DirecxtX 12 for ArmA 3?

[Fushko 59]

Actually.... There's only one light source in Arma3 :)

You mean, only one light source that can have shadows.

[Brisse 78]

That's right. If you ignore that, then you can have plenty of light sources. Much more than "3 or 4" as stated by "calin_banc".

[KeyCat 131]

DX12 will fix issues regarding the rendering part. Basically will allow you to see further away and have more objects on screen, compared to DX11. Imagine Altis at full 12k, with furniture in houses and lots of stuff around the house that will finally resemble a real place and not just an airsoft battlefield. More so, you could have objects casting shadows from more than 3 or 4 light sources which in itself will bring a tremendous jump in visual fidelity and immersion. Plus, finally that pesky grass could be render as it should, close and far! :)

Of course, AI and physics will have to be themselves multithreaded and moved to the GPU as much as possible. That's the future.

You are hoping to much and setting yourself up for a big disapointment! I would be very surprised if DX12 is the "magic bullet" you are hoping for. Don't get me wrong, it will great if it happens but as I said before - the same song is played every time something new is announced and similar things was said when DX10 and DX11 was the "latest greatest".

Of course I can be totally wrong, only time will tell!

/KC

Edited January 27, 2015 by KeyCat

[old_painless 182]

Development wise, BI would have to remain compatible with non-DX 12 graphics cards. Ie. not for Arma 3 or current DayZ, but maybe for next generation

[dayglow 2]

From what I understand, dx12 is going to be backwards compatible with nvidia gpus as far back as the gtx460, not sure on amd gpus though.

For AMD I believe any Graphics Core Next GPU.

[calin_banc 19]

Actually.... There's only one light source in Arma3 :)

Only 1 that can cast shadows, as stated. Also, I've said "you could have objects casting shadows from more than 3 or 4 light sources" in regards to what most engines can do under DX11 accordingly to the guy in that article. Anyway, RV is so bad in that department that light goes through walls and other objects. Just blow up a car during night time outside a house, then walk in and enjoy the show. ;)

You are hoping to much and setting yourself up for a big disapointment! I would be very surprised if DX12 is the "magic bullet" you are hoping for. Don't get me wrong, it will great if it happens but as I said before - the same song is played every time something new is announced and similar things was said when DX10 and DX11 was the "latest greatest".

Of course I can be totally wrong, only time will tell!

/KC

Not really. It's more like what you can do under that API if you want to. Clearly more could have been done under DX11 as well, if Bohemia wanted. At first it would be just fine if we could maintain 60fps at decent settings. Let's be honest now, Day Z allows them to go as far as they wanna go.

Development wise, BI would have to remain compatible with non-DX 12 graphics cards. Ie. not for Arma 3 or current DayZ, but maybe for next generation

Not a problem, you can easily have DX11 and DX12 side by side.

[SpaceMarineITA 1]

If there is any performance improvement as with Mantle, especially in multi when CPU is really stressed, it would be great.

But having to upgrade to win10 would be annoying.

[chortles 263]

If there is any performance improvement as with Mantle, especially in multi when CPU is really stressed, it would be great.

But having to upgrade to win10 would be annoying.

On the other hand, it won't cost you if you get it soon...

[KeyCat 131]

On the other hand, it won't cost you if you get it soon...

Even if it will be free the first year there are other things to consider, at least for me personally.

Will my other (old'ish) hardware work? One example will be my TM Cougar HOTAS that costed me alot and that I use for both DCS, CloD and A3 work since TM does not update the drivers anymore?

/KC

[chortles 263]

If your computer can handle a virtual machine (VM) then you could also use the Technical Preview (expires April 15) to pre-emptively determine the answer to your questions.

[KeyCat 131]

Thanks for your concern Chortles, I have VM's and several older computers I can test it on when it's fully baked (have some other HW as well). I let the "youngsters" beta test (been there, done that many times) since I'm in no hurry to jump on the "latest greatest" anymore since newer does not necessary equals better - one example is Windows 8 :)

Just wanted to to point out that jumping from one Windows version to next isn't always as easy as 1, 2, 3 if you use your computer for other things than just gaming and/or have older SW/HW you need to work, MS usually have lots of drivers but not for everything.

/KC

Edited January 29, 2015 by KeyCat

[dayglow 2]

Even if it will be free the first year there are other things to consider, at least for me personally.

Will my other (old'ish) hardware work? One example will be my TM Cougar HOTAS that costed me alot and that I use for both DCS, CloD and A3 work since TM does not update the drivers anymore?

