI the explicit command to attack a group of targets instead of them acting smart and engaging targets not in the group and alerting them.

8. make the player have easier access to the subordinate inventory instead of going through the lousy menu with a bazillion pages.

9. when browsing subordinate inventory, the player's inventory should be on the left side so that the player can pass whatever crap he wants to the AI, instead of doing double work by first topping up the AI's vest and uniform and then opening the AI's bag to top the bag up.

10. have a dedicated move and attack button hotkey, instead of using the same key while in the poorly designed menu to get the AI to attack or move, to avoid the AI from moving when the targeted enemy moves and the contextual menu changing from "Attack" to "Move", at the exact same time the player presses the key to select the function.

11. have correct fire/movement behaviour while in combat. The ones told to move are supposed to dash and prone at the new location, and the remaining are supposed to give suppression fire. Instead of acting smart and slowly strolling to the new position and having to be told to prone.

12. give the player the option to tell them to shut up or interrupt the AI's speech, instead of having the AIs report contacts through walls and whatever and having to wait it out before the order is uttered by the player character and followed by the AI.

13. give the player the option to tell the AI that when it rearms, it is supposed to top itself up to whatever items it has currently.

14. give the AI field discipline when told to be "Aware". When not moving and not in combat, they're supposed to be in crouching position instead of standing around like a nice, big target begging to be shot. For snipers, they're supposed to be in prone position.

15. give the AI a bit of common sense and not walk in front of the player when the player's firing. No human does that.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Ristar

[semiconductor 309]

It is no secret that the AI is utterly useless other than for spotting enemies through walls/buildings/hills (cheating), and the AI's UI is very poorly designed. At the moment, I feel like killing all the AIs, whether they are friend or foe. Friend because they're a little more than useless, and foe because they're trying to kill me.

While I agree with you on many points, I don't think that Arma's AI is poorly designed or useless. In fact, it's the best AI I ever seen in a computer game that performs (considering extremely huge and dynamic map) well with reasonable hardware requirements. While AI works on his own it's doing a pretty great job actually.

The challenge with leading an AI squad (or being led by) is on player's side — he have no way to properly communicate with his squad and, in turn, AIs can't communicate with alive player like they do with their fellow AI-controlled team leader. It's painful to micro-manage every unit's needs by yourself but the second you set them free (by ordering to clear area/guard/move here) and let them handle themselves, they return to the normal not-so-retarded behavior. Once you ordered them to return into formation, get ready to feel like a mom of 8 gown men with guns and intellectual capacity of a toddler.

So the problem is that AI expects player to lead them like he is an AI-commander (i.e. issuing order for every move) but they have very limited means to announce their needs to player and player should guess how exactly AI would react to certain command, dig through a menu and issue commands step-by-step within right periods of time. If something goes wrong, you have to start form the beginning. Yeah, it's pretty terrible experience but honestly, I don't think that there many other options for BI. They can't afford creating highly advanced AI (which will learn from player's behaviour and eventually start to predict what player needs or something along those lines) for a $40 game and players can't afford buying two data centers to have this advanced AI actually run on their rig.

Sure, a new, refined UI will be way better than current menu from 2001 but the problem itself is more complicated and I doubt that it could be resolved with couple of patches here and there, sadly.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Semiconductor

[orcinus 121]

@Semiconductor: good post.

@OP: I also agree on many points. Some are being addressed, e.g. http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3920

There are workarounds for some points. Want to get your team following fast? Set formation to "file" or "delta" and order all to "Hold Fire" and "Stand up" (unless moving along a low wall or in a ditch for cover & concealment). Which formation is best depends on team size and, critically, terrain and any intel / suspicions you might have about possible enemy positions or movements. Don't ever give "Open fire" orders to teams in delta formation...

I have a partly-built mod for A2/CO to address some of the bugs/"features" in rearming that aims to do pretty much what you complain about in points 1-3 (and more). Not sure when I'll be able to finish it due to RL issue, still less about porting it to A3; the inventory structure wil make it a much more complex task, plus weapon-dropping buggers up a lot of rearming especially anything like that in Robalo's asr_ai for A2/CO.

It is possible to set the AI to have infinite ammo, btw, but I find that too unrealistic.

[chompster 29]

Maybe in Arma4.

No but seriously, these are issues that have been around for years with no hope of being fixed. Which is why i gave up on trying to lead Ai loooooooooong ago, there's no point. The cause more frustration than they're worth. Even playing with incompetent friends who've never played arma before are better than Ai. And unfortunately all this applies to enemy Ai as well.

