Active Protection - Can We Implement it Without Being OP?

[the_demongod 31]

Hey all,

I was admiring the slammer and noticed that it has active protection radar modules on it.

It got me to thinking - Is there a way ArmA III could implement active protection without it just being a completely overpowered game breaking impenetrable force field?

Not going to lie, I think Active Protection is one of the cooler military technologies developed to date, but in a video game, it would be incredibly easy to have it end up like I described above - impenetrable, game breaking, etc.

What do you guys think? How would you nerf it to make it less of a god power?

ave,

the_Demongod

p.s. in case you don't know what active protection is, click

[Tonci87 163]

It realy depends on how well this gets implemented. I guess making it so that the system has a chance to intercept the missile based on missile speed, distance from wich it was fired and angle. The chance must not be 100% and the system should need a second to reload. A volley of missiles would therefore still be very effective.

[mihikle 2]

YES. If the real vehicle has it, then the game representation of that vehicle should have it as well. Sick of this 'balancing'! You would have to work around it by getting really close so it wouldn't have time to react. In my opinion if you're playing an Insurgent style mission, this could really make it a very interesting mission. It would also prevent shoulder mounted weapons such as the javelin to be too OP (which it is in real life! lol). I guess for those wanting a more arcade-like experience, something like this should be easily turned off with a script in the init field.

[alinixwissen 10]

Bakerman....atleast i think itsbhis Name Works von that feature and is pretty far With it

[paecmaker 23]

Well there are several things you can do.

1 have very limited ammunition

2 fairly long reload time

3 Not 100% accuracy

4 Blind zones.

5 not effective against other tank rounds

6 a minimum range

As I feel Active protection should be a chance to survive an otherwise fatal encounter with a missile. However tank crews should not have full confidence that they will always work. This way they will have more survivability yet enough shortcomings so tanks must work together with infantry and keep the flanks secure.

[roberthammer 582]

Basicly look at this > http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?161726-Armor-Improvement-System-(AIS)

and yes it can be done quite realistic way since the real systems are not magic

[CaptainObvious 95]

I'm all in favor for this if the devs find the time to do this properly sometime in the future.

Couple of pitfalls I see, it makes the already deadly armors even deadlier which might (will) break some missions pretty badly, and it will probably confuse players that are not that familiar with modern protection systems, although that's their problem really.

YES. If the real vehicle has it, then the game representation of that vehicle should have it as well. Sick of this 'balancing'! You would have to work around it by getting really close so it wouldn't have time to react. In my opinion if you're playing an Insurgent style mission, this could really make it a very interesting mission. It would also prevent shoulder mounted weapons such as the javelin to be too OP (which it is in real life! lol). I guess for those wanting a more arcade-like experience, something like this should be easily turned off with a script in the init field.

First you say you're sick of balancing and in the next phrase you suggest a way to balance it, does not compute. :confused:

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

The way this should be implemented, is the same way it is in real life. This would mean it can't be OP no matter what you do. Why? Because there are only so many chances you have to use it, plus reload time, and the fact that it won't save you from things such as close range RPG's, or someone walking up on with a satchel charge... and tank rounds. Though, another thing is at the current way arma is, i don't think it's possible to implement it, seeing as for the past... Arma life, the only thing tanks use is Smoke Screen. That's right, when you press your countermeasure key, all you get is smoke grenades that deploy all around the tank. It's great for blocking thermal vision for a little, and maybe concealing your movement at distances, but other than that, it's quite useless. You'll end up dead from a rocket if you try using smoke screen. Best bet is to get out before it hits.

Edited March 28, 2014 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[mihikle 2]

That's because that's the way it works in real life, generally when armies fight each other they usually have some way of beating an enemies protection measures. By balancing I mean not including it, as then tanks have no protection from weapons such as the Javelin. If it's naturally balanced in real life then have it in, if it's not, then don't fake it for the sake of what others perceive as good gameplay, as that factor is highly opinionated.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

That's because that's the way it works in real life, generally when armies fight each other they usually have some way of beating an enemies protection measures. By balancing I mean not including it, as then tanks have no protection from weapons such as the Javelin. If it's naturally balanced in real life then have it in, if it's not, then don't fake it for the sake of what others perceive as good gameplay, as that factor is highly opinionated.

This Quote^

Best thing ever. Balancing should never exist in a dynamic game such as Arma. PERIOD. But yeah, active protection would be cool to have, if done correctly.

[Sneakson 1]

I've never understood players speaking about "balancing" in ARMA.

Aren't 100% of all multiplayer missions (other than the 5-10-ish preincluded ones) made by players? So balance is up to the players entirely... there are no set maps with set vehicles and weapons such as in any competitive multiplayer shooter.

[CaptainObvious 95]

That's because that's the way it works in real life, generally when armies fight each other they usually have some way of beating an enemies protection measures. By balancing I mean not including it, as then tanks have no protection from weapons such as the Javelin. If it's naturally balanced in real life then have it in, if it's not, then don't fake it for the sake of what others perceive as good gameplay, as that factor is highly opinionated.

Got it, thanks for clarifying, and I agree.

[squirrel0311 16]

Well there is already a thread similar to this one but it mostly focuses on the radar which is something I wish was gone from tanks.

I do believe they should have a Situational Awareness Circle but not a radar. UNLESS!... There is an Air defense system within …eh…1km?…Then I’m ok with tanks having a radar because that information would be linked to them.

Also, ground vehicles shouldn’t show up on tank radar. They’ve tried that before and there is usually too much clutter. (Trees, buildings, cars, hills.)

As for active protection systems: Yes I would love to see them implemented but they should come with the ability to turn them off and adjust options just like the radar should.

This is how I would like to see it work… (You may disagree but I want you to read the bit about balancing at the end.)