/KC

if there are W7 drivers then it would most likely work

[calin_banc 19]

Thanks for your concern Chortles, I have VM's and several older computers I can test it on when it's fully baked (have some other HW as well). I let the "youngsters" beta test (been there, done that many times) since I'm in no hurry to jump on the "latest greatest" anymore since newer does not necessary equals better - one example is Windows 8 :)

Just wanted to to point out that jumping from one Windows version to next isn't always as easy as 1, 2, 3 if you use your computer for other things than just gaming and/or have older SW/HW you need to work, MS usually have lots of drivers but not for everything.

/KC

Dual boot?

[KeyCat 131]

if there are W7 drivers then it would most likely work

All there is, is a Vista driver that works in W7 with a few tweaks.

Dual boot?

Could be an option but doesn't solve the HOTAS issue if drivers not works in W10. Of course HOTAS is not mandatory to fly in ArmA but when you already have them you want to use them.

Anyway, lets wait and see when/if DX12 arrives to ArmA. It will surely won't happen in the coming ~12-18 months, it will probably be a selling point for the next one like DX11 is for A3. BIS said they are going to release at least one expansion and eventually more DLC's to A3 so my guess it is more likely we are talking about ~3-5 years before we see ArmA 4 - if they decide to make it.

To add some perspective.... DX11 was released 2009 and it's not until recently there is support for it in titles like ArmA, DCS (still pending) etc. Things may be different with DX12, we don't know - only time will tell.

/KC

Edited January 30, 2015 by KeyCat

[calin_banc 19]

To add some perspective.... DX11 was released 2009 and it's not until recently there is support for it in titles like ArmA, DCS (still pending) etc. Things may be different with DX12, we don't know - only time will tell.

/KC

Dx11 was another matter altogether. Consoles weren't playing at the same level as they will do now (dx9 - sort of, vs dx10 or dx11 compared now to dx12 and the consoles versions API). Of course, it doesn't mean game developers will jump the boat and start making photo realistic games, but the foundation will be set at least for a great performance from the start.

Probably after performance, what I'm most exited about is the potential for multi GPU scaling and the lack of input lag/stutter. Check it out, 4xr290x 8GB feeling smoother than 1 under dx11. (4k @120fps FTW! :D ).

[linuxmaster9 101]

The day ArmA forces me to buy Windows 10 is the day I stop playing ArmA. IMO, BI would be better off implementing the OpenGL Next API instead of forcing DX12 down people's throats. Both APIs have the same features. OpenGL Next on the other hand is cross-platform and is built in to ALL GPUs regardless of Operating System. Heck, before DX was built, OpenGL was the game API standard. Everything DX can do, OpenGL can do. Micro$haft has DX12 and the KhronosGroup has OpenGL Next. Even Microsoft supports OpenGL.

https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/events/Next-Generation-OpenGL-Dec14.pdf

If ArmA (say 4) had OpenGL Next (or whatever the final name is) API support, then ArmA could finally become cross-platform and come to the alternative OS masses (Linux, Mac). If BI made the Linux client OpenSource, (not gratis) the Linux community could easily debug any issues and take a big load off BI's shoulders. Evidence shows that the Linux community will gladly help make software work better. Look at Unreal Engine 4. Linux Users are already submitting bug reports and solutions to Epic. The UE4 Benchmarks run in OpenGL. They are amazing. I recently ran the UE4 benchmarks on my rig in Ubuntu 14.04.1 64-bit with the proprietary AMD Omega drivers and got a solid 75 FPS on ultra settings. OpenGL FTW.

Edited January 31, 2015 by LinuxMaster9

[dayglow 2]

Well technically you won't be forced to buy it as it will be a free upgrade.

[chortles 263]

That would require dev leadership to be interested in going cross-platform, which BI has also to date not exhibited...

[linuxmaster9 101]

Windows 10 will be free to upgrade for the 1st year if you own a copy of Windows 7, 8, or 8.1. After the 1st year, you have to buy it. Also, BI does not have to be interested in going cross-platform to use OpenGL. OpenGL is one API for all operating systems and hardware. Instead of having DirectX, Mantle, etc. You just have OpenGL with extensions. OpenGL is built into ALL Operating systems and graphics cards. OpenGL next will have bare to the metal coding and optimizations too. In fact, OpenGL 4.4 is a superset of DirectX 11. OpenGL 4.5 goes beyond DirectX 11.

[Brisse 78]

LinuxMaster9: I'm sure you know a lot, but you seem to think that you know everything. There are a few false statements in your post.

OpenGL is one API for all operating systems and hardware...OpenGL is built into ALL Operating systems and graphics cards

Not true. It's free and open software so anyone is free to use it in their operating system, but that does not mean it's built into all operating systems, or even graphic cards.

OpenGL next will have bare to the metal coding and optimizations too

This is a saying used by marketing people, and has no technical meaning at all. There is no bare to metal coding. It's not what Mantle or DX12 does. It's basically BS made up to sell more graphics cards and software. If they were to do "bare to metal coding" they would do graphics in something like assembly programming language. That's not going to happen, ever. What Mantle and DX12 does is to enable more than one CPU thread to feed graphics instructions to the GPU at the same time.