While i'm sure there are a bunch of mods and work around to simplify things, it really shouldn't have to come down to that. Shame how Arma's most important feature is also it's weakest link.

[inlesco 233]

Since almost no game dev puts so much effort into infantry AI as BIS, they don't feel rushed by the ' progress ' other studios make, so it's not that big of a deal.

Either way, since AI isn't the sole focus on selling Arma, it shouldn't become one at any rate.

[calin_banc 19]

Either way, since AI isn't the sole focus on selling Arma, it shouldn't become one at any rate.

You're right, just a major one. :rolleyes:

[redarmy 422]

@Semiconductor: good post.

@OP: I also agree on many points. Some are being addressed, e.g. http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=3920

There are workarounds for some points. Want to get your team following fast? Set formation to "file" or "delta" and order all to "Hold Fire" and "Stand up" (unless moving along a low wall or in a ditch for cover & concealment). Which formation is best depends on team size and, critically, terrain and any intel / suspicions you might have about possible enemy positions or movements. Don't ever give "Open fire" orders to teams in delta formation...

I have a partly-built mod for A2/CO to address some of the bugs/"features" in rearming that aims to do pretty much what you complain about in points 1-3 (and more). Not sure when I'll be able to finish it due to RL issue, still less about porting it to A3; the inventory structure wil make it a much more complex task, plus weapon-dropping buggers up a lot of rearming especially anything like that in Robalo's asr_ai for A2/CO.

It is possible to set the AI to have infinite ammo, btw, but I find that too unrealistic.

Hi Orcinus,just a heads up,if you get your mod to a testing stage id be more than happy to help in testing.Im as eager as anyone for any and all AI improvements particularly ones which pertain to AI automatically rearming

[orcinus 121]

@redarmy: noted, thank you. I'll add you to the list of possible testers.

[pulstar 55]

This isn't the first topic about AI, but the simple truth is that BIS won't hire specialized coders unless sales are affected by their outdated AI routines.

As a big fan of combined arms gameplay, I would love to see Steel Beasts' mechanized AI (bar the pathfinding, still awful when buildings are involved) and aerial manoeuvres from DCS for the whole battlefield experience in Arma. I mean who else cringes when jets fly at 100ft like it's Battlefield 4, or the suicidal helo pilots (useless for CAS).

[NeMeSiS 11]

While i agree that the UI is shit and is missing options like a 'hurry up' and a proper 'rearm' command,

It is no secret that the AI is utterly useless other than for spotting enemies through walls/buildings/hills (cheating),.

is bullshit.

5. give the AI the explicit command to stay close instead of acting smart and walking all over the map. This problem is especially obvious in urban environments. By close, I mean right next to/behind the player. The second AI should be a bit to the left/right of the player so that he can fire at wherever the player is shooting as well.

Is already in. Formation delta IIRC (And another one which i cannot remember).

[orcinus 121]

While i agree that the UI is shit and is missing options like a 'hurry up' and a proper 'rearm' command,

is bullshit.

Agreed.

Is already in. Formation delta IIRC (And another one which i cannot remember).

Ninja'd ya :)

The other formation is "File", but don't forget to give the "hold fire" command (especially in delta if you have more then 2 units).

[bad benson 1733]

Shame how Arma's most important feature is also it's weakest link.

couldn't agree more. the AI is the one thing that makes arma really stand out. i gave up on friendly AI too. 10 years of trying to handle them was enough :D. i think the AI serve well as enemies though. only problem i see is that they have a phobia of buildings and maybe some detection refinement is needed.

what i'd love to see is friendly AI being handled totally different so you can have them react instantly. and maybe a quick menu that can be used instead of that hidious list menu. same flaw as the scroll menu. making people scroll through all entries to the entry they are looking for instead of just giving you mouse control or proper context sensitivity.

also. i'm not sure how far this is already possible but it would be amazing if you could have huge groups separated into fire teams (optional) and then you'd just command each fire team leader with commands specially made for that. almost turning it into a little RTS. one could do so many awesome things with the friendly AI. they don't even have to be super smart. it's about the following things and always has been for about 14 years:

- i say, you do, instantly

- learn to drive

- learn to frikkin use your rocketlauncher

if these major things would work with the friendly AI, they would already be 50% better. it's not always about them being stupid or robotic. the most frustrations comes from them simply being broken in many situations. i don't expect AI to be actually smart. but they need to be tools that can perform basic tasks without error (for the most part). otherwise they turn from tools to a liability. so why use them at all...

