New Weaponsway is way to much. And holding breath bug?

[Rath 10]

Have you noticed how it's been, what, 3 days? And the complaining is already almost dead? :confused:

Probably cause those of us who play for tactics and immersion instead of a gimmicky NON REALISTIC minigame when aiming have found a way around the ridiculousness.

The new weapon sway isn't any more challenging to me, it is just annoying.

Choosing how you want to play is the beauty of ArmA 3 and the modding community always comes through.

Had Bohemia put in an option to disable or reduce the *absolutely unlike real life* horizontal sway in the first place, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

There are a lot of other settings in ArmA 3 that we can toggle so that people can play however they want to. Think 3rd person is stupid? Ok cool, good for you, turn it off and go away then. Same should go for this.

I find that having incredibly challenging Ai and scenarios is far more fun than having an aiming minigame. My group is composed of a lot of veterans and we have been shooting rifles most of our lives. I have our server and maps set up to be damn near impossible without using tactics, teamwork, and coordination. We don't need some stupid "fight your mouse to make aiming harder" system to make us feel special - we are already amazing at the game. We all think the new weapon sway is a joke so we found a way around it in order to enjoy playing.

So you think this new weapon sway is good? Your opinion is noted, thanks, go play then.

I went to my 300m rifle range today and after posting my target I ran back to the line with an interceptor vest on (plates in), a backpack with 50lbs of weight in it, and shot from standing, crouched, and prone unsupported. Every shot hit within 6 inches of the bullseye because I know how to handle a rifle. There was *very little* horizontal sway, only vertical from my breathing. Amazing!

Want realism? I do. We play with the new sway bullshit off.

Why are you guys so worried about how other people want to play anyways?

Edited July 18, 2014 by Rath

[down8 30]

I can't understand people defending this. Bad mechanics affecting fun, and no possibility of counteracting.

I think is preferable to have some unrealistic long range kills, that frustrating engagements at far more common ranges. If you want more challenging shooting, this is a very bad way to go.

Without weapon resting and AI balance, mixed with the bad damage model, is pretty bad decision to introduce this in the game.

Probably cause those of us who play for tactics and immersion instead of a gimmicky NON REALISTIC minigame when aiming have found a way around the ridiculousness.

The new weapon sway isn't any more challenging to me, it is just annoying.

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Pretty much.

[whisper 0]

I went to my 300m rifle range today and after posting my target I ran back to the line with an interceptor vest on (plates in), a backpack with 50lbs of weight in it, and shot from standing, crouched, and prone unsupported. Every shot hit within 6 inches of the bullseye because I know how to handle a rifle. There was *very little* horizontal sway, only vertical from my breathing.

Just a question, I personnally don't care much which version of sway we'll end up having as I don't find the current one annoying, and I don't have first hand rifle experience so this is not making me furious :) But : how long does it take you to line up your shots @300m and hit on the mark, compared to how long it takes in game with 1) old sway version, and 2) new sway version. Imho, the current sway should be more inline to irl "time to aim", but that's just a wild guess. Also, would simply using vertical sway force a better "time to aim" in-game?

I quite like the fact it takes more time now to align a shot, maybe I'm mistaken but it raise my immersion when I know I'm taking a risk taking time to aim vs using suppression and movement (with its own drawback on fatigue).

[Rath 10]

Honestly the rifle does most of the work. On average it takes about 5 seconds to line up a good shot when trying to control the vertical movement when breathing and at that range. It takes a lot of focus, training, and breath control. I spend a lot of time just plinking metal targets that are about one square foot. As long as I hear the gong sound I'm happy. Anyways I was just trying to emphasize the issue I had with the horizontal movement of the new sway. I understand people like the challenge of the new system, but as I keep saying it breaks immersion for some people and the optional argument keeps getting ignored.

[faire 10]

Rath, I didn't understand that it breaks immersion for you until you said that in the last post. I know I should have but when you say "NON REALISTIC minigame" (absolute statement) I tend to debate whether that is true (because I do not think it is non realistic minigame and we could have a long and useless debate about that). When you say that it breaks your suspension of disbelief because IR the rifle aiming works differently (statement relating to subjective enjoyment tied to objective conditions) I get what you are saying! Thanks for the explanation.