First, every Heavy and maybe Medium armored vehicle would have an Early Warning Hub and an Active Protection System.

The EWH would sit on top of the turret and detects when your vehicle is being Radar scanned/locked, laser designated, or if you sustain a hit, which direction the shot came from. The down side would be that since it sits on top of the turret it would normally be destroyed after the first hit. This would give the crew a critical advantage by knowing the general direction of the threat but it wouldn’t hold their hand and turn them into an all seeing killing machine. For an added bit of realism…it could be disabled with an Anti-Material Rifle before the attack began. (Just like how vehicle optics should be. Check my wish list.)

Radar Scanning Aircraft: (This one is a maybe since it might be hard to make happen and I'm not really aware of any radar detection systems...at least none for tanks that work.)

When an enemy ATTACK helicopter gets within range to see your tank on their radar, the EWH would simply PING ONCE and a yellow light would display in the corner view finder/ dash interior. (Whenever that comes out…) This is simply to let you know a real air threat is present somewhere. If the helicopter leaves the area it must be gone for...10seconds for the system to ping again. Otherwise the light would just fade and come back. You should be able to disable the noise completely though. It shouldn’t ping for individual helicopters, just have it ping once if one or multiple attack helicopters are present. It also shouldn’t turn on for transport helicopters because most don’t usually run ground scanning radar.

Laser Designation/Radar Lock: When your tank is locked onto by a plane, helicopter, shoulder fired missile launcher, or being laser designated….. A red light should begin flashing accompanied by an alarm. This would give you the ability to deploy a smoke screen but… THE APS CANNOT SEE THROUGH YOUR SMOKE SCREEN. This means rockets fired into the smoke screen will hit you if you’re still sitting there.

Ideally there would be an optional feature to have it give you a general direction of the threat as well based on which side of the vehicle is picking up the signal, it could be changed to ignore friendly lasers at easier game modes too.

The APS destroys missiles and rockets, it has a limited number of reloads that can be completed from inside the vehicle (1 or 2 Max) and it should take 2-3 seconds for the system to reload those spent pods. It doesn't stop tank rounds and probably wont stop RKG-3's (Something I wish they had in the game.) I'm betting it would still be pretty effective even at close range against rockets and missles.... I think that if you got close enough to defeat it.. You'd probably catch something from the blast of the hit or the failed attempt by the APS. It should also injure friendlies within....eh 5m of whatever side it activates on. (That would be a good way to get kills, wait for APCs to unload troops and then fire so they're hit with your explosion plus their own.)

After the reloads have been used the APS must be Re-Armed at a Re-arming station or a truck. If you re-arm at a truck then someone should have to get out of the tank and do this. (None of that pull up next to a tank and re-arm from the safety of the vehicle, junk.)

Personally I don’t care if they all work the same way in game (In fact I might prefer it.) but I want them to at least look different. The Russian Arena system and the Israeli Trophy system both come to mind.

As far as using what is currently out….Well that’s fine but then again some systems are noticeably more lacking than others… I can’t help but think that those systems will probably have found ways to work around those shortcomings by the time 2035 gets here.

For instance….The Arena system does not self-reload and it uses (as far as I can remember) Radar to detect incoming missiles and rockets. This means it’s probably more susceptible to detection clutter.

The Israelis first had the Iron Fist and was later put aside in favor of the Trophy system. The Trophy System can reload itself and uses …Thermal and movement detection I think?.... I’m sure it still has flaws but it’s probably better than radar.

Balancing: I know lots of people say it’s the biggest problem with ArmA 3 but I disagree. Everyone has their own opinion on what the core or core feature of ArmA is but to me and a lot of others (Including ones who hate balancing.)…it is the EDITOR.

The editor gives you the ability to build your own scenario or even your own game without much knowledge or experience in the gaming field and then go play it by yourself or with friends.

The problem in my opinion isn’t balance but simply a lack of customizable options. Every faction should have comparably equal capable vehicles. And certain across the board features (The not accurate ones.) should come with the option to be easily disabled. If you want to make a lopsided mission with one mighty CSAT force and a few NATO guys running around on the other side with only pistols, then that is perfectly fine. It doesn’t mean that NATO shouldn’t have any tanks with machine guns or anything like that…just means that you shouldn’t put them in your mission.

If you’re talking about balance in the single player campaign then I might agree it’s bad and could easily kill the story. But if you’re talking in general and especially on a multiplayer level then I strongly disagree.

For instance if you’re playing a multiplayer game that gives players the ability to choose what they want to use (e.g. weapons, vehicles, etc…) everyone tends to instinctively choose the best stuff. If they can’t choose the best stuff then they instinctively want to be on the best team with the best stuff… Imagine playing on human teams as an insurgent or low budget military against the NATO or CSAT. You get machineguns and rocket launchers; they get tanks and planes with thermal and what not. You’re on an island…you’ve only got so many places to go…without balancing, a mission like that wouldn’t be very fun. (Goes back to that part about optics on tanks should be destroyable.)

The main thing is that all these features should come with the ability to easily turn them off or customize them in the editor. I’m not talking about typing in script either, I mean check the box for EWH. Check the box for APS. Click the tab to customize features.

(I wrote this out yesterday but couldn't post it. :/)

Edited March 29, 2014 by Squirrel0311

[paecmaker 23]

Also, the APS should be its own system, so it can break if its hit by something(like a shell or hmg fire).

[bakerman 247]

Hello,

It can be done, but to do it properly you have to go faaaaar beyond Bohemia's accepted level of simulation for the arma series. So I doubt it will ever be implemented into the game.

You'll just have to wait and see what I've been working on all this time. :)

[DJankovic 401]

I remember there was mod somewhere for arma 2 but i found this better :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugAGzrEEt-M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-jz_2YfTvQ