Edited March 16, 2015 by Bad Benson

[orcinus 121]

@BB: I recall seeing a thread on the bugtracker about a 'move fast' command; recently it has been assigned to a senior dev - I'll try & find it later today & add it to this post. More votes can't hurt :)

[calin_banc 19]

also. i'm not sure how far this is already possible but it would be amazing if you could have huge groups separated into fire teams (optional) and then you'd just command each fire team leader with commands specially made for that.

You can atm do something like that (was possible for a long time if my memory serves me right). Just select which team mates you want in a squad, then go to menu 9 I think, and select a color for them. Afterwards, with Ctrl+1, Ctrl+2 etc., you select the desired team. It's fun as you said, but you soon face the "common issues": poor driving, shooting, path finding, reloading, etc.

[Ristar 10]

is bullshit.

nope. i challenge u to turn on enemy tags, and watch the AI call out enemies on the other side of the hill. hell, turn on "track units" in MCC to confirm it.

Is already in. Formation delta IIRC (And another one which i cannot remember).

i was saying, people should close up, but not fan out like in delta. the AI also should not get lost and walk all over the stupid map and get itself killed because it wants to keep the formation and distance, instead of just following closely.

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ----------

Agreed.

Ninja'd ya :)

The other formation is "File", but don't forget to give the "hold fire" command (especially in delta if you have more then 2 units).

File is good. but have u played the game "First to Fight"?

the way the friendly AI behaves is more desirable than ARMA3's.

if memory serves... it will automatically find cover as it moves, will move parallel to the leader, will crouch, will corner, will find cover when shot at, will not stand in the middle of the road like it's its grandfather's property.

i also dont remember scrolling through bazillion pages of stuff to ask the AI to do anything.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Ristar

[NeMeSiS 11]

nope. i challenge u to turn on enemy tags, and watch the AI call out enemies on the other side of the hill. hell, turn on "track units" in MCC to confirm it.

.

There are some very specific cases where there is something wrong with an object which does not block view, and the grass layer is a whole other matter (

, though it may be better in ArmA3). Also, information sharing about targets between groups is possible in the standard game, even without external scripts. Target information can also come from hearing (over hills). In any case, 99,99% of the time you can be sure that the AI did not spot you through anything.

If you can prove that you are being spotted through a hill, feel free to file a bug report.

Edited March 17, 2015 by NeMeSiS

[calin_banc 19]

Your character calls out target in the campaign that should have not been spotted that easy with quite... ease. :) That's the best proof right there.

[Ristar 10]

.

There are some very specific cases where there is something wrong with an object which does not block view, and the grass layer is a whole other matter (

, though it may be better in ArmA3). Also, information sharing about targets between groups is possible in the standard game, even without external scripts. Target information can also come from hearing (over hills). In any case, 99,99% of the time you can be sure that the AI did not spot you through anything.

If you can prove that you are being spotted through a hill, feel free to file a bug report.

Watch your tongue.

Happy now?

[NeMeSiS 11]

No, that really didnt prove anything. The AI in your group aren't even in combat mode so they dont seem too bothered by your target. Also note that missions like that usually have some form of information sharing between groups enabled, though i didnt bother to check the details in DUWS.

EDIT: Though if you can make a scenario where you are consistently shot through fog when this should not be possible report it here with all required information (skill settings, fog levels, etc). However posting bullshit claims just hurts a good cause and i wish people would stop it.

Edited March 18, 2015 by NeMeSiS

[silentghoust 132]

Sometimes I feel people expect the AI to be more dumb rather then smarter. If your running around prone in the grass, of course they will spot something moving around. Just like any other player would, same with smoke and such. They can predict pathing movement and speed, just as well as a player can. Popping smoke and then letting them see you run into it isn't going to save you, they will keep shooting using a predictable path that you created.

Also you guys need to do what I did. Find some pro starcraft 2 player and steal his blood, makes you manage AI way easier.

[kothen 57]

I think another thing people need to realize is that this is a game. Despite people calling it Simulator, BI themselves have called it a game. AI can never mimic that of human (at least in public games for now) but I do agree there needs to be some improvements especially when leading Ai. There should be an option for "move it" or "double time". I know the original ghost recon had an "at all costs command" where AI would do whatever you want even if being shot at.