BTW I would say that generally people verbally endorsing the new system like immersion and tactics too, not that it was that relevant.

Yep, having it in difficulty options makes sense for me, maybe more than nerfing it.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Faire

[Meathook 10]

I don't think the optional argument gets ignored, everyone likes options. There is just not much to say about it. It's up to BIS to put this in as an option so there's neither a lot we can do about it right now nor discuss about.

[Rath 10]

Sorry for being a jerk about it guys I think my tone was a little rough. There are a lot of different playstyles in the ArmA community and I respect that - we just need more options :)

It has been a frustrating week recovering from all the stuff 1.24 broke lol...

[Curry 10]

Personally I think the sway isn't that bad but what I find is lacking is the realism of the sway. If you have pressed your cheek against the stock while holding your rifle, your sights will not sway in front of your eyes while your head is totally immobile. Your head and eyes also swing together with the sights. I don't like that ARMA sway at all but not because of its intensity but of the unrealistic movement.

[VoRtReX-uk 10]

Personally I think the sway isn't that bad but what I find is lacking is the realism of the sway. If you have pressed your cheek against the stock while holding your rifle, your sights will not sway in front of your eyes while your head is totally immobile. Your head and eyes also swing together with the sights. I don't like that ARMA sway at all but not because of its intensity but of the unrealistic movement.

VERY GOOD Point, maybe dev branch sway with the weapon sway and head sway synced.

[Curry 10]

VERY GOOD Point, maybe dev branch sway with the weapon sway and head sway synced.

It shouldn't be synced completely but there should be two different "layers" of sway that occur. Movement of your head/body (when it's windy your body swings around mainly in an unsupported position) and the sway of the weapon in your hands (affected by condition of player - wounded, exhausted...). Length and weight of the weapon have also something to do that affect weapon sway NOT body sway.

The way the sway is simulated now is rather crude. For me it feels like the body is completely made of stone while only your arms can somehow move. Doesn't feel and look good.

[raven_jj 1]

Rath, and what would you think if the sway was flipped 90 degrees, so it would be more vertical than horizontal?

[Cormega 0]

wow bistudio really... People already annoyed at the last change to the fundamental core of the game a few weeks back. Now you push another insane scope sway.. i cannot even lay down and aim no more! I had 5 mates buy the game in the sale, no of them will even play due to the game been "frustrating" to say the least.

Change it back, allow optional tick box for co-op players to enable, pvp servers are up in flame wars in game chat over this stuiped change.

I'd like to see it taken a step further and add a switch to turn off fatigue for people who don't want the ridiculous fatigue and weapon sway features.

[Echo38 1]

Put me down as one of the real-life shooters who agrees that the current weapon sway is unrealistic. When not fatigued, there isn't even half as much wandering of the sights as there is here. Even a not-particularly-fit shooter can, while standing, hold the sights more still than the soldiers in this game. As others have said, the "simulation" in the new Arma 3 weapon wave is a simulation of a drunken marksman. That's the only time a normal, healthy, not-fatigued shooter will have sway like this -- after having six drinks or so, consecutively.

Real-life "weapon sway" is more of a trembling than a sway, anyway. You can see this by holding a ~10 lb. log in front of you, like a rifle, and looking down the top of it as though you were aiming it. It doesn't wander around much, it simply shakes a bit on a tiny scale -- we aren't even talking millimeters of motion, but like half a millimeter deviation.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Echo38

[beastcat 14]

Real-life "weapon sway" is more of a trembling than a sway, anyway. You can see this by holding a ~10 lb. log in front of you, like a rifle, and looking down the top of it as though you were aiming it. It doesn't wander around much, it simply shakes a bit on a tiny scale -- we aren't even talking millimeters of motion, but like half a millimeter deviation.

You have to counteract the sway like you counteract the weight of the weapon in real life and you get pretty much the same result.

[Rath 10]

Rath, and what would you think if the sway was flipped 90 degrees, so it would be more vertical than horizontal?

That would be perfect in my opinion.

