Israel General

[mistyronin 1181]

That's what I needed to listen. One of the worst propaganda media in the whole world ( with the permission of KCTV ), RT, calling propaganda other medias...

It would be like Hitler calling nazi to another world leader.

BTW if what that RT propagandist was true why today's headlines in that medias are:

( NY Times ) Killing of Palestinian Youth Puts an Israeli Focus on Extremism

( NY Times ) Palestinian Death Toll Nears 100 as Hamas Promises More Attacks on Israel

( Wall Street Journal ) Gaza Death Toll Rises Sharply as Israel Escalates Attacks

e death toll from Israel's air assault on the Gaza Strip rose sharply on Thursday, following the pattern of past conflicts when Palestinian fatalities far exceeded those on the Israeli side.

( LA Times ) Gaza flare-up brings all-too-familiar dread to Israelis, Palestinians

With rockets showering down on Israel and corpses piling up in Gaza, residents on either side of the divide have been left with a dreadful feeling of deja vu.

If you even prefer more:

( BBC ) Gaza crisis: Death toll from Israeli strikes 'hits 100'

( Le Monde ) Gaza : un bilan d'au moins 100 morts depuis le début de l'offensive

( El País ) Un centenar de muertos en cuatro días de ataques contra Hamás en la franja Gaza

Seems that most of the world have the same headlines giving all the information, but Russia, with the МиниÑтерÑтво ÑвÑзи и маÑÑовых коммуникаций РоÑÑийÑкой Федерации and properties like RT.

Edited July 11, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Xalteva 10]

That's what I needed to listen. One of the worst propaganda media in the whole world ( with the permission of KCTV ), RT, calling propaganda other medias...

It would be like Hitler calling nazi to another world leader.

BTW if what that RT propagandist was true why today's headlines in that medias are:

( NY Times ) Killing of Palestinian Youth Puts an Israeli Focus on Extremism

( NY Times ) Palestinian Death Toll Nears 100 as Hamas Promises More Attacks on Israel

( Wall Street Journal ) Gaza Death Toll Rises Sharply as Israel Escalates Attacks

( LA Times ) Gaza flare-up brings all-too-familiar dread to Israelis, Palestinians

If you even prefer more:

( BBC ) Gaza crisis: Death toll from Israeli strikes 'hits 100'

( Le Monde ) Gaza : un bilan d'au moins 100 morts depuis le début de l'offensive

( El País ) Un centenar de muertos en cuatro días de ataques contra Hamás en la franja Gaza

Seems that most of the world have the same headlines giving all the information, but Russia, with the МиниÑтерÑтво ÑвÑзи и маÑÑовых коммуникаций РоÑÑийÑкой Федерации and properties like RT.

So what is your point exactly ? if you focus on content you will notice that she is not that wrong ! Israel started this,you don't expect palestinians which are far less powerful to keep getting bombed without retaliating ? while the world is watching them getting slaughtered in silence .

If Israel is retaliating,then why it closed few days ago a dairy that was serving 300000 citizens in gaza ?

The funny thing is US is asking palestinisian resistance to stop using rockets against Israel ,rockets that haven't managed to do any serious damage yet,while Isarel is leveling palestinian territory with their bombs and killing/wounding hundreds of people ...

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

both sides are VERY religious, both believe in their superiority "because god chosen them" and this makes all problems,

No sorry,you got it wrong . The only religious side here is Israel which is stealing people territories and destroying their houses,palestinians are not only muslims ... they are people claiming for justic and that's all !

Edited July 11, 2014 by Xalteva

[mistyronin 1181]

So what is your point exactly ? if you focus on content you will notice that she is not that wrong ! Israel started this,you don't expect palestinians which are far less powerful to keep getting bombed without retaliating ? while the world is watching them getting slaughtered in silence .

If Israel is retaliating,then why it closed few days ago a dairy that was serving 300000 citizens in gaza ?

The funny thing is US is asking palestinisian resistance to stop using rockets against Israel ,rockets that haven't managed to do any serious damage yet,while Isarel is leveling palestinian territory with their bombs and killing/wounding hundreds of people ..

My point is that is really pathetic how RT give any information, specially if they blame other medias to be biased.

About the actual conflict it's just a branch of all the conflict tree that has it's roots and how the British messed it up after the colonial era ( basically after WW2 ), and how most of the nations of the world were influenced by a collective and allowed it to stole and settle down in a territory were other people had been living for centuries in relative peace ( using as an excuse religious documents that were older than 2000 years ). The funny thing is that idea to settle down all the Jews in one artificial country was invented by Hitler but he thought to move them to Madagascar and use the island as a huge concentration camp were Jews ruled themselves ).

People seem to forget that other collectives like gypsies and homosexuals were also exteminated in thousands in the nazi gas chambers ( it's not all the Shoah ).