[Ristar 10]

No, that really didnt prove anything. The AI in your group aren't even in combat mode so they dont seem too bothered by your target. Also note that missions like that usually have some form of information sharing between groups enabled, though i didnt bother to check the details in DUWS.

EDIT: Though if you can make a scenario where you are consistently shot through fog when this should not be possible report it here with all required information (skill settings, fog levels, etc). However posting bullshit claims just hurts a good cause and i wish people would stop it.

I can see that you have the "defend BI at all costs" mentality.

What I am talking about is the ability to spot objects through walls/hills/whatever. Whether the AI is "bothered" or not is not important. The AI does not go to combat mode upon spotting an enemy. I am puzzled that you even brought this irrelevant thing up.

The only ones on the map

http://s10.postimg.org/8pn9ru79z/2015_03_24_00005.jpg (437 kB)

X ray vision. So realistic. No issue at all. Everything is my imagination

Of course, everything is bullshit to you.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Ristar

[NeMeSiS 11]

Like I said before, missions like that often have scripts running in the background that share information between groups (related to reinforment calling, etc). If you want to prove something you will have to make a repeatable setup in the mission editor (without addons or scripts that influence AI behaviour). I am also not sure how the enemy tags relate to AI knowledge (though there is some relation, like the target marker, which cant really be used for proof either since its position is where the AI thinks the enemy is, not where the actual unit is)

Right now if i put 2 units on opposite sites of a hill and let them walk around a bit and look in each others general direction they will not spot each other through the hill, and reading out any related values of their knowledge about each other shows absolutely nothing. What do you want me to say? And if what you claim is true, how the hell is anyone supposed to fix it if they cant reproduce it.

And i am not blindly defending BI, i completely agree on the shitty rearming (which needs to be fixed soon, which all the new suppression stuff we are going to run out of ammo a lot more often) and the lack of a 'hurry up' command.

EDIT: Btw, i can only see your images by copy and posting the URL in a new window, just URLs instead of hotlinking would be easier. (Hotlinking may not be allowed, though you would be able to see them because they would still be cached for you.). That being said, i am not sure what you are showing me with those screenshots.

EDIT2: I dug up an old mission with some testing stuff in it so you can play around with it for yourself and see how objects/terrain influence AI vision. Feel free to drag the player and enemy squad around the map to try different situations.

https://mega.co.nz/#!90JmTLxS!tseZhQAOtYWLTnveheKH4ebu_h8_jhwwxzEfNOW1smo

Unrar and drop in your normal mission editing folder.

EDIT3: What the values on the right in the examplemission mean:

https://community.bistudio.com/wiki/nearTargets

Edited March 24, 2015 by NeMeSiS

[rawalanche 13]

AI in ArmA 3 is bad. There is just nothing to discuss about it. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

But from more personal point of view... I found some of the campaign missions where i was in command of a squad very difficult. The same missions turned out extremely easy as soon as i sent entire my squad some random place opposite way of the battlefield and did the mission on my own. I think that speaks for everything...

[dr death jm 117]

couldn't agree more. the AI is the one thing that makes arma really stand out. i gave up on friendly AI too. 10 years of trying to handle them was enough :D. i think the AI serve well as enemies though. only problem i see is that they have a phobia of buildings and maybe some detection refinement is needed.

what i'd love to see is friendly AI being handled totally different so you can have them react instantly. and maybe a quick menu that can be used instead of that hidious list menu. same flaw as the scroll menu. making people scroll through all entries to the entry they are looking for instead of just giving you mouse control or proper context sensitivity.

also. i'm not sure how far this is already possible but it would be amazing if you could have huge groups separated into fire teams (optional) and then you'd just command each fire team leader with commands specially made for that. almost turning it into a little RTS. one could do so many awesome things with the friendly AI. they don't even have to be super smart. it's about the following things and always has been for about 14 years:

- i say, you do, instantly

- learn to drive

- learn to frikkin use your rocketlauncher

if these major things would work with the friendly AI, they would already be 50% better. it's not always about them being stupid or robotic. the most frustrations comes from them simply being broken in many situations. i don't expect AI to be actually smart. but they need to be tools that can perform basic tasks without error (for the most part). otherwise they turn from tools to a liability. so why use them at all...

the rts im working on may just well do this... it an RTS from ofp ... KaRRiLLioNs .. ive been working on it for a while.Zenophon is helping me add his Zenophon's Framework (or im helping him) but the frame work is very intelligent .... So hope to be testing the RTS soon