What I'd like to see is the longer you are holding up a heavier weapon the more it starts to shake. That would require lowering your weapon to rest occasionally. Also the vertical sway (and some shaking) would increase when fatigued but holding your breath would reduce it significantly, although you wouldn't be able to hold it for long.

edit: The shake would have to be very minimal at first of course, would take a while to kick in, and would gradually get worse depending on the weight of the weapon - unsupported firing only though.

We use XMED and when you are injured your aim is very shaky which is also pretty cool.

---------- Post added 07-19-2014 at 12:03 AM ---------- Previous post was 07-18-2014 at 11:54 PM ----------

You have to counteract the sway like you counteract the weight of the weapon in real life and you get pretty much the same result.

Not sure what exactly you mean here, but sway and trembling/shake are a lot different. Sway is typically from breathing and trembling/shake is from muscle fatigue - neither of which cause the horizontal sway that we see now.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Rath

[BL1P 35]

It can already be turned off.

If the servers you play on haven't already turned it off they probably won't.

[Rath 10]

It can already be turned off.

If the servers you play on haven't already turned it off they probably won't.

Yeah with enableFatigue false right? I chose not to disable the fatigue and just fix the sway.

I have the exaggerated sway fixed on my own server but the fatigue is still on because the movement speed effects are pretty cool. We were just discussing how to make the sway better...

Edited July 19, 2014 by Rath

[vegeta897 13]

Put me down as one of the real-life shooters who agrees that the current weapon sway is unrealistic. When not fatigued, there isn't even half as much wandering of the sights as there is here. Even a not-particularly-fit shooter can, while standing, hold the sights more still than the soldiers in this game. As others have said, the "simulation" in the new Arma 3 weapon wave is a simulation of a drunken marksman. That's the only time a normal, healthy, not-fatigued shooter will have sway like this -- after having six drinks or so, consecutively.

Real-life "weapon sway" is more of a trembling than a sway, anyway. You can see this by holding a ~10 lb. log in front of you, like a rifle, and looking down the top of it as though you were aiming it. It doesn't wander around much, it simply shakes a bit on a tiny scale -- we aren't even talking millimeters of motion, but like half a millimeter deviation.

The sway isn't meant to look or act like how holding a weapon steady in real life looks. Holding a weapon still in real life requires effort and concentration, while holding your mouse still in real life requires no effort at all. This has to be made up for. Please read what Coulum has said about this:

In real life, go prone and just let go of your rifle. How on target does the rifle stay? Compare that to in game when you let go of the mouse. See how a mouse and a real weapon react so differently?

Next test.

Set up a target 800 - 1000 metres away. Use any optics you'd like. Use any gun you'd like. Adjust for windage and distance as you see fit. Now go prone sight in and shoot that target in less than 5 seconds. I don't know about you, but I sure can't do that, even when wind and distance is already perfectly set. It takes a bit of time and effort. Actually alot of time and effort. Compare that to arma with the latest devbranch sway, where I can easily do that. Can even make a video to demonstrate if you'd like. See how the decrease in sway makes shooting unrealistically easy?

Handling a weapon and handling a mouse are two very different things. What is important to me is not what looks realistic, but what creates realistic results. Sway is a real phenomenon but any exaggeration of it in game is to make up for things that you cannot simulate with a mouse. For example in game it is assumed that we are always in a perfect stance to shoot, always have our sights perfectly aligned, always have our sights perfectly zeroed, and have an absolutely flawless trigger pull. Those are real challenges a shooter has to focus to control that we don't have to worry about at all in game. So bit of extra sway is used to compensate. But in the end it results in more realistic gameplay. Please try to understand this. I can accept if you think the current sway looks unrealistic, if it doesn't feel realistic or if you want some other system to represent all the mentioned challenges to shooting, but in the end the results created by the sway are more realistic (that is, the time and effort required for a successful shot is more realistic). Do you see maybe a bit of the perspective I am coming from?

[Rath 10]

Dude, vegeta, you just don't get it... We understand there is a "we like the minigame" group of players and there is also a "this is annoyingly unrealistic" group of players.

Some people like having the new dynamic of the sway, some people don't. That's called diversity.