And of course it's not about religion, that was only the excuse at the beginning, now it's about ethnicity ( culture ), economy, politics, etc.

The fact is that certain Jewish groups are really influential in certain countries, which are some of the ones that first patronized the artificial creation of the country of Israel and now they keep pushing certain politicians.

[ProfTournesol 956]

No sorry,you got it wrong . The only religious side here is Israel which is stealing people territories and destroying their houses,palestinians are not only muslims ... they are people claiming for justic and that's all !

Mmm maybe you should learn a little more about Hamas and Islamic Jihad movements...And pls, stop watching RT, it's as dangerous for your brain as watching Fox News.

[Xalteva 10]

Mmm maybe you should learn a little more about Hamas and Islamic Jihad movements...And pls, stop watching RT, it's as dangerous for your brain as watching Fox News.

yeah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are resistance factions ? what should i know more ? that they were tagged by bush's administration as terrorists ? what are their crimes then ?

Yes,RT is not the best channel ever,they are most of time biased towards a side for sure,but they're not the only ones !

Edited July 11, 2014 by Xalteva

[Tonci87 163]

No but they are amongst the worst ones. During the Ukraine crisis they made up storys that were frankly insulting to the intelligence of every smart reader with a bit of background information.

[mistyronin 1181]

No but they are amongst the worst ones. During the Ukraine crisis they made up storys that were frankly insulting to the intelligence of every smart reader with a bit of background information.

I'm sorry but ONLY DURING THE UKRAINE CRISIS?

I've been following them for some years, and already during the Georgian War they were just a propaganda factory, later against the European Union try to sell that it's in a so awful state that is decrepit and so on ( I funny thing is that more and more Russians immigrate there, I known a good group from the different cities & countries that I've lived ).

The same with certain South-Central American countries, and so on...

It's basically a propaganda tool from the worst kind. Funny thing is that it's mother-media RIA Novosti it's relatively good ( also state owned, and always in favor of the Kremlin but with a more serious aim ).

[cifordayzserver 119]

I say, the global community/UN declare all "holyland" off limits for residence or ownership.

Anyone can go there during the day, visit, worship, etc... no one gets to claim it, unless they can live there in peace. Park 100 or so Ocean Cruise vessels in port, make EVERYONE live on those. They'll either kill each other or learn to get along REAL fast.

Honestly I think it's time for global community "ownership" of all "high value" land. Anything to do with global resources or religion should be off limits for private, commercial, or governmental exploit. The individual communities should decide what happens with their local resources, and should share in the profits should they choose to allow external parties to exploit them.

There is simply too much conflict... everywhere, and it's largely due to inequity of local laws, normally as a direct result of corruption. This is true across the globe... no matter who, what, when, or where.. conflict arises almost exclusively from corruption only possible by way of individual wealth overpowering majority sentiment.

When you look at Israel by itself, you have a somewhat different case, obviously the residents of Israel are pretty unified in their desire to be there, but zoom out, and it's pretty clear, in the region, they are a wealthy minority opposing the will of the poor majority... There is only one outcome for this.

The fact that the world has both forced this situation into existence by way of not providing jewish refugees asylum after WWII, and sustained/supported it's continued escalation for this long, is just astounding to me. The only more shocking reality, is the jewish government that so systematically resurrects the conditions and rhetoric they were subjected to in pre WWII Germany. It's such a horrific parallel I really can't comprehend how it's even mildly tolerable to them as a people.

Having said all that, radical Islam is again, the same problem. The global community allows the wealthy minority in EVERY SINGLE middle eastern country to exploit the resources of the nation in return for capitulation in resource management. The middle eastern countries, have done a wonderful job of redirecting any anger directly at the evil west, the great satan, who they all work for.

Obviously even with a utopian global "arab spring" where actual change is accomplished, there will still be conflict, but, so long as we are a world that embraces individual profit via exploitation of world resources, we will be a world at war.

[katipo66 94]

Hey Misty, could you explain where she was lying and spreading propaganda in that video... I mean what media you might choose over another is irrelevant, i consider all of them to be propaganda tools, especially most of the ones you link to, so please if there is an item that you disagree with then please provide the facts so that we can see and compare investigate etc :)

Edited July 11, 2014 by Katipo66

[Xalteva 10]

Hey Misty, could you explain where she was lying and spreading propaganda in that video.

yeah, sometimes questions are so easy and i miss them :D

[mistyronin 1181]

Hey Misty, could you explain where she was lying and spreading propaganda in that video...

I'll paste my post that is were I was pointing everything:

That's what I needed to listen. One of the worst propaganda media in the whole world ( with the permission of KCTV ), RT, calling propaganda other medias...

It would be like Hitler calling nazi to another world leader.