[linuxmaster9 101]

LinuxMaster9: I'm sure you know a lot, but you seem to think that you know everything. There are a few false statements in your post.

Not true. It's free and open software so anyone is free to use it in their operating system, but that does not mean it's built into all operating systems, or even graphic cards.

This is a saying used by marketing people, and has no technical meaning at all. There is no bare to metal coding. It's not what Mantle or DX12 does. It's basically BS made up to sell more graphics cards and software. If they were to do "bare to metal coding" they would do graphics in something like assembly programming language. That's not going to happen, ever. What Mantle and DX12 does is to enable more than one CPU thread to feed graphics instructions to the GPU at the same time.

A better way to say it would have been that all modern graphics cards support OpenGL. But OpenGL is built in to all modern and older operating systems. When was the last time you had to install OpenGL drivers to play a game that uses OpenGL? Never. Linux has OpenGL libraries you can install for development purposes but if you take a game like xonotic or nexuiz which use OpenGL, you don't have to install OpenGL to play them.

As far as Bare metal coding, If none of that stuff happens with these new APIs then why do we hear all about it with DX 12 and Mantle? Sure it is marketing hype but still, there has to be some kind of truth to the story. Maybe not bare-metal coding but close to the metal?

And no, I don't think I know everything. I'm just autistic.

[Brisse 78]

As far as Bare metal coding, If none of that stuff happens with these new APIs then why do we hear all about it with DX 12 and Mantle? Sure it is marketing hype but still, there has to be some kind of truth to the story. Maybe not bare-metal coding but close to the metal?

Because the marketing people have to make something up that sounds good in the mind of someone without deep technical knowledge. The "close to metal" saying is so vague, that it does not really mean anything, and thus it's not something they can get sued for.

Someone posted a link earlier explaining what the new API's actually do. I will put it here for your convenience: http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/460524/DirectX_11_vs_DirectX_12_oversimplified

[linuxmaster9 101]

Because the marketing people have to make something up that sounds good in the mind of someone without deep technical knowledge. The "close to metal" saying is so vague, that it does not really mean anything, and thus it's not something they can get sued for.

Someone posted a link earlier explaining what the new API's actually do. I will put it here for your convenience: http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/460524/DirectX_11_vs_DirectX_12_oversimplified

Thanks. That does sound nice but do you know of any other posts ot something that better explains the OpenGL Next method? From looking at their hardware/software partners (of which there are many) it seems there is more support for OpenGL than there is for DirectX since DX is for Windows only.

[Armitxes 36]

Thanks. That does sound nice but do you know of any other posts ot something that better explains the OpenGL Next method? From looking at their hardware/software partners (of which there are many) it seems there is more support for OpenGL than there is for DirectX since DX is for Windows only.

Irrelevant. Gaming = Windows. MacOS isn't meant for such gaming nor supported by most graphic cards. Linux variants are also restricted (undeveloped) when it comes to gaming. Other OS are irrelevant. You have to look into the future, DX12 allows Arma to develop futher. Microsoft (/Xbox) already said in they will focus more on gaming than ever b4 with Windows 10 and DX12, even allowing Xbox games be played on PC and vice-versa.

[linuxmaster9 101]

Irrelevant. Gaming = Windows. MacOS isn't meant for such gaming nor supported by most graphic cards. Linux variants are also restricted (undeveloped) when it comes to gaming. Other OS are irrelevant. You have to look into the future, DX12 allows Arma to develop futher. Microsoft (/Xbox) already said in they will focus more on gaming than ever b4 with Windows 10 and DX12, even allowing Xbox games be played on PC and vice-versa.

I believe the actual statement made was that you could STREAM Xbox one games from the console to the PC. Not stick the XBone games in the PC and play them. Also, Linux variants are NOT restricted when it comes to gaming. If a Dev wrote a .bin file or .run file for Linux, it would translate to all the major distros. If the developer made the source for the client program open and released it so that the different distro repository maintainers could compile it for their respective distros, the client would work on every distro it compiles for. The client is open, the content is not. The same way for most commercial games on Linux. ex: Doom3, Prey, Civilization Beyond Earth. You can install the client but can't play the game without the missing content that comes when you buy the game. Gaming != Windows. Gaming is on Windows because that is what developers have been writing on for a while now. AAA Gaming is beginning to move to other platforms now. Indie gaming has long been on Linux and other OpenSource platforms. Open your closed mind. Microsoft has claimed in the past that they were going to focus on PC gaming even more than the last time. What did we get? Games for Windows Live. Did that last? NOPE! It sucked horse malarkey.