Those of us who find it annoyingly unrealistic are simply asking for options to adjust the weapon sway (to a vertical pattern) not to have it removed completely.

[dsiOne 10]

Dude, vegeta, you just don't get it... We understand there is a "we like the minigame" group of players and there is also a "this is annoyingly unrealistic" group of players.

Some people like having the new dynamic of the sway, some people don't. That's called diversity.

Those of us who find it annoyingly unrealistic are simply asking for options to adjust the weapon sway (to a vertical pattern) not to have it removed completely.

It isn't a minigame.

Is counteracting recoil in the game a minigame? Responding to the changes in the road while driving?

What isn't a minigame for you?

[Rath 10]

It bothers you that I call it a minigame? That's just my way of saying it is annoyingly unrealistic in that it feels like a minigame to me.

[-Coulum- 35]

dude, vegeta, you just don't get it... We understand there is a "we like the minigame" group of players

But do you also understand that that "minigame" does produce more realistic situations and limitations in game? Or do you disagree with that also?

Those of us who find it annoyingly unrealistic are simply asking for options to adjust the weapon sway (to a vertical pattern) not to have it removed completely.

Okay. Does that mean that you actually are okay with the magnitude and difficulty of the sway? I am confused a bit because while you say you don't want to have to play a minigame to shoot, at the same time you are saying that you are okay with that exact minigame, as long as its more vertical vs horizontal. Am I misunderstanding you?

See Rath there is there are two sides to this. My side where I want a realistic amount of challenge, and your side where you want it to look and feel realistic. Do you think it is possible to achieve both in a single system? If so, how? Particularly how would you personally go about making shooting require as much focus as in reality? I am interested if you have any ideas because maybe we could come up with a system that fully satisfies both parties.Have any ideas? Or do you think that you cannot have both the challenge and the looks at the same time?

[Rath 10]

But do you also understand that that "minigame" does produce more realistic situations and limitations in game? Or do you disagree with that also?

I don't think it produces anything realistic because the horizontal sway is ridiculous, but that is my opinion, based on years and years of experience firing rifles in real life and not seeing much horizontal sway.

Okay. Does that mean that you actually are okay with the magnitude and difficulty of the sway? I am confused a bit because while you say you don't want to have to play a minigame to shoot, at the same time you are saying that you are okay with that exact minigame, as long as its more vertical vs horizontal. Am I misunderstanding you?

See Rath there is there are two sides to this. My side where I want a realistic amount of challenge, and your side where you want it to look and feel realistic. Do you think it is possible to achieve both in a single system? If so, how? Particularly how would you personally go about making shooting require as much focus as in reality? I am interested if you have any ideas because maybe we could come up with a system that fully satisfies both parties.Have any ideas? Or do you think that you cannot have both the challenge and the looks at the same time?

If the sway was 90% vertical and 10% horizontal it wouldn't feel unrealistic to me and I would enjoy it. I wrote out my idea (edit: post #165) a few posts back, and I am working on a mod for my group that does exactly that.

[Chocolate 1]

I appreciate what they(BIS) were trying to do, but at close range its way too much movement. If they toned it down some I think it would be great. Also, as Rath has suggested, maybe it should be more vertical in movement.

On a side note, it is funny how when you are scoped you see the reticle moving around almost as if you aren't holding the rifle anymore. I guess you can't really give the player the sense of physical connection unless scoped mode was modeled differently.

[roshnak 41]

I don't think it produces anything realistic because the horizontal sway is ridiculous, but that is my opinion, based on years and years of experience firing rifles in real life and not seeing much horizontal sway.

He's referring to the fact that heavier weapon sway forces closer range engagements and encourages the use of suppression and fire and maneuver tactics, while dissuading people from sniping at each other from 600 meters. What he's asking is if you disagree that those are the effects of the new sway or if you disagree that those effects are more realistic or both or neither.

If the sway was 90% vertical and 10% horizontal it wouldn't feel unrealistic to me and I would enjoy it. I wrote out my idea (edit: post #165) a few posts back, and I am working on a mod for my group that does exactly that.

How does taking the current sway and rotating its axis make it not a minigame, though?

Edited July 19, 2014 by roshnak