BTW if what that RT propagandist was true why today's headlines in that medias are:

Links

[katipo66 94]

No I wanted you to detail where she was lying and spreading propaganda from that video.

[mistyronin 1181]

No I wanted you to detail where she was lying and spreading propaganda from that video.

I have already done it in my first post, I have even quoted myself in case you didn't read it. :j:

As far as I know, when you say something that you know it's not true, with the object of influence certain people, that is to lie and in a propagandist way.

Specially if with that you want to demote certain media and promote yours. Incurring even in false advertising.

All that without entering how she realizes the editorial, which is at least really poor & cheap journalism ( if you can call it that ).

[katipo66 94]

Oh sorry I never explain myself properly, I wasn't really caring about the media items but the details of what was happening on the ground, I see where your coming from, all good :)

[mistyronin 1181]

Oh sorry I never explain myself properly, I wasn't really caring about the media items but the details of what was happening on the ground, I see where your coming from, all good :)

No harm done :)

I probably should have specified better that my aim was how she insulted the other medias.

[mistyronin 1181]

( BBC ) Israel warns north Gaza civilians to evacuate ahead of strikes

( Al Jazeera ) Israeli troops launch first incursion in Gaza

[krycek 349]

From the BBC article:

"Israel says it is targeting Hamas militants and "terror sites", including the homes of senior operatives. However, the United Nations has estimated that 77% of the people killed in Gaza have been civilians."

IDF "accuracy" at it's finest,they use exactly the same tactics like Hamas but with the advantage of technology.For them it's obvious there aren't any civilians in Gaza Strip,yup everyone's a terrorist there.

[mistyronin 1181]

IDF "accuracy" at it's finest,they use exactly the same tactics like Hamas but with the advantage of technology.For them it's obvious there aren't any civilians in Gaza Strip,yup everyone's a terrorist there.

You forgot that evacuating the Civilians from the North of Gaza, it's by itself a huge economic and moral strike.

Now they ar gonna lead a ground attack and knowing what's their strategy in Close Combat, basically blowing the houses walls to "open" corridors and avoid the streets, are gonna leave lots of civilians without even the security of their homes when they go back.

[Variable 322]

IDF "accuracy" at it's finest,they use exactly the same tactics like Hamas but with the advantage of technology.For them it's obvious there aren't any civilians in Gaza Strip,yup everyone's a terrorist there.

What can Israel gain by targeting civilians? Civilians are killed because Hamas is deliberately launching from heavy populated areas. Do you expect Israel not to defend itself because Hamas is using human shields? Attacks are being called off when there's danger to civilians, IDF has a history of endangering its own troops just to avoid civilian casualties. Israel and Hamas are not using the same strategy because Hamas intentionally and deliberately tries to murder civilians while the IDF attempts to hit military targets and any civilian casualty, although unfortunate, is a side-effect of of this attempt. There's a huge difference. And now you are complaining that the IDF gives a head start to its enemy and warns them to evacuate an area that is about to get hit? This is done to limit civilian casualties.

Hamas is firing rockets on Israeli settlements for more than a decade, you don't hear about it in the news, you hear only when Israel has had it and retaliates periodically to produce a new status quo.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

[krycek 349]

What can Israel gain by targeting civilians? Civilians are killed because Hamas is deliberately launching from heavy populated areas. Do you expect Israel not to defend itself because Hamas is using human shields? Attacks are being called off when there's danger to civilians, IDF has a history of endangering its own troops just to avoid civilian casualties. Israel and Hamas are not using the same strategy because Hamas intentionally and deliberately tries to murder civilians while the IDF attempts to hit military targets and any civilian casualty, although unfortunate, is a side-effect of of this attempt. There's a huge difference. And now you are complaining that the IDF gives a head start to its enemy and warns them to evacuate an area that is about to get hit? This is done to limit civilian casualties.

Hamas is firing rockets on Israeli settlements for more than a decade, you don't hear about it in the news, you hear only when Israel has had it and retaliates periodically to produce a new status quo.

---------- Post added at 16:36 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

Looking at the history of IDF ops in Gaza and everytime it's the same.Lots and lots of civilian casualties on palestinian side.No,I don't expect IDF to stay with hands tight and do nothing while Hamas are having rocket parties,but how the hell do you manage to have about 10-15% at best terrorists killed while the rest are civ casualties.And they even say they target "thousands of terror sites",must be only 7-8 Hamas guys running between these sites if that's the IDF terrorist kill ratio.

IDF isn't some sort of second rate militia packing a few aks and 3 tanks,they have some of the best tech.Tech that should minimize,not maximize civ casualties.

They can't do better than this??Especially since they've been into this situation a lot of times in the past so it's not something exactly new for them.Sorry,but no,the human shield excuse doesn't fly anymore,they either target randomly not giving a rat's ass about civs or the command is highly incompetent(I doubt it's the former).

[Variable 322]

Looking at the history of IDF ops in Gaza and everytime it's the same.Lots and lots of civilian casualties on palestinian side.No,I don't expect IDF to stay with hands tight and do nothing while Hamas are having rocket parties,but how the hell do you manage to have about 10-15% at best terrorists killed while the rest are civ casualties.And they even say they target "thousands of terror sites",must be only 7-8 Hamas guys running between these sites if that's the IDF terrorist kill ratio.

IDF isn't some sort of second rate militia packing a few aks and 3 tanks,they have some of the best tech.Tech that should minimize,not maximize civ casualties.

They can't do better than this??Especially since they've been into this situation a lot of times in the past so it's not something exactly new for them.Sorry,but no,the human shield excuse doesn't fly anymore,they either target randomly not giving a rat's ass about civs or the command is highly incompetent(I doubt it's the former).

How can you estimate all the variables that are calculated into the collateral damage ratio? What expertise do you bring with you that allows you even to form such a bold statement? Have you ever looked into typical collateral damage of other nations at asymmetrical wars? you will be surprised that Israel has the highest ratio between combatants vs. civilians killing. This is just the "Israel is evil propaganda" talking out of your keyboard.

But whatever, what's your argument? Israel is deliberately targeting civilians? Is it plain negligence? If that's what you think please explain the motive here. Moral obligation aside (I suppose you don't think highly of Israel in this regard however it IS a strong factor) it is clear that the death of any civilian is against the Israeli interest, limiting its response, limiting the legitimacy of its retaliation, limiting the time frame in which it can act, so why would it even want that? Or are we at the Israel is evil argument indeed?

[krycek 349]

How can you estimate all the variables that are calculated into the collateral damage ratio? What expertise do you bring with you that allows you even to form such a bold statement? Have you ever looked into typical collateral damage of other nations at asymmetrical wars? you will be surprised that Israel has the highest ratio between combatants vs. civilians killing. This is just the "Israel is evil propaganda" talking out of your keyboard.

But whatever, what's your argument? Israel is deliberately targeting civilians? Is it plain negligence? If that's what you think please explain the motive here. Moral obligation aside (I suppose you don't think highly of Israel in this regard however it IS a strong factor) it is clear that the death of any civilian is against the Israeli interest, limiting its response, limiting the legitimacy of its retaliation, limiting the time frame in which it can act, so why would it even want that? Or are we at the Israel is evil argument indeed?

I never stated "Israel is evil" type of crap which you seem to believe if anyone is criticizing IDF.High civ casualties has nothing to do with only Israel but we're in a thread about them and Gaza conflict not civ casualties in Iraq War or other wars.Or it suddenly became acceptable since other countries did it?

I'm simply talking about numbers,civ casualties on palestinian side are always big compared with terrorists killed or even civ israeli casualties when Hamas is launching rocket attacks.Of course in a war you can't have 1:1 civ-enemy killed because people get stuck in there or other factors,but IDF always gets in there in a "show of force" and mostly only the civs suffer.

And it's quite funny if you think IDF goes in there to make a new status quo,they only help Hamas side be recruiting even more members when "civ casualties are acceptable losses".

I also never said they're deliberately targeting civilians,just that they don't care about them.

[mistyronin 1181]

I think that the big cultural difference between sides and the length of the conflict ( more than half a century ), makes it easier to "hate" the opposite side, and consider their civilians as "cannon fodder".

If you grow up learning to hate the opposite, how bad they are, how they have killed part of my family, how they are stealing our territory, etc. Not to talk about religious extremists.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Not to talk about religious extremists.

Both sides have hands tied by religious extremists.

[Variable 322]

Both sides have hands tied by religious extremists.

You must delusional or ill-informed if you think the level of religious fanaticism of Israel and Hamas are even remotely close. Israel is a parliamentary democracy, with a currently mostly right-wing secular government (which I strongly object). It's even the first time in years that the Jewish orthodox are not in the government. Hamas is a theocratic fundamentalist Islamic organization that rules with the sharia, the Islamic law.

I think that the big cultural difference between sides and the length of the conflict ( more than half a century ), makes it easier to "hate" the opposite side, and consider their civilians as "cannon fodder".

If you grow up learning to hate the opposite, how bad they are, how they have killed part of my family, how they are stealing our territory, etc. Not to talk about religious extremists.

This is nonsense. I served in the IDF for years and was never taught to hate our enemy. Of course there are undisciplined soldiers as in any Army but Israeli soldiers are educated on ethics and "pureness of arms" (with lack of any similar English term that I know of). Soldiers are encouraged to not follow orders that are illegal, and are protected by law if they don't.

There are extremist in Israel too, but they are not who sets the